Talk:Sidney Hill/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI (talk · contribs) 09:39, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gricharduk, Amkgp, I intend to review this article over the course of the next few days. For your information, my time zone is UTC+05:30, and I am usually active for an hour before noon and for some time in the evening. I don't usually check my watchlist, so always ping me here or on my talk page if you want me to look in. Regards, Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI ^{converse | fings wot i hav dun} 09:39, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's very kind of you to review the article Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI - Thank you very much. I will keep a watch on this page. Gricharduk (talk) 09:49, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI, thanks for taking up the review. Do let us know your concerns if any during the review. — Amkgp 💬 12:17, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
Proper reference section present, checked for copyvio with Earwig Copyvio Detector.
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
Covers Hill's entire life.
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
POV parts cleaned up.
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
No edit wars, single editor effort.
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Well-illustrated, no non-free images.
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

These are my preliminary observations. I'll delve deeper into the article now. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI ^{converse | fings wot i hav dun} 12:19, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

General comments

@Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI: any new updates ? — Amkgp 💬 05:10, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Amkgp, Gricharduk, most of the changes marked

are prose-related, and I believe fixing up the prose will get them all passed. For the prose, I intend to do a checklist-style review, as below - I don't want to clutter the overall checklist above. I'll expand it with more sections as I read through the prose. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI ^{converse | fings wot i hav dun} 06:53, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI:, We have made the necessary changes as suggested — Amkgp 💬 08:46, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gricharduk, Amkgp, thank you for your changes, I'm satisfied. I've gone through the whole rest of the prose, and I have listed all my concerns and suggested improvements below. The list is kinda long, so do take your time to go through each of them thoroughly, especially the ones I've said need large changes. As always, if there are any questions, or status updates, or info, ping me. If you believe I am mistaken somewhere, do tell me. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI ^{converse | fings wot i hav dun} 16:41, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI:, We have completed addressing all the concerns and suggestion made. — Amkgp 💬 10:16, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gricharduk, Amkgp, congratulations, Sidney Hill is now a GA. For this well-researched and detailed article, thank you both! Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI ^{converse | fings wot i hav dun} 14:15, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's fabulous news - Thank you very much for your time and thorough review Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI. Your intelligent suggestions have really improved the article and it is very much appreciated. I also wanted to thank Amkgp: He reviewed and accepted the original article (my first for Wikipedia), and with his kind words and advice, encouraged me to make it better. He has been very supportive throughout the entire review process - an absolute credit to Wikipedia. Thank you very much Amkgp and Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI. Gricharduk (talk) 14:47, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Prose

Lead

I'll come to this in the end, after cleaning up the rest of the article, because the lead is essentially a summary of the article. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI ^{converse | fings wot i hav dun} 06:54, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No matter,I've cleaned up the lead myself, just a small bit. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI ^{converse | fings wot i hav dun} 14:16, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

Second paragraph, make it just 'Sidney', not 'Sidney Hill'.

Gricharduk I have made it just 'Sidney' as per suggestion and MOS:STYLE — Amkgp 💬 08:45, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are Thomas Francis Christopher May and William Hunt very notable characters in Hill's life? I don't see any mention of them anywhere else in the article (except the church dedication for May), they do not seem to be his biographers, nor do they themselves have Wikipedia articles. It looks oddly out-of-place to describe people not immediately relevant to Hill in the article about Hill himself. I suggest removing their names from the Early Life section altogether; many sources might mention their friendship alright but the friends themselves are simply not notable enough. You can just add "...Christopher May, a lifelong friend of Hill" in the table entry for the Methodist church. If those other two are notable, though, I suggest redlinking their names now, and creating their articles in the near future. Carefully read the guidelines for notability of the friends (you're both more experienced than I am, so I think you've understood).

Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI, Amkgp I could not agree more - and a very good spot! I made a recent change to those sentences to move them from an end footnote to the main body, but they do look very "awkward". Neither Thomas Francis Christopher May, nor William Hunt, are notable, so I have a) moved Thomas Francis Christopher May to an end footonote (he still has some relevance I believe) b) removed William Hunt and the reference attached to him (not notable and only one source naming him as a friend) c) moved William Bobbett's friendship from an end footnote to the body (he is highly relevant) d) made name and pronoun changes to that paragraph e) combined into a single paragraph. It would be great if you could review my changes to see if you are happy with them. Many thanks Gricharduk (talk) 08:27, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Early years

Wikilink New Zealand, as it's the first occurrence of the term.

Gricharduk has wiki-linked the name of the country. — Amkgp 💬 09:02, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"...Algoa Bay, Port Elizabeth, he decided to remain in South Africa" -> "...Algoa Bay, Port Elizabeth, South Africa, he decided to remian there." "Algoa Bay" is not a term known to most people; they might not know it's in SA.

Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI, Amkgp Good points. I have made these changes Gricharduk (talk) 07:31, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

One more thing in the Early years section

First paragraph, last sentence can be made more succinct - leave out the word 'unfortunately' (I'm not heartless :-) it's just that it isn't encyclopaedic), and do away with the brackets and just make it "...the death of his 73-year-old mother on 31 March 1857". You can add "... 1857, which left him bereaved." after that if you want, I think Mary Ann's memorial sketch by Caldecott mentions that he indeed was.

I have updated as suggested. — Amkgp 💬 05:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Marriage

This is one of two sections where I feel large-ish changes are necessary; bear with me.

There isn't a need to mention his in-laws' lifespans, nor his mother-in-law's maiden name. Maybe make the sentence just say 'John Winter Bobbett and his wife Frances'.

I have updated as suggested. Gricharduk (talk) 06:31, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The last line, describing Caldecott, isn't necessary - it belongs in Caldecott's own article, not here. Indeed, I have a feeling even John Winter's being a radical Liberal and a Quaker are not necessary to be mentioned, but I'm fine with continuing with it in the article if you want it to be there. It's just that it might clutter the section, especially considering my next point below.

Caldecott - I moved this recently from an end footnote into the body. Rather than remove it entirely, as I think it makes an interesting observation on the type of friends Hill kept, I have moved back to a footnote. This way it out of the body text but an interested reader can still read the footnote if they so wish. As suggested, I have removed "John Winter's being a radical Liberal and a Quaker" etc., and removed the associated reference as it is not cited anywhere else in the article Gricharduk (talk) 06:31, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The whole section kind of goes back-and-forth. I suggest moving the Caldecott-best-man sentence to just after the second sentence, after "...Wesleyan Chapel, Somerset". Put in a line break after that, so that the next paragraph can act as a short biography of Mary Ann. Then after the sentence ending with "...Old Market, Bristol", add "Mary Ann had been educated at the Quaker Friends' Boarding School at Sidcot and at the Quaker Mount School in York. When she returned to Bristol, she became a housekeeper for her uncle...", and continue it with the rest of the stuff about William Bobbett. As I said, there is no need for the sentence about J. W. being a Quaker and a radical Liberal.

I have updated as suggested. Gricharduk (talk) 06:31, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"They shared a staunch belief in..." -> "Bobbett and Sidney Hill shared a staunch belief in..."

I have updated as suggested. Gricharduk (talk) 06:31, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Life in South Africa

"They spent six months in London before Hill's business took them..." -> "The Hills spent six months in London before Sidney's business took them..."

I have updated as suggested. — Amkgp 💬 05:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Death of wife

"died at 5:38 pm on 7 December" -> "died in the evening of 7 December" - more conversational.

I have updated as suggested. — Amkgp 💬 05:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Return to England

"In mourning" -> "In mourning after Mary Ann's/his wife's death"

I have updated as suggested. — Amkgp 💬 05:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Stock breeding

Change the title to 'livestock breeding', a better known term.

I have changed the title as suggested. — Amkgp 💬 05:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Furthering the work of the church

Perhaps make the title "Work for the Methodist Church", that way, it's more succinct, and clarifies which church he furthered the work of.

I have changed the title as suggested. — Amkgp 💬 05:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You don't have to italicise the names of any of the buildings.

I have removed italizations of name as suggested and per MOS:STYLE. — Amkgp 💬 05:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Then came a manse to replace the one at Axbridge... a furnished chapel at Cheddar. All of these were gifted by Hill..." -> "A manse to replace the one at Axbridge... a furnished chapel at Cheddar were all gifted by Hill, including the furnishings..." Makes the sentence flow continuously. Oh and wikilink 'manse'.

I have updated and wiki-linked 'manse' as suggested. — Amkgp 💬 05:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Other charitable acts

"The two upstairs rooms of the office were full of household items..."

I have updated as suggested. — Amkgp 💬 05:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Public life

"parish responsibilities such as president of the Churchill football and cricket clubs." I believe this should be "such as being president"?

I have updated as suggested. — Amkgp 💬 05:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wikilink justice of the peace; it isn't a term many people know, and the first mention (and wikilink) of it is in the lead, which will have been long past passed by by the time any reader got this far into the article.

I have updated and wiki-linked 'justice of the peace' as suggested. — Amkgp 💬 05:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"He lent a field free of charge for their use"... where was the field? In the Langford House grounds? Elsewhere? Just clarify within that same sentence.

I think its the Langford House grounds and added it for clarity. I think Gricharduk would agree to this.— Amkgp 💬 05:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed - It was in Langford House grounds and the pitch is still used by Bristol Veterinary School today. Gricharduk (talk) 13:41, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Death and funeral

"His thigh seemed to be healing and the splints were removed after four weeks." -> "After four weeks, his thigh seemed to be healing, and the splints were removed."

I have updated as suggested. — Amkgp 💬 05:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"and other villages: Such were the number of mourners that..." -> "and other villages; there were so many mourners that..." It's a semicolon that comes there, and the grammar can be simplified.

I have updated as suggested. — Amkgp 💬 05:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"which included the nine gardeners"... have the gardeners been referenced before in the article? Since they don't seem to have been, I suggest removing "the", so it's just "included nine gardeners".

I have updated as suggested. — Amkgp 💬 05:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy

This is the second place where I believe some changes are due. Citation number 24, More Stories From Langford: History and tales of houses and families by Peter Archer, speaks of Hill in extremely positive terms. While I too agree that Hill's life and works were commendable, we must follow WP:NPOV, and these sentences, I feel, are not NPOV:

but he meant more than this to the late-19th century poor; he was the difference between life and death, good health and sickness

and the entirety of the last paragraph of the section.
Could you, perhaps, quote verbatim the relevant sections, namely pages 234 and 235, of the source? I might be able to suggest changes better if I know what the source we are quoting says.

Updated and agreed: On refection, it is certainly not WP:NPOV.

but he meant more than this to the late-19th century poor; he was the difference between life and death, good health and sickness

a version of this was written by Peter Archer in More Stories From Langford: History and tales of houses and families on Page 34, where he talks about the "wretched commoners" and "extraordinary rich legacy" etc. I tried to tone this down as Peter Archer was very, very enthusiastic about Sidney in his book! Also, he was often factually incorrect, for example, he got Mary Ann's birth date wrong by 10 years, so perhaps I should have been even more circumspect about some his writings. Okay, so I have changed that sentence to read "Hill's memory lives on in the legacy of buildings that he erected, but he meant more than this to some of his neighbours". This leads nicely into the quote from Ronald Bailey. Note, I have also removed "rich" from "rich legacy". I have also removed the following sentences (it is easier because Archer's text is even more enthusiastic): "Sidney Hill put into practice the beliefs of Wesley; to lead a healthy life doing good, feeding and clothing those in need, earning, saving and giving what he could, and seeking justice. Furthermore, his charitable acts honoured the memory of his late wife, Mary Ann, a devout Methodist, whom he missed deeply after her early death". I have retained the last two sentences but removed "it is clear": "Nonetheless, Hill's wealth came from trade with southern Africa and it is not certain to what extent his fortune was amassed at the expense of others. On balance, however, it is thought likely that his business dealings as a merchant were without reproach. Certainly, that whatever his attitudes as a younger man, he later shared his wealth with the less fortunate." I am very willing to quote Archer but I am not sure what it would add. Gricharduk (talk) 07:08, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No matter Gricharduk, I am satisfied. Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI ^{converse | fings wot i hav dun} 13:26, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Philanthropic works

"ministers' houses in this country and in South Africa" -> "ministers' houses in England and South Africa". Has the current sentence been copied verbatim from somewhere?

Good spot. I had to look through my references to find it. Part of that sentence comes from Leeming (1977), p. 42, "ministers' houses in this country and abroad" (Leeming did not state "South Africa") and the South African part came from his funeral report in the Western Daily Press. I have amended it based on your suggestion. Gricharduk (talk) 07:51, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Forgive me, but I have no idea - what is a 'mother's house', and what was the 'Homes for Little Boys'? (also, no italics needed for that)

Working on this - I didn't know what they meant until I read the newspaper report. "mother's house" is where the "guardian/nurse" to the orphaned children lived. 'Homes for Little Boys' was an orphanage - The orphanage is mentioned briefly in the history section of the Hextable article. I might need to find some more references to explain what these terms mean - I will get back to you here when done. Gricharduk (talk) 07:51, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed the sentence in the opening paragraph to read "and also furnished and endowed a house at Homes for Little Boys, a former orphanage near Swanley, Kent." I will then explain in the table what a "mother's house" is.Gricharduk (talk) 08:44, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI: @Amkgp: Okay this has now been edited and I believe all the review comments have been addressed. Gricharduk (talk) 10:04, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the table, I believe you've forgotten to add 'a lifelong friend of Hill' for Thomas May :-)

I have updated as suggested. Gricharduk (talk) 07:40, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I have removed the Bibliography section. It was only required for a footnote on Alfred Stone (musician) and I note his Wikipedia article already mentions the book ('Bristol Tune Book').Gricharduk (talk) 10:48, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI, Amkgp Wow! That's what I call a thorough review. Thank you so much for your efforts here. If you don't mind, I will look at each point in detail tomorrow morning (it's nearly 5:00 pm here in the UK and I am going to head home in about 30 minutes) and I will then respond under each point. Still, what fantastic effort by you Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI - it can only improve the article further. Have a great evening. Gricharduk (talk) 16:50, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.