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Nomination?

Should this be nominated to Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars? Just get over it. It is completely irrelevant what the article title is, as long as all versions of the name are mentioned. --Vuo (talk) 09:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Quit your chauvinistic rants, no Tibetian would like to be referred as "Chinese who resides in Tibet", nor no Kurd wants to be referred as "Mountain Turk". This should be matter of persons who have previously identified as members of the Finland-Swedish minority to decide. The term should be closest to the language of the given minority, it should be not subjected under the speculation of the hostile majority with little interest to distinguish the peculiar characters of the minority, especially not in the case of Finland-Swedes who are subjected to severe conspicious from the behalf of the Finnish majority, due to historical burderns, as my citat above explains.
My proposal is Finland-Swedes, which is consistent with "Sweden Finns", "Estonian Swedes", "Volga-Germans" etc, that is the term in consistant with general naming principles of Northern European minorities, plus it the closest to original Swedish form of "finlandssvenskar" and the original title of the article. However, I am willing to compromise with Osli73´s proposal of "Swedish-speaking minority of Finland", given that it receives supportPodomi (talk) 09:56, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Don't make ad hominem attacks, people who do so are stupid. ... Anyway, please recognize the extreme lameness of this sort of debate as seen by the outsider. --Vuo (talk) 15:21, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
You can't compare the situation of the swedish-speaking minority in finland (finlandsvenskar) with the kurdish minority in Turkey (and Iraq, Iran and Syria). In Turkey, the kurdish language and expression of kurdish culture has been banned since the modern state of Turkey was founded. As we all know, this isn't the situation in Finland. The main organisations representing the swedish-speakers sees no conflict in being part of the linguistic minority (finlandsvenskar), with its own cultural expressions, and being a finn as everyone else. This is also the most common view represented within the swedish-speakers themselves, according too the polls refered to in all the articles regarding the issue here on wikipedia. People who themselves belong to the minority has expressed similar views in this discussion above. You clearly are not representive for those who you are trying to represent, Podomi.
Nationhood and identity is all about self-identification, nothing else, and you can't impose your own classifications on people who dont want them (your freqvent use of genetic studies on this matter is quite embarrising). What's your next step, walkin up to a french-speaking swiss and tell him that he belongs to another people than his german-speaking swiss fellow on the basis of language and descent? This is a quite more striking comparision than the one you made with the kurds.
Lastly, i'd like to answer to the thing you said about "Finland-Swedes who are subjected to severe conspicious from the behalf of the Finnish majority, due to historical burderns, as my citat above explains.". Almost a week ago, the organisation Magma, which you refered to earlier in this discussion as a "Finland-Swedish Think-Thank", published a poll where the finnish-speakers had been asked about their views on biliungualism, the swedish-speaking minority, language etc. The results of this poll contradicts your statement above severly.
According to the poll the majority of the finnish-speakers says that the swedish language is a important part of finnish society, that it would be a loss if the language and culture disappeared, that leading politicians should know how to speak the swedish language, etc. etc. [1] [2] --WorldsBestCarlsson (talk) 00:52, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


Dear Podomi, I believe that your edit warring and and over-long posts are genuinely embarassing for the traditional Swedish-speaking minority in Finland. You are not a champion of the finlandssvenskar, only of your personal opinion.--130.234.5.136 (talk) 10:44, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Dear, anonymous, lets put ad hominens aside and debate the subject. My views certainly are embarassing for the Swedish political interest groups affiliated with the Finnish goverment, and the message these institution are feeding for the majority. Whether my views are embrassing for the majority of the members of Swedish minority in Finland is another story, whether you are sincerely interested in the neutrality of wiki is another story as well.
På tal om den finlandssvenska identitesdebatten (Håkan Eklund)
"Poängen är den att genuina kustsvenskar med rötter i den gränsöverskridande svenska kultur som ännu lever och mår bra längs den österbottniska kusten, på Åland och i skärgårdssamhällen längs sydkusten, med naturliga kontakter till ursprungskulturen i Sverige, inte har något behov av att ifrågasättas av urbana finlandssvenskar i storstadsområdet. Det är lätt att förstå varför ålänningarna inte vill kalla sig finlandssvenskar; kanske termen finlandssvensk inte längre är vad den varit?"
"FÖR ÅBOLÄNNINGAR, österbottningar och ålänningar är det fortfarande en del av vardagen att leva som ett gränsfolk med starka band till kusten och kulturen i Sverige, och många känner sig mera hemma i Umeå och Stockholm än i Helsingfors".
"Det är också att märka att våra kust- och skärgårdsbor mera sällan syns och hörs i identitetsdebatten, eftersom de inte ser någon orsak att debattera självklarheter. De vet vem de är och var de har sina skandinaviska ursprungsrötter, både historiskt och kulturellt sett.
Leif Höckerstedt, 2000. Helsingfors uni
"Det är naturligt att betona Sverige-kontakten då man gör en analys av finlandssvenskarnas språk, kommunikation och historia. Ideologiskt kommer det att närma sig Axel Olof Freudenthals bygdessvenskhet och Sverige närheten kring sekelsskiftet. Finlandssvenskarna är ju helt enkelt svenskar, närmare bestämt östsvenskar."
Unless our debate falls in the this level, I considered it finnish, and thus I will change the title to Osli´s73 compromise, I am sure that´s ok for all you guys?Podomi (talk) 11:28, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Vuo, I think a nomination might be suitable. This edit war has been a low-intensity conflict for over two years now, and it takes place in the fi-Wikipedia, too. --MPorciusCato (talk) 16:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
I checked, and it seems this edit war is on also in the sv-Wikipedia. --MPorciusCato (talk) 16:40, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Actually we should try some form of dispute resolution first, but I don't know which mechanism to select. There is no need for overt administrator action. Instead, we should recruit disinterested third parties, preferably native English speakers, who know little about the subject beforehand, to say which term seems most natural to an English-speaker. The last thing we need is a Finland-Swedish svekomanic vs. nationalist fight --Vuo (talk) 15:21, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Proposed lame edit war description:
The title of the article is Finland-Swedes Swedish-speaking Finns Finland-Swedes Swedish-speaking Finns Finland's Swedes Swedish-speaking Finns Swedish-speaking minority in Finland Swedish-speaking population in Finland Swedish-speaking Finns Finlandssvenskar Swedish-speaking Finns, or maybe Swedes in Finland or Swedish Finns today depending on the phase of the moon and location of the planets. The page has been move-protected. The dispute is over how finlandssvenskar translates to English.

Any other ideas? --Vuo (talk) 10:12, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Straw poll

To avoid the usual trench warfare, I suggest we have a non-binding straw poll on the naming topic. Please add your votes/comments below (but pls keep them brief).

Howabout if we just retain the article as how it was, Finland-Swedes, a member of this minority has expressed his views already two years ago, "Don't expect the article to be changed. It has been kidnapped by Finnish nationalist who use it to present their nationalist double standard views, regardless of what the Finland Swedes think themselves". I think this is the worst aspect of every Finland-Swedish related article, the extremely low-self confidenced finns who pop into every thread with notions of the Swedish minority in order to boost their fennno propaganda derivived of low self-confidence, the historical burden and the Finland-Swedish status as the sterotyped aristocracy of the country. It ain´t cool when the bold and beautiful of the country are representing different ethnicity than the finnic majority, however that´s the way it is.128.214.30.77 (talk) 18:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Swedish-speaking Finns

We expect only contribution from registered users with history in wiki, otherwise, I could log into every online cafeteria in the city and contribute and we´d have the original title of Finland-Swedes retained. As said we cannot just let any random, non-registered low self-confidenced finns to push their fenno chauvinistic views. Nice try. LOL. Anyway, the new Non-govermental Finland-Swedish think thank magma, (Finlands svenska tankesmedjan, Finland’s Swedish Think Tank, http://www.magma.fi/) uses the term Finland-Swedish. The organization is financed by the almost every non-govermental Finland´s Swedish foundation (Svenska Kulturfonden, Svenska folkskolans vänner, Föreningen Konstsamfundet, Stiftelsen Åbo Akademi and Sparbanksstiftelsen i Helsingfors) and is currently the only Finland-Swedish think thank, a non-govermentally affiliated interest group of Finland-Swedes. Should we just ignore this newly founded big Finland-Swedish actor?Podomi (talk) 19:21, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Well now I'm registered, and got the right to an opinion on this issue as much as you do. In fact, I don't like the way you debate this subject, your tone is aggressive and inpolite and you're very much behaving like a fanatic. I'm not a "random low self-confidenced finn" who push my "fenno chauvinistic views". Stop throwing junk at anyone who happens to have another opinion on this than you. You should also know there's a reason to why Osli73 said the comments in this poll was to be kept brief, this is because discussion was to be kept out of it. However, i must comment on the Magma Think-thank you mension. I can't find one article or phrase on their website that tell us their opinion on how we should name the swedish-speaking minority, finlandssvenskar, in english. In fact, the only thing I find regarding the issue at all is an article (in swedish) which even criticeses the use of the term finlandssvenskar (!) when talking about the minority. In article the term "svenskspråkiga", "swedish-speaking" is used. --WorldsBestCarlsson (talk) 22:54, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Finland Swedes

  • Oppose: this implies that Swedish speakers are really ethnic Swedes (who just happen to live in Finland). Since this is controversial and very much a judgement call we should avoid it.Osli73 (talk) 12:25, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Conditionally support: This name is mostly a result of bad English, but it is still used. Those who use it intentionally, however, make up a very minor group. --MPorciusCato (talk) 16:29, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Do you have a source for the notion of minor group? Most Finland-Swedes reside in Ostrobotnia, Åboland archipelago and Åland islands, do you seriously think these would settle with "Swedish-speaking Finn" when already half of the members of the given geographical location refer themselves with a term equivalent to english tranlation of "East-Swedes".Podomi (talk) 17:18, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Swedish speaking minority in Finland

  • Support: this is a good compromise between the above that does not make a judgement on whether or not Swedish speakers are ethnic Finns or ethnic Swedes. This can be dealt with in greater detail in the article text.Osli73 (talk) 12:25, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support: Finland-Swedes, the most natural term and consistent with the naming principles of Northern European minorities such as Sweden-Finns. The term Finland-Swedes, imply ethnicity of Finland-Swedes, which is Swedish, it does not take a stance on whether the given person who belongs to the minority see him/her-self as Swedish in the nationalistic sense. However, I understand the taboo-laden character of Swedishness in Finland and thus I give my support for Osli´s compromise as well.Podomi (talk) 13:40, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose: As as compromise solution, this term might seem a good choice. However, it is against Wikipedia naming convention, as it is not a widely used English name for this group. --MPorciusCato (talk) 16:27, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support: Not ideal, but the best compromise this far.JdeJ (talk) 14:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia´s naming convention should convey neutrality. The only term which can express Swedishness as cultural phenomenon (finlandssvenskhet) is the term Finland-Swedish, or has someone heard about "swedish-speaking finnishness?", that´s why the term is rarely used in the academia. Also as said the term is consistent with general naming priciples of Northern European minorities, Sweden Finns, Volga-Germans..etc no use to accuse of bad english. We cannot give political parties monopoly over the issue of Finland-Swedish terminology, especially when not a single" finlandssvenska NGO" uses the term.Podomi (talk) 17:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Withhold: I wish more members of this particular group with proficiency in English would express an opinion. I am willing to go with any (English language) designation and article name chosen by the group itself. I realise that the problem in this approach too are the semantics. They don't go hand in hand in the four language usages involved here and will unavoidably result in asymmetries. Despite of this, I guess the only plausible approach is self-designation even in a foreign language. Clarifer (talk) 19:29, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
I have provided citats from several academic publications authored by Finland-Swedes who were using the term.
Carl O Nordling has elaborated on the issue, "Less well known internationally is the 6 percent minority of ethnic Swedes in Finland. While we never hear of "Sami speaking Norwegians", "Hebrew speaking Palestinians" etc., one often stumbles on the term "Swedish speaking Finns" to denote a certain group of ethnic Swedes. This is a way of denying the group their ethnic identity. Admittedly, something similar is practised in Turkey, where the Kurds are called "Mountain Turks" in official quarters".
I would like to point out that the numbers of the minority who are not comfortable with "Swedish-speaking finn" significantly outnumber those who are comfortable with "Finland-Swedes", Finland-Swede as a term is most neutral for the community and that´s why not single non-govermental interest group of Finland-Swedes uses "Swedish-speaking finn". Only the finnic members seem to be strongly in favour of "Swedish-speaking finn" as the Swedishness is considered sensitive issue for finns who´d like to see the minority eventually assimilated or atleast definitely not making fuss of their Swedishness. No one cares about the Roma or Sami minority and thus these folks are free to express their ethnicity how they wish, and no Finn is editing the Sami article as "Sami speaking Finns" or attempting to hijack the site in order to advance their Fenno-Ugrian self-esteem.
"McRae distinguishes a gap in Finland between the formal ´linguistic peace´ and the practical ´linguistic instability´ which put the Finland-Swedes in a ´sosiological, psychological and political´ minority position. Consistent with this, Allardt(2000:35) claims that the most serious contemporary problem for the Finland Swedes is the members of the group themselves: their ´submissiviness´and willingness to ´conceal their Finland-Swedishness´ in the face of the majority. Furthermore, the Finland-Swedes relations to Sweden are considered a sensitive isssue in Finland. Höckerstedt (2000:8-9) argues that an emphasis on the ´Swedish´part of the Finland-Swedish identity is ´taboo-laden´ and regarded as unpatriotic".Hedberg, C. 2004.The Finland-Swedissh wheel of migration.Podomi (talk) 20:18, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

problemacy of the straw poll

Problemacy of the poll. The straw is good idea as long as we remember the basic dynamics of the debate. The majority of the Finns (Finnish-speakers) oppose the term Finland-Swedes and are in favour of "Swedish-speaking Finns". The view of Swedish minority which comprises 5% of the Finland´s population is obviously marginalized in the debate. I order to work out this bias I think the the only compromise we can come up with is the "Swedish-speaking minority of Finland". Meanwhile the article title should be retained to the original term "Finland-Swedes", the original name of the article, that is.

As for the unconventional naming of "Swedish-speaking population of Finland", the article would take impartial view of the english terminology. We have to keep in mind the all the Finland-Swedish NGO´s use the Finland-Swedes along with its popularity in the academia. Right now the article has taken strong stance with the title and raised the "Swedish-speaking Finn" above the other alternative.Podomi (talk) 14:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Why do you assume that Finnish speakers want Finland-Swedes to be called "Swedish-speaking Finns", notably, in English? This is not majority vote conducted in Finland (WP:NOTDEMOCRACY). Secondly, this is not about Swedish or Finnish terms, but English terms (finne and Finn not being identical). --Vuo (talk) 15:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
This pattern has been consistent in this page. It´s been accused that the term Finland-Swedes is bad english. However, it might be the only accurate term to describe finlandssvenskhet/finland-Swedishness, and its consistent with the naming of Sweden Finns and Volga-Germans. If this was about only english we´d have Swedish Finns as opposed to Swedish-speaking finns. The aim to deprive Finland-Swedish etnicity and restrict only to language gives very biased picture of Finland-Swedish minority. It´s should be very clear the term "Swedish-speaking finn" is controversial and should not be raised as superior in wikipedia. Are we ok with "Swedish-speaking minority of Finland"? Incase there´s no debate about it I will request for the change.Podomi (talk) 16:00, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
No, we are not OK. Could you please stop acting as a child? This should be discussed before anyone moves anything. There's no need in the world to rush things. Your behavior in this discussion and in wikipedia in general is VERY irritating. 1. We've just had a poll about it, and since none of the solutions you favour has the majority of support, you are in no position to do anything. 2. You can't expect people to be online at wikipedia 24/7, we (clearly not you though) have other things to do than discussing this all day long. 3. Stop playing the "finnish-speakers want this and swedish-speakers want that"-card. There's been many swedish-speaking finns active in this discussion and the majority, as I can see, DO NOT share your view. The opinions of the major organisations representing the swedish-speaking minority have also been presented, and they don't share your view. So this is NOT a finne vs finlandsvensk issue.
You also claim that "all the Finland-Swedish NGO´s use the Finland-Swedes along with its popularity in the academia.". If this is the case, give me some proof. Earlier in the discussion you talked about the think-thank Magma. I'll post my reply to this again since you didn't care to answer it:
"However, i must comment on the Magma Think-thank you mention. I can't find one article or phrase on their website that tell us their opinion on how we should name the swedish-speaking minority, finlandssvenskar, in english. In fact, the only thing I find regarding the issue at all is an article (in swedish) which even criticeses the use of the term finlandssvenskar (!) when talking about the minority. In article the term "svenskspråkiga", "swedish-speaking" is used" --WorldsBestCarlsson (talk) 16:58, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
The name of the organization if Finland-Swedish think thank, not Swedish-speaking Finnish think-thank. the name of Finland-Swedish association if Finland-Swedish association, not Swedish-speaking Finnish association. The recent debate about terminology was started by poster called Östsvensk, overall it seems that finnish-speakers are dominating this debate, a notion given by poster by the name of Fjättrade ankan. As for the term Finland-Swedes in academia, I have posted several citats of Finland-Swedes academics who´ve used the term exclusively. If you would read Magma with more detailed touch you´d have noticed how Finland-Swedish sociolgist and scholar Thomas Rosenberg used bluntly and deliberately the term "svenskar" while addressing finlandssvenskar. As said concluded this debate has its various aspects and thus cannot give a monopoly over certain english translation. Hence I am going to request a change for the article very soon to its original title of Finland-Swedes until the debate is ended, unless ofcourse Swedish-speaking population in Finland receives more immeadiate support.Podomi (talk) 17:09, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
1. No, the name of the think-thank is simply Magma. In the website, it says (in english) that it is "Finland’s Swedish Think Tank", not a "Finland-Swedish think tank". There's a big difference. Again, there's not one article or phrase on their website that tell us their opinion on how we should name the swedish-speaking minority, finlandssvenskar, in english. As I said, there's only 1 article which adress the problem of naming the minority at all and that one is even criticising the use of the term finlandssvensk (!). In the article you mention, which isn't about this issue at all and is written by Thomas Rosenberg, he is using a lot of different terms when he talks about the minority, one of them is "the swedish-speakers" (de svensktalande) along with finlandsvensk and svensk. This brings nothing to our discussion. He also refer to the minority, which he himself belongs to, as a "linguistic community" (språkgrupp). It is quite dishonest of you to imply that he is supporting your view on this matter (naming the minority in english) when the article dont even adress the issue, and most people here probably cant read it because they don't understand swedish.
2. Earlier in the discussion you mentioned other NGOs of the minority, like Svenska Kulturfonden, Svenska folkskolans vänner, Föreningen Konstsamfundet, Stiftelsen Åbo Akademi and Sparbanksstiftelsen i Helsingfors. You also said that they don't use the term "Swedish-speaking finn" when refering to the minority in English. Show me proof, then. Cause when I looked for myself, the only thing I found was this. I quote "The purpose of the Swedish Cultural Foundation in Finland (Svenska kulturfonden) is to support the cultural and educational aspirations of the Swedish-speaking population in Finland as well as a wide range of other activities promoting Swedish as a minority language in Finland.". No Finland-Swedes or Finland-Swedish there. In the site there's also a pdf in which the minority is refered to as "Swedish-speaking finns". --WorldsBestCarlsson (talk) 18:21, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
By the way, are you sure you have considered the implications of your "two people - one country" -ideology thoroughly? Do you wish to see Finnish history rewritten? What will this mean to the "national awakening" and the legacy thereof in terms of "finlandssvenskhet"? Have they no part after all? How about Kalevala? Sauna? Are you robbing the finlandssvenskar of that too? Are you positive that there's a huge conspiracy against the finlandssvenskhet involving the Finnish governmental organisations, Finnish judicial and school systems? Finally, are you sure that you want to reduce the Swedish language from being the official language of the whole of Finland into the domicile language of a minority people in a similar fashion as the three Sami languages? It's ironical since last time I looked, it was the Folktinget that celebrated svenska dagen (Swedish day) in an out dated "Fennoman" (today: "an out dated Finnish") credo "one people - two languages" [3] which didn't take into accaount e.g. the Sami. Clarifer (talk) 17:25, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
World´s best Carlssson, you are becoming a border-troll. The difference of Finland´s Swedes or Finland-Swedes is not big. However, we can change to title to Finland´s Swede if you wish. About the institutions i named, I was merely just illustrating the significance of Magma in the Swedish community. The institutions behind them do not use much of english translations at all. However, interesting that you noticed the Kulturfondens "Swedish-speaking population of Finland" term. After all this is the biggest Finland-Swedish foundation in thecountry and thus there is now even more legitimity for the expression.
Well, now the Magma site don't speak of "Finland's Swedes" or "Finland-Swedes" at all, they just say they're "Finland’s Swedish Think Tank". This tells us NOTHING about which term they prefer to use when naming the minority in english or how they're defining the identity of the minority. As i said, the articles on their website are'nt really supporting your case; one even questioning the term finlandssvenskar (the only article which adress the issue of naming the minority) and a second one, by Thomas Rosenberg, in which he refers to the swedish-speaking finns as a "linguistic community" (språkgrupp). Far away from your "separate people"-theory. When it comes to Svenska Kulturfonden, they obviously has nothing against the term "swedish-speaking finn" since they, on their website, provide us with a pdf which uses that exact term!
You earlier claimed that "not a single finlandssvenska NGO uses the term" and that "all the Finland-Swedish NGO´s use the Finland-Swedes". Apparently, you didn't even check if this was true, cause we now see that it isn't. As for your accusations of "depriving the ethnicity of the minority", it is quite clear that if someone here is doing that, it is the swedish-speakers and the people representing them who are the ones to blaim, since the main organisations representing the swedish-speakers sees no conflict in being part of the linguistic minority (finlandsvenskar), with its own cultural expressions, and being a finn. This is also the most common view represented within the swedish-speakers themselves, according too the polls refered to in all the articles regarding the issue here on wikipedia. --WorldsBestCarlsson (talk) 00:52, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
I´ve given many citats of the term Finland-Swedes, however as said the english translations are diverse, we have Finland-Swedes, "Swedish-speaking Finns" or simply Swedes in Finland. "Swedish-speaking Finn" is mostly used by political organizations and cannot be given monopoly, it´s poor term and deprives the ethnicity of the minority.
Rystad, Göran. 1994. Redefining a Minority Role: The Case of the Swedes in Finland.Podomi (talk) 18:54, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
@Clarifier. The "one people" approach is chauvinistic concept from the 1800´s. It against the natural perception of ordinary Finns and Swedes. I am slightly surprised that Finns cannot see through the Folktingets and SFP´s little gimmics. Think twice what would be behind their reflections of "one people, two languages". Although these organizations have wealth, they are still dependent on finnic politicians in preserving the official status of Swedish language.
"Samhälsklimatet efter krigen inbegriper en fösterländsk idé om ett folk med två språk. Detta folk borde ju då ha ett folklynne. Och om ett folk uppfattas som likamed en nationalitet så borde det finnas bara en `nationalkaraktär´. Detta åter strider mot historien och den tidigare uppfattningen och inte minst folks vardagserfarenheter." Leif Höckerstedt, 2000.
Kalevala & Sisu is not my culture. Kalevala and Sisu are not the culture of Finland-Swedes. This should be as obvious to you as it is to me. Sauna is another story, although I am not sure should we refer it as sauna or by its Russian equivalent, banyana.
Anyway, should also rename Sami´s as Sami speaking Finns, and change the title for Sweden Finns? Podomi (talk) 19:05, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Very well, at least it is becomming increasingly clear that some finlandssvenskar aren't that far from the aims of e.g. Suomalaisuuden Liitto (Finnish Alliance): there seems to be a common goal to marginalise and alienate the Swedish-speaking elements from Finnish main stream culture into a separate and foreign aspect of the society. If this is what is wanted then so be it. After this discussion, I wouldn't be surprised if in two decades Finland had only a single official language and Swedish and Sami as domicile languages. In fact, my surprise is that such a development may be driven by the minority group itself. Who knows, perhaps this represents the national awakening of the Finland-Swedes for better or worse. Clarifer (talk) 15:26, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Interesting thoughts. However, what I´ve self experienced is that Finns generally know very little of history and culture of Finland-Swedish. There seem to be generally some kind of thought among finns that emphasizing the ethnicty and Swedishhness is considered as an anti-finnish, something which is marginal and something which the mainstream Finland-Swedish consider shamefull remnant from the past. I don´t know where this logic originates, most likely from the fact that the Finland-Swedish identity debate in the most mainstream level has been traditionally hijacked by leftist urban elite. I guess that´s they way it is in most of western media´s. We basically have urban leftist Finland-Swedes who tell the finns what they want to hear. Partly this can be understood as sympathy for the unpriviledged majority, however the way I see it, it has been gone too far. The Helsingfors dominated debate is very alien to majority of Finland Swedes who still perceive Sweden as their ethnic homeland. These live in Osterbotten, Åbolands archipelago and western, rural Nyland. These folk comprise the majority of Finland-Swedes, nevertheless their voice is rarely hear. This is not anti-finniscism, although I don´t deny its existance among some Finland-Swedish circuits, however this is mostly about Swedish culture of the Baltic sea, culture sphere that has never been divided by artifical state-borders, culture that characterized by sea and Swedishness.For these people, the majority of Finland-Swedes, finnish-speaking inland Finland is simply an alien culture. Sometimes I really wonder how effectively the Folktinget and SFP are able to smoke finns from the waist down. These organizations are extremely good in getting their will, and don´t mind coming up whatever crazy ideas their pr-people invent. For the sake and future of Swedishness in Finland and the official status of Swedish in Finland it´s probably better to tell Finns what they want to hear, but the problem arises when we are trying to give neutral view of Finland-Swedes for international audience, in the form of wikipedia article for example. It´s then we should be able to see the forest from the trees. For those interested in Finland-Swedes I warmly welcome to read Håkan Eklunds brilliant article "På tal om den finlandssvenska identitetsdebatten".
http://web.abo.fi/meddelanden/veckans_skribent/2005_04_eklund.shtPodomi (talk) 16:01, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
"Men notera: det är varken ofosterländskt eller antifinskt, varken mot språket eller mot den finska kulturen att försvara och värna om en gammal gränsöverskridande kustsvensk kultur som via havet förenat våra svenska kust- och skärgårdsbygder med hela den svenska östkusten från Kvarken till Roslagen!"
FÖR ÅBOLÄNNINGAR, österbottningar och ålänningar är det fortfarande en del av vardagen att leva som ett gränsfolk med starka band till kusten och kulturen i Sverige, och många känner sig mera hemma i Umeå och Stockholm än i Helsingfors.
Dear Podomi, are you actually serious? If you were an agent provocateur of the Suomalaisuuden liitto or Suomen sisu, you could not write a text which would be more disparaguing of the Swedish-speaking minority. They often try to point out that such conspiracy of Swedish-speaking double-think exists, but that is considered a lunatic fringe opinion by the mainstream Finnish-speaking community. Now you are claiming the existence of such double-talk in order to have an English-speaking Wikipedia article turned into supporting your POV. I really start to wonder what you are aiming at. --MPorciusCato (talk) 16:34, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
First of all, I am not comfortable that my Swedish ethnicity is restricted to language. Did you actually read anything I wrote above? Finland-Swedish scholar Leif Höckerstedt raised a critisism for the Swedish political organizations which nevertheless still refers to their organizations as Swedish People´s party or Swedish assembly.
"Diskussionen tycks gå ut på att se oss genom finska ögon och få oss att agera så att majoriteten blir nöjd. Från början var det självklart att man kunde vara svensk i Finland. Då Finland blev självständigt var det politiskt befogat att använda finlandssvensk för att markera statstillhörigheten. Begreppet riksvensk användes för att hänvisa till svenskar i Sverige. Nu har det blivit opportunt att använda svensktalande eller svenskspråkig finländare eller finne (på engelska swedish-speaking finns, ej Finland-Swedes) och samtidigt antyda att det bara är frågan om språk, ett kommunikationmedel, som skiljer svensk och finne i Finland".Höckerstedt, 2009
Like I said I cannot but wonder how good well SFP and Folktinget has got their message through the majority. Anyway, for those who don´t support the tvångsvenskan nor the official status of Swedish language in Finland, which has never worked in practise, there´s no need to to tell what finns want to hear. And all I can tell that the Swedish People party and Folktinget have done a tremendeously good job for advancing their cause for finns. Ouh, and this debate has no relevance to my naming proposal, this is private discourse. I hope people can seperate substance from emotions. Anyway, between me and you, what comes to double-thinking, I´ve never had that, It´s been clear to since the day I was born, which country is my ethnic homeland, and in which country my family has been visitors, Finland that is. However, even I take a piss every once in a while when a Finn tells to go back to Sweden, after all, finns have never had any monopoly over Finland and fairly little to say where Swedes should go from Svenskfinland. Although the direction seem to increasingly back to motherland:
"It is concluded that Finland-Swedes are over-represented in the total migrationprocess from Finland to Sweden. As such, the process is culturally embedded in the group´s ethnic identity, which causes migration both through the pratical minority situation in Finland and through ethnic affinity with Sweden".Hedberg, C. 2004.The Finland-Swedish wheel of migration. Podomi (talk) 17:27, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
I found an additional citat from Finland-Swedish sociologist Thomas Rosenberg
"Det här gäller såväl österbottningar (för att inte tala om ålänningar) som helt tvåspråkiga finlandssvenskar. De förra upplever sig ofta vara svenskar som råkar bo i Finland medan de senare upplever sig vara finnar som råkar tala svenska".
The title of article must also reflect this issue. It´s intellectually dishonoust to have have bluntly the name "Swedish-speaking Finns" when we have group of Finland-Swedes, Ostrobotnians make over 50% of Finland-Swedes) who do not consider themselves as Finnish.Podomi (talk) 21:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Podomi´s compromise

Is there possibility to rename the article as "Swedish-speaking finns/Finland-Swedes" or the other way around? This would also pay tribute to the original title of the article, Finland-Swedes and to the current version. The double naming could be explained in the article under a seperate sub-chapter.Podomi (talk) 00:57, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I found an interesting article of Finland-Swedish by native english-speaker, Phd. Edward Dutton, in his scholarly aticle he uses exclusively expression Finland-Swede,
http://www.antrocom.net/upload/sub/antrocom/040208/14-Antrocom.pdf
While in magazine article he uses both term, http://www.ovimagazine.com/art/948. Pay attention!
"Miss Asplund is a Finland-Swede and a student at Umeå University in Sweden. The Finnish culture minister (himself a Swedish-speaker) called her the worst 'enemy' of Swedish-speaking Finns because she sees them as a race rather than a language group and thinks that Finland-Swedishness is a matter of genetics.
Miss Asplund has been accused of racism for her view that Finland-Swedes are more cultured than Finnish-speaking Finns. However, she thinks that Finland-Swedes are discriminated against and prejudged because of their ethnicity. She thinks their rights are trampled on, if they speak out they'll be threatened and that immigrants to Finland that chose to learn Swedish will be doubly discriminated against. Miss Asplund's group is determined, as they see it, to fight back".
So basically native english speakers feel expression "swedish-speaking Finnishness" unusefull, and hence it has been replaced by Finland-Swedishness (finlandssvenskhet). So, how about if we move the title as "Swedish-speaking finns/Finland-Swedes"? Podomi (talk) 16:14, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
There's no any other Wikipedia articles with "/" in the title. It might be against guidelines.--130.234.5.138 (talk) 17:39, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
We´ll then we must make the first one. Is there articles with "-" We could have "Swedish-speaking Finns - Finland-Swedes. This would be neutral and would show that wikipedia do not take part in the terminology issue which has not been fully settled.Podomi (talk) 18:44, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


I´ve found this following citat from the page.
"the Finnish Government Research Institute for the Languages of Finland, which has consulted other English experts, recommends ([7]), the following use: "Finland Swede should be used about persons, Finland-Swedish as the adjective, and Finland Swedish for the version of Swedish that is spoken in Finland"." I am going to make a telephone call to the organization on monday to ask their view, as I´ve saw that they use "Swedish-speaking finn" as well.
A Citat from now defunct article from the Finnish research center for the languages
"Laurén använder i sin artikel Finland Swede om person, Finland-Swedish som adjektiv och Finland Swedish om språkvarianten. Efter att för säkerhets skull ha konsulterat engelsk expertis kan jag rekommendera de termerna för allmänt bruk i texter på engelska om finlandssvenska förhållanden."land Swede should be used about persons, Finland-Swedish as the adjective, and Finland Swedish for the version of Swedish that is spoken in Finland".
I let you guys debate about this for couple days, anyway, it should be clear by now to everyone that we won´t the article title at this form very long.
One compromise is that we use bluntly "Finlandssvenskar" and explain the different english-speaking versions in neutral manner without giving any version a monopololy.Podomi (talk) 11:55, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Is "citat" really English or another Podomi's sweticicism? I think its "quote".--212.146.44.208 (talk) 15:24, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
I am going gather here material which will be eventually presented to Wiki administrators when this page is renamed. MPontios has expressed his concern over unconventional naming customs. We have articles of Estonian Swedes, Netherland Swedes...etc We don´t have an article of Finland Swedes in wikipedia? Isn´t that little unconventional given the large Swedish minority in the country? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Podomi (talk • contribs) 15:28, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Podomi, the correct way to move pages is to make a request for move. If you wish to do so, go ahead. I doubt you'll get a consensus for a move. --MPorciusCato (talk) 15:55, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Why wouldn´t I receive consensus for a move, given that I presented adequote material in favour of more neutral expression? Why would a consensus oppose Wikipedia´s quest for neutrality. The thing is that the Swedish form "finlandssvensk" has an ethnic connotation, it is not just entirely language based. The term "Swedish-speaking Finn" is fully language based, without an ethnic connotation, hence it cannot be perceived as neutral expression of Finland-Swedishness or "Swedish-speaking Finnishness". Do you have some suggestion how we correct this bias in the title of the article?Podomi (talk) 19:26, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


Hey, I just consulted the bureau of Finnish languages and research, where I was informed from the Swedish-speaking sector that they will not take stance on the debated issue and adviced me to use either Swedish Finns, Swedish-speaking Finns or Finland-Swedes.
Here´s what Dr.Tore Moden, an specialist in international law and minority issues, has to say about the Swedish nationality in Finland
"In Finland this question has been subjected to much discussion. The Finnish majority tries to deny the existence of a Swedish nationality. An example of this is the fact that the statutes always use the concept "Swedish-speaking" instead of Swedish".
"The concept of nation has a different significance as meaning of a population group or an ethnic community, irrespectively of its organization. ( I prefer to use the concept of nationality in this connection). For instance, the Swedes of Finland, with their distinctive lnaguage and culture form a nationality which under the Finnish constitution shall enjoy equal rights with the Finnish nationality".
"It is not correct to call a nationality a linguistic group or minority, if it has developed culture of its own. If there is not only a community of language, but also of other characteristics such as folklore, poetry and literature, folk music, theater, behavior.etc".
"An ethnic group with "a mother country" can certainly profit from the linguistic and technical development there. Without Sweden, the Swedes of Finland would have small chances to survive. Not because Sweden actually helps the Swedes of Finlan; there are no subsidiaries of any importance. But the very existance of flourishing Swedish culture and economy keeps the spirit of Finnish Swedes alive".
The cultural rights of the Swedish ethnic group in Finland(Europa Ethnica, 3-4 1999 (jg.56)
By naming the article as "Swedish-speaking Finns" wikipedia has not only taken strong stance on the debate of Swedish identity in Finland, but also taken a partial view on the whole existance of the Finland-Swedish ethnicity. (which is now restricted only as linguistic phenomenon, this may be an violation against existential right to exist. I have a moral responsibility to preserve the neutrality of wikipedia, thus by an unilateral act I will change the article as Swedish-speaking population in Finland, before we have reach a new verdict of the title.
Best regards, Podomi.Podomi (talk) 14:12, 2 February 2009 (UTC)


What is it that you're trying to do? Find a couple of studies where the author has used the term Finland-Swede and then post it here as "proof"? If that is the case, I could bombard you with references to academic liturature where the term "Swedish-Speaking finn" is used. This is because most english-language liturature on the subject use that term. I'm also questioning the sources of some of the information you've put in article or posted here. What, exactly, has the opinions of 1 person, for example Carl O. Nordling, to do with anything? He's not a authority on the subject, he's an architect, he just expresses his own opinion as you and me. And for the record, he's also a Holocaust-denier which has published himself in antisemitic papers. One other thing is when you repeatingly is quoting Höckerstedt and his book "Fuskfinnar eller östsvenskar?". This book is not a academic work, it is his own views in the debate and his own views only, and if refered to that should be made clear. I also think you should take a look at this:
"Swedish-Speaking Finns as a Minority: Sociological Perspectives
Swedish-Speaking Finns as a Minority: Sociological Perspectives, Autumn 2008
Place: Department of Sociology, Gezeliusgatan 2 (Åhuset), large seminar room Credits: 5 ECTS, Form of assessment: written exam'"
This is a course taught in english for exchange students at Åbo Akademi. The only course which is targeting the subject. And which term do they use? Swedish-speaking finns, which they describe as a linguistic/cultural minority, not a ethnic one. And this from the University which describes itself as "Finland's Swedish University" (it's a swedish-language-university) --WorldsBestCarlsson (talk) 17:22, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes, all terms, Swedish-Finns, Swedes in Finland, Finland-Swedes, Swedish-speaking Finns are used in the academia. That´s why cannot give any term a monopoly. This was also addressed by the Research institute for national languages in Finland, to which I made a phone call today. Carl Nordling is a member of Finland-Swedish minority and has even wikipedia article denoted for him. He has been publishing in several peer-reviewed academic journals such as Linguistica Uralica. The fact that he, among many others, raises concern for the "Swedish-speaking Finn" just implies that there members of the minority who are not comfortable with the term. A Voice of a common man and academic simultaneously. Your assesment of him being holocaust denier is ad hominem, something which hasn´t nothing to do with the issue. It just show how biased your Fenno-Chauvinistic views are. You are willing to do anything to illegitimate valid sources.
From wikipedia, "His statistical analysis on the Holocaust, How Many Jews Died in the German Concentration Camps?, has been used by historical revisionists and Holocaust deniers".
Leif Höckerstedt´s book is being used as the coursebook in the fundamental course of Finland-Swedishness in the university of Helsingfors, https://oodi-www.it.helsinki.fi/hy/opintjakstied.jsp?MD5avain=&Kieli=1&OpinKohd=52742430&OnkoIlmKelp=0&ooo_SortJarj=2&vl_tila=4&takaisin=vl_kehys.jsp&Opas=797&Org=30545178&haettuOpas=797&haeOpintJaks=haeopintojaksotPodomi (talk) 17:40, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
World´s best carlsson. The NGO´s Finland-Swedish association is Finland-Swedish association, not Swedish-speaking Finnish association. The Finland-Swedish Think Thank Magma, is Finland-Swedish Think Thank Magma, not Swedish-speaking Finnish think thank Magma. These are the only Swedish-pseaking Finnish NGO´s which have their named translated in English as well.Podomi (talk) 18:31, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Carlsson has added an article by Donner. If we go by individual manifestations we could introduce citats from every single Swedish-speaking author, Gösta Åhgren, Ida Asplund, Thomas Rosenberg. No offense to Donner, but when the text is referring to academic debate from branch of internation minority law, it would look rather naive to have Donner´s citats as well. Donner´s idea´s can be introduced in the "identity of Swedish-speaking finns" section if one feels that they are adequately covered already in the text. In the sub-section there´s unreferenced wording "However, not all Swedish-speaking Finns are willing to self-identify as representatives of a distinct ethnicity". Carlsson could introduce a reference with his Donner article. Given that Swedish citats are allowed. Donner has resigned from the finlandssvensk community, and does not identify as such(finlandssvensk), thus the internatiol minority law interpreation does not cover him, given that self-identification of ethnicity is the primary form of ethnicity. But Carlsson make sure you go and add to the "Finns"-article that not all Finns want to be identified as "Finns". Some of them prefer ethnic identities such as "European" or "cosmopolitan" for example.
In this article we must be careful that we don´t mix those who speak Swedish but not identify themselves as finlandssvensk, such as Donner, those Finns are Swedish language instructors in high-schools, or second generation Finn who reside in Sweden and identify themselves as Finn who speak Swedish. And I would also point that by going Worlds best Carlsson ad hominem standards, we could point out how Donners has been performing adult entertainment with under-aged girls. That kind of a respected movie director and culture person we havePodomi (talk) 19:17, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
I didn't add the Donner quote. MPorciusCato did... --WorldsBestCarlsson (talk) 11:12, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Podomi, if someone does not think that finlandssvenskhet is exactly what you think it to be, it does not mean they don't identify as finlandssvenskar. Jörn Donner is widely considered to be one of the most important living finlandssvensk intellectuals and he is widely more notable than Ida Asplund, Höckerstedt and Rosenberg taken together. In Wikipedia, all POVs must be represented, not just yours. --MPorciusCato (talk) 16:34, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Donner does not identify as a finlandssvensk, he has addressed this already in the 70´s. He emphasizes his German roots and brings on the table in about every identity discussion he has been participating. We probably have Swedes in Sweden who perceives them as "Walloons" as well. Do you have a source would legitimize his status as important intellectual? As far as I am aware he hasn´t contributed to academic journals nor participated or international minority rights movement such as Asplund, Höckerstedt and Rosenberg. In Finland-Swedish community Donner regarded as a hooligan, gifted writer yes, but a hooligan, he does not even have the authority of an academian. He has tried to illegitimize the term Finland-Swedish for the fact that according to him Finland-Swedes do not originate from Sweden. This is complete piece of bullshit. In his writing every 22 post were against him and some accused him violation basic existential human rights, to have the right to exist in the identified ethnicity. Now, you want to raise him as some sort serious authority. This is not proper behavior. I would understand if you citats from authors such as Bo Carpeland, Merete Mazzarella, Claes Andersson, Tove Jahnsson. These are respected in Finland-Swedish community. Besides you forgot to add "Porn star" in his list of merits. Why? He is also respected pornographic actor notorious for having been performing uninhibitet intercourse with under-aged girls. Please, cover Donner in the identity section, he really does not have an authority to define Finland-Swedes under the chapter "definition problem".128.214.30.23 (talk) 17:14, 3 February 2009 (UTC)


Donner is widely identified as finlandssvensk and is considered widely to be one of the leading Finnish intellectual personalities ([4][5][6]). You are correct, he has also starred in a porn movie during the 1960s. However, that is not his main contribution to the film. In total, he has directed over 20 movies, and he was one of the most important producers of Ingmar Bergman. In the literary field, he is at par with Bo Carpelan or Claes Andersson. I have not seen him denounce his finlandssvenskhet. On the contrary, he has been a member of parliament for the SFP. However, he has denounced the importance of the concept of finlandssvenskhet, as referenced in the "definition problem". --MPorciusCato (talk) 17:45, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
I don´t deny Donners merits. However, this article is about finlandssvenskar, or is this about finns who speak Swedish, like the finnish immigrants or Swedish high-school teachers? Donner is not an authority to have anything the definition of finlandssvenskhet. He is not a finlandssvensk as he has himself addressed. We are discusion the various definition problem related to english translation of the term finlandssvensk/ar, we are not discussion whether the term finlandssvenskhet is legitimate or not, it´s valid term since we have minority in Finland who identifies with such a term. Donner is not one of those. There would not a single academic who would recite him. His arguments are a joke, the only thing he did was caused anger among those who identifies as finlandssvenskar, and this is what the article is about. Donner was accused for insult against against finlandssvenskar and violation of existential human right to exist. His article resulted in several angry writing in HBL. This article has a chapter "identity of Swedish-speaking finns", with following unreferenced sentence "However, not all Swedish-speaking Finns are willing to self-identify as representatives of a distinct ethnicity". Go ahead and add a source for that.
Anyway, you´ve just proved our english title "Swedish-speaking Finn" is not neutral, even you are not sure whether it is about people who defines them as a finlandssvensk or something else. Keep in mind that the chapter says "The Swedish term finlandssvensk, which is used by the group itself" keep in mind as well that we looking an english translation for a "finlandssvensk", not for Donner.....Podomi (talk) 18:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Move process

Podomi, once again, tried to move this page without any kind of consensus, in a blatant violation of WP:MOVE. I undid the move. I'd like to ask administrators to step in and apply appropriate measures. --MPorciusCato (talk) 15:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Tears....What´s the matter? Should we comptemplate which is a more "blatant violation", unilateral page move or a page title which is non-neutral to say the least. In fact our current term may just be an blatant violation against the existantial righ for Finland-Swedes to exist as a nationality and ethnicity.
"In Finland this question (Swedish nationality) has been subjected to much discussion. The Finnish majority tries to deny the existence of a Swedish nationality. An example of this is the fact that the statutes always use the concept "Swedish-speaking" instead of Swedish". Tore Moden (Europa Ethnica, 1999 vol.3-4).
Shouldn´t wikipedia´s neutrality be among your top priorities MPontiusCato? The Finnish bureau of national languages did not want to take a stance for the terminology of Swedish speakers in Finland. Why would wikipedia like to, or rather why the representants of the Finnish nationality want to? MCPorciusCato, you got a help from your little fenno moderator this time, next time may be differentPodomi (talk) 17:20, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Podomi, has it occured to you that you might not be right? In Wikipedia, we do not decide things by sprouting large amounts of text again and again. Instead, we discuss using rational arguments. If you can get a consensus for a move, I'm fine with it. However, you cannot decide such things alone. --MPorciusCato (talk) 17:00, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
You words could be taken with respect, if you would show some character in your behavior. Adding citats from adult-film stars performers, and leftist radicals, as an respected source and authority under the chapter "definition problem" is a grose example of your mission. You are getting beyond desperous. A complete lack of respect for national minority. Donner can be what he wants, however he publicly expressed that he is not a finlandssvensk already in the 70´s. How would feel if someone would add the comments of ex-porn actor, who had assessed that Finns are not Finns but Uralics, since Finns originate from proto-Uralic homeland and not Finland? That would be insulting.Podomi (talk) 17:26, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Donner is Donner, but you can't just claim his view doesn't exist, especially if it is the official policy of the state of Finland. It may not be scientifically correct but it is official, unfortunately. --Vuo (talk) 18:36, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Finnish state policy

Quoting:

Ideas that the Finnish-speaking majority is unwilling to accept separate Swedish nationality in Finland has been presented. (ref) "In Finland this question (Swedish nationality) has been subjected to much discussion. The Finnish majority tries to deny the existence of a Swedish nationality. An example of this is the fact that the statutes always use the concept "Swedish-speaking" instead of Swedish", "The wording of the Finnish Constitution (Art. 14.1): "Finnish and Swedish shall be the national languages of the republic" has been interpreted by linguist and constitution-writing politician E.N. Setälä and others as meaning that these languages are the State languages of Finland in stead of the languages of the both nationalities of Finland","It is not correct to call a nationality a linguistic group or minority, if it has developed culture of its own. If there is not only a community of language, but also of other characteristics such as folklore, poetry and literature, folk music, theater, behavior.etc". Tore Modeen,The cultural rights of the Swedish ethnic group in Finland(Europa Ethnica, 3-4 1999,jg.56) (/ref)

I find this overtly polemic and additionally it may be a fringe theory (I have no expertise to judge whether it is). As I understand it, the policy of the state of Finland is not necessarily how Finnish people ("Finnish-speaking" in nationalist terms) see this. It was a compromise to define in the constitution that the law will not take a stand in the issue itself. Instead, it will only address the actual decisions that have to be taken with regard to languages of the public services, etc. It clearly does not dictate what Finnish people actually think. --Vuo (talk) 18:55, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Podomi´s apology

I apologize for the remarks and clear ad hominens I made against Donner. This was clearly wrong. However, I think adding his citats under the "definition problem"-heading was very naive. It actually work only againt MPorciusCato´s own perception. He is probably young and do not really understand where is aiming at. The reason Donner wanted to resign from the term finlandssvensk is for the very fact that the term finlandssvensk has such a deep ethno-cultural meaning. For Donner the term finlandssvensk means "Swedish in Finland". Our article is about finlandssvenskar but we refer them as "Swedish-speaking Finn" a term which no ethnic connotation.

"Självfallet kan man diskutera vad som ingår i denna gruppidentifikation (finlandssvensk) förutom svenska språket och vissa historiska händelser: samhörighet med Sverige, kräftätning, snapvisesjungande,Luciatraditionen, skärgårdsliv, ankdammen, upplevelser i språkstrid, fonderna, SFP osv. I varje fall är det klart att den mera omfattande betydelsen fortfarande lever och att många inte upplever den som relevant eller accetabelt och därför undvikar hela ordet, t.e Jörn Donner, som i bok från 1980 meddelar sig "att vara finne som talar svenska" http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/~fkarlsso/edelfelt.pdf

1)My question is whether this article is about finlandssvenskar? The definition subject refers to problematic english translation of finlandssvenskar, not whether the term finlandssvenskar is accurate term, as Donner proposes in his article.

2) My second question is whether the term "Swedish-speaking Finn" is neutral expression of the term finlandssvensk, which after all has a deep ethno-cultural meaning, so deep that we even have swedish-speaking celebreties who want to resign themselves from the term.

I aknowledge the ethno-linguistic relationship are fucked up. The fact that Swedish has been the language of the upper class has poisoned the relationship of Finland-Swedes and Finns for good. However, I would like to point out that only few of Finland-Swedes were members of upper-class, although, the upper-class was Swedish. Swedish language in Finland continues to have higher prestige and that´s why we wittness the phenomenon that the Swedish aspect of Finland-Swedes is aimed to illegitimize by behalf of Finnish posters. That´s why we have Finnish posters who come and add "dubious speculation" tags under the text by Dr in international minority rights in academic, European journal of international law and ethnicity. Every emphasis on the ethnic Swedish part of Finland-Swedes is denoted as "racist and radical" from the behalf of Finnish posters. I understand this, but the majority of Finland-Swedes who have never done anything wrong against Finns have a right for an ethnic Finland-Swedish identity. And even the right be called a nationality. This existential right and it cannot be taken away from Finland-Swedes eventhough there´s has been members of the minority who have fucked up in the past. I will remove the speculation part which does not have rational reason to be there. What comes to Donner I suggest it will be discussed in the "identity of Swedish-speaking finns"-section. The definition problem refers to english definition of the term finlandssvensk, not whether a finlandssvensk is a correct term or not. Besides Donner says very little to internation audience who cannot access to his academic publications and further analyze his wordingsPodomi (talk) 19:34, 3 February 2009 (UTC)


I would like to point to MporciusCato that you´ve missed something from Donnner´s writing, probably because Swedish is not your first language. Donner does not argue that finlandssvenskhet is a linguistic phenomenon, he argues that not good expression because according to him finladssvenskar do not originate from Sweden, "but from other countries and from finns". The whole reason for him resigning from the term finlandssvensk is because it has so much bigger meaning than just linguistical. You misinterpreted his wordings. That together with the fact the "definition problem" refers to english definition of finlandssvensk. Not whether finlandssvenskhet is appropriate term. We don´t have definition problem on the term finlandssvensk. Could you move your citat to identity part and correct your phrasing.Podomi (talk) 19:50, 3 February 2009 (UTC)


Okay, I removed Mporcius Catos wrong interpretations from Donner article. Plus it wasn´t translated. However, I came to conclusion. I will remove this
"The strong will to address the Swedish-speaking de facto minority entirely from linguistic perspective has been noted in the academic debate in regards to internatinal law and minority rights. Ideas that the Finnish-speaking majority is unwilling to accept separate Swedish nationality in Finland has been presented."
I will transfer it to "identity section" and change the wording. We can just write that there´s been ideas that Finland-Swedes are also nationality. However, i don´t remove the source wording, but I believe we should portray Finland-Swedes in positive light, not in way which is harmful against finns. And, I will leave the citats which address the concern that some Finland-Swedes have expressed about the "Swedish-speaking" expression. This is not a crime against Finns. An ethnic group has the right be ethnic group despite they´ve also constituted the upper class and bears historical guilt.
You guys are lucky that I willing compromise. I got pissed from the naming-discussion. You should have also known that you cannot fuck with Podomi, I always get what I want, thus I propose a bettter attitude from the MPorcius and the rest.Podomi (talk) 20:44, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Anyway, I leave you guys think about the current title. What´s the wikipedia´s policy on this. "The Swedish-speaking finn" certainly has biggest exposure, not significantly but still the biggest. However, as shown this is not entirely a neutral term and is now raised on pedestal above all the others. Is this ok? Podomi (talk) 21:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Dear Podomi, your actions grant You some goodwill. However, I cannot refrain myself from commenting some of your (personal) interpretations of the whole debate concerning minority issues and Finland.
1. You seem to think that You possess the special capability of objectively defining an ethnic group, in particular, the ethnic group You address as 'finlandssvenskar'. It seems that other editors participating in this conversation do not think that they are capable of such a thing with regard to any ethnic group. This discrepancy seems to be a major source of misconception.
2. That the language of Finnish upper class used to be Swedish has not poisoned anything for good. The mere thought of something like that appears to be an example of a rigid, old-fashioned and hostile way of thinking that somehow seems plagued with psychological projection.
3. In Finland, the Swedish language has not enjoyed "a higher prestige" for a century now as Finnish law lifted the status of Finnish to correspond that of Swedish in the early 20th century. I probably need not remind You, that in the 19th century it was the ideal and cause of many of the members of the "Swedish-speaking upper class" to grant the next generation - and their own children - the right for the Finnish mother tongue they themselves lacked! Have you heard of a Finnish citizen who had his/her surname changed into a Swedish one? The opposite is true: thousands and thousands of Finnish people with a Swedish surname changed them into Finnish ones during the early 20th century. And today, the Finland Swedish language absorbs Fennicisms from the surrounding language more and more while Finnish has already for long replaced earlier Swedicisms with Anglicisms.
4. It is clear that an ethnic group has the right to that identity. However, and this indeed is the debate, Your definition (that finlandssvenskar represent an ethnically Swedish population) does not seem to be universally accepted by those, who You define as members of this group NOR does it seem to be universally accepted by the "parental" population you propose, namely the Swedes. It is understandable that You are alarmed by e.g. the Donner case as it is another clear example of the concept of self-identifying: While some of the people designating themselves 'finlandssvenskar' seem to want to see themselves being members of the ethnic group 'Swedes' others reject the concept of 'finlandssveskar' as being anything separate from 'Finns', many probably place themselves somewhere in between. You contradict Yourself in multiple ways by placing Donner outside of finlandssvenskar because of his self-definition.
Best regards, Clarifer (talk) 17:25, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the goodwill.
1) What I meant Swedish having higher prestige in Finland is that it has higher social prestige. Do not pretend otherwise. I even have an academic study about the way finnish-speakers perceives Swedish and finlandssvenskar in Finland. Swedish has a higher social prestige since Finns collectively perceives it that way. Due to this higher prestige we have Finnish posters coming to page related to Finland-Swedes in attempt to illegitize their Swedishness. Due to this prestige Finns get mad when Finland-Swedish want to emphasize their Swedishness, they rarely get mad if Sami express their Saminess. We Finland-Swedes do not go to Finn-pages and try to depict how close you are to us, or do we? This is rather one-sided phenomenon.
2) You´ve understood Donner completely wrong. Probably because you don´t know the details nor cannot read Swedish. Donner is against the particular term "finlandssvensk" because he thinks its a colonial relic and misinforming. The word finlandssvensk is so loaded with ethno-cultural connotation and the Donner feels repulsive about it. He is a rebel. However, in this page we do not discuss whether the term finlandssvensk is appropriate or not, we discuss about a group who perceives themselves as finlandssvenskar. Donner has resigned from this group and do not want referred with this name. He does not see finlandssvenskar as entirely linguistic phenomenon, however we wants to get rid of the whole term "finlandssvensk".
3) What comes to Finland-Swedishness, ofcourse Finland-Swedish are ethnic Swedes. The populations of Ålanders and Swedes in Finland are part of the Swedish culture and products of Swedish civilization. Tore Modeen defines that "Swedish ethnic group" is comprised of Mainland Swedes, Ålanders and Swedes in Finland.
"They (Åland islanders) belong to the Swedish ethnic community, together with the Swedes of Sweden, and the Swedes of Finland of which Åland islanders are a part". (Europa Ethnica, 1999,3-4)
Finland-Swedes make-up their own distinct nationality but they are still part of the broader Swedish ethnic group.
Finland-Swedes could never be cannot be observed outside of Sweden, not even in the modern times (Kari Tarkiainen, "Sveriges Österland" 2008). Every population, nationality has its rebels, today, thanks to bi-ethnic intermarriages many Finnish citizens are developing dual identities, or usually in many cases plain Finnish identities. Due to these intermarriages the whole Finland-Swedish community is being crippled and ultimately vanished away. Then you guys can lift your toests. However, we are not fully there yet.
Thomas Rosenberg: "Det här gäller såväl österbottningar (för att inte tala om ålänningar) som helt tvåspråkiga finlandssvenskar. De förra upplever sig ofta vara svenskar som råkar bo i Finland medan de senare upplever sig vara finnar som råkar tala svenska".Podomi (talk) 18:41, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I think we can all agree that a Swedish-speaking Finn who consider her/himself as an ethnic Swede is an ethnic Swede (most proper Swedes would presumably agree). None of my Swedish-speaking friends in Helsinki is doing so, but apparently some individuals do. Unfortunately, no one has presented any sources regarding the statistics of self-identification among the Swedish-speakers. As many Swedish-speaking Finns do not consider themselves as ethnic Swedes, any sweeping claim of the ethnicity of the Swedish-speaking group is an intolerable and insensitive generalisation.--91.153.159.82 (talk) 19:20, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
It seems that the finnish-speakers contacts to Finland-Swedes are restricted to members from Helsinki. I have given many sources which indicates that Finland-Swedes feel that their ethnic homeland is Sweden. The fact Ostrobotnians and Åbo Skärgård, not to even mention Åland-islanders, -dwellers refers themselves as "Swedes" should already tell you something, these two folk make already about 65% of Finland-Swedes. Out from the Western Nylanders have traditionally held the idea that Swedes are not divided ny state borders. You can think whatever you wish. The language shift among Finland-Swedes, from Swedish to Finnish is very obvious in Helsinki, and ofcourse it the language which also shifts but the ethnic identity as well. Swedes in Sweden do not have any monopoly for Swedishness but why would they not perceive Finland-Swedes as what they are?
"Svenskarna på andra sidan Bottenhavet", http://www.svd.se/kulturnoje/understrecket/artikel_1892511.svd
What are the Finland-Swedes if not ethnic Swedes? Finland-Swedish are Germanics of Scandinavian/European civilization, how someone could confuse them with Northern Asiatic Uralic folk, such as Finns? It does not make sense to me, these two folk heir from completely different cultural (and racial?) origins.87.95.10.5 (talk) 21:32, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
"What are the Finland-Swedes if not ethnic Swedes?" I find the whole the question rather unimportant. I do not care much about ethnicity, I do not respect people who are fanatical because of it, and I do not think that the Swedish-speakers in Finland need to be ethnic anything. Why should all people have clear and definite ethnicity? Or perhaps some of the Swedish-speakers are an ethnic group by themselves, distinct to both Swedes and Finns. On the other hand, they are absolutely free to identify themselves as Swedes if they wish. No one can deny that.
Regarding the rest of your comment: Please, stop mouthing all that ridiculously stupid nonsense. It makes you look like a village idiot. Your opinions get a loony aura. Whatever the ancient "racial" origins of Uralic languages are (not all researchers locate them in North Asia), there's not much discernable "racial" difference between the Finnish-speakers and Swedish-speakers in current Finland. DNA tests may suggest partly different biological origins of the two linguistic groups, but there is no much sense to discuss this as a "racial difference". "Race" is an old-fashioned and offensive term. Labelling Finns as a North Asian people is nothing but a petty racist fantasy, a desperate (and somewhat sick) attempt to create an impression of a huge gulf between the two linguistic groups in Finland to get support for an extremist view-point. Of course, there is nothing wrong with North Asian origins, but in this case the suggestion is completely absurd and politically motivated.
The cultural origins of Finnish-speakers are mostly the same as the ones of Swedes: Kingdom of Sweden, Lutheran faith, North European culture, Swedish education etc. Even Kalevala has much similarities with Old Norse epic poetry. In other words: am I actually a Finnish-speaking Swede? Well, no, because I do not consider myself so; but my cultural origins lie largely in Sweden and absolutely not in North Asia. We must go to the Neolithic Stone Age to find Finland with predominantly eastern cultural orientation...
But in any case, Podomi's bizarre suggestion of completely different cultural origins has absolutely no basis. Please, read some basics of history.

--128.214.17.121 (talk) 10:14, 5 February 2009 (UTC) (Edited own message)

Chill down, as you said there´s nothing wrong with being North-Asian. However, I must say I disagree with you. I think that Finns cannot be perceived outside of Northern Asian culture. After all linguistics are foundation for the whole culture. Even for a plain eye one recognized lot of similarities between Finns and Siberians, the solemness, shyness and, sorry if this is offensive, the shame-based culture of finns. Some may perceive them as a grose stereotyping, but let say that these characteristics are more typical to Finns than for Scandinavians f.e. Ofcourse Finns have been integrated to the Scandinavian civilization, but the origins of the culture are not from there and this is stil very evident by simple just observing finns. I think even Topelius characterized the character and culture of Finland-Swedes as being very different to those of Finns, eventhough he saw them as part of the same "folk".Podomi (talk) 13:59, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Well, there's nothing wrong being from South-Asia either as, in analogy, Swedes represent an Indic population currently residing in northern Europe.... But we all know that there's nothing wrong in having an Indo-European language as a mother tongue, its spread is just an unfortunate event for the western Fennoscandians. These northern Indians, as we all know, are notorious for their burlesque nature as well as superficiality and a pseudo-social character. Some may perceive this as a gross stereotyping but let's say these characteristics are more typical to Scandinavians than to Finns. Of course Swedes have been integrated into the Fennoscandian civilization, but the origins of the culture are not from there and this is still very evident by simple observation of the Swedes.
This is how much your comment above makes sense. Clarifer (talk) 15:24, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Hey, Finnish (speaking), sociologist, a legendaric JP Roos has replied to Donner

http://www.magma.fi/lankar/jag-joern-donner-och-finlandssvenskheten

"Där talade han om begreppet finlandssvensk som "ett irrelevant begrepp". I själva verket representerar Donner på många sätt för mig en sådan hurri som vi tyckte illa om i Munksnäs: högljudd, självsäker, fräck och framför allt någon som absolut inte insåg själv att han var en "typisk" överklassfinlandssvensk (samma gäller i mindre utsträckning min nuvarande hustru som trodde att hon inte hade någon finlandsvensk identitet alls). Så det känns extra komiskt när Jörn Donner kommer och påstår att han inte är någon finlandssvensk. Faktiskt behöver han inte den typ av finlandsvenskhet som han representerar (ingen behöver den), men han kan ingenting göra åt det. Det är hans habitus".

"Ett annat typiskt drag hos Donner och de flesta utbildade finlandssvenskar är - det här gällde inte på 30-talet - att de tror att de inte finns någon genetisk och etnisk skillnad mellan finnar och finlandssvenskar. Men det finns numera alldeles säkra forskningsresultat som visar att finnarna skiljer sig markant (i väst- och östfinnar) och att finlandssvenskarna skiljer sig tydligt från västfinnarna. Vad sen dessa genetiska skillnader betyder, är svårt att säga.

Det är dessutom dumt att försöka eliminera en fungerande och reell gruppbeteckning. Det finns över 250 000 finlandssvenskar som upplever sig som sådana. Här utgör den motsträvige Donner bara en liten droppe i havet. Det behövs en beteckning för människor som talar svenska som modersmål i Finland.Podomi (talk) 14:14, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Now, I would like to express my concern again, as Finnic JP Roos asses, there´s a need to have a name for those Finnish citizens who has Swedish as mother-tongue. "Swedish-speaking Finn" is not a good translation for such a name. I agree it has the biggest exposure but should we really lift on pedestal, shouldn´t we think about a bit more neutral expression. Discuss.Podomi (talk) 14:43, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I must say I disagree with you. I think that Finns cannot be perceived outside of Northern Asian culture. After all linguistics are foundation for the whole culture. Even for a plain eye one recognized lot of similarities between Finns and Siberians, the solemness, shyness and, sorry if this is offensive, the shame-based culture of finns. Some may perceive them as a grose stereotyping, but let say that these characteristics are more typical to Finns than for Scandinavians f.e. Ofcourse Finns have been integrated to the Scandinavian civilization, but the origins of the culture are not from there and this is stil very evident by simple just observing finns.
What Podomi wrote above is a load of staggeringly idiotic nonsense with a slightly insane air on it. Of course, language is not the "foundation of a culture" - the ideas that are expressed with a language are the foundation.
The alleged shyness, solemness and shame-based culture are, as Podomi fairly admits, gross stereotypes. It might be that the stereotypes apply to a degree to Western Finland - i.e. the part of Finland with close historical and cultural relation to Sweden. East Finns have been traditionally considered as extroverted, talkative and pro-social. In Western Finland, it is safe to assume to that the solemn ethos (whose intensity should not be exaggerated anyway) is of recent historical origin, post-Reformation (please read some cultural history). Most certainly it is not a part of imaginary North Asian heritage. And, of course, it is dubious whether there is anything North Asian even in the linguistic origins of Finns. I must say thatt if Podomi's racist and xenophobic fervour were not so readily apparent, I would be very amused by his goofy ideas. But it is really a shame that Podomi's understanding of history is so completely nonsensical. Of course, the bare historical facts would not support his hate-tinged attempts to posit a huge mental, cultural and even racial gulf between the two major linguistic groups in Finland. Unfortunately, Podomi's extremistic agenda strongly suggests that he represents some minor fringe element among the Swedish-speakers and not any widely held opinion.--88.112.130.46 (talk) 10:26, 6 February 2009 (UTC) PS I actually have read some North Asian ethnography; and while I am fascinated by the topic, I just don't think that animistic world-view, shamanism and deer-hunting are parts of my cultural origins.
Actually lot of the ideas I expressed was from the British cultural antropologist. He is soon about to come up with a book called 'The Finnuit: Finnish Culture and the Religion of Uniqueness' in which he compared the Finnish shame-based culture with Japanese and Eskimo cultures. The idea the linguistics are the foundation to culture are ofcourse generally held consencus view among linguisticans and sociologists. North-Asians has been traditionally labelled as inferior and thus Finns want to escape from this "stigma", however, atleast I could never perceive Fenno-Ugrian speaking Finns outside the framework of Siberian Fenno-Ugrians. I think the solemness is mostly associated with Häme-Finns whom the Topelius characterized as "true Finns".
Anyway, about title of this page, I just browsed the english-speaking section of the biggest cultural NGO in Finland (Svenska litteratursällskapet i Finland) they use the term "Finland-Swedish literature, not Swedish-speaking Finnish literature.
"The Society of Swedish Literature in Finland is a scientific organisation that preserves, develops and mediates the Swedish cultural heritage in Finland".
"The Society is a versatile and future-oriented cultural institution of Finland-Swedish literature, culture and research".
My question once more, is it appropriate that we have the current title? I agree it has the biggest exposure, but the term is not neutral and should not be raised on pedestal. The Finland-Swedish political NGO´s uses the term "Finland-Swede" and even the biggest political NGO uses the expression "Finland-Swede". These issue should also reflect in the title name.Podomi (talk) 11:00, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Do we have consensus for "Swedish-speaking population in Finland" as the new title?Podomi (talk) 11:05, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, you cannot perceive me tapping a keyboard, visiting Stockholm, listening to reggae, teaching in the university and reading Strindberg outside a Siberian framework, do you? Don't you realize how insane that sounds? Well, I became curious of that British antropologist. I believe that there is a fair chance that his book can be jugded as crap, but we will see: perhaps he has an argument after all. So far, I tend to accept that the present-day stereotypes with some slight basis in reality are products of early modern history with no ancient roots. Curiously, I haven't read a sociologists' study that would posit the language as the foundation of a culture. I don't believe it is so generally accepted view in sociology as you claim. Culture is mostly non-verbal, non-discursive practice, so I think it is extremely silly to collapse a culture into a language. I withdraw myself from this nutcase debate.
The "Swedish-speaking population in Finland" in a bit problematic in the sense that Finland has some Swedish-speakers who are not traditionally considered as finlandssvenskar (immigrants from Sweden etc.). As the finlanddsvenskar is the endonyme of the minority in question and foreign ethnonymes are sometimes used in English, I ask if this article could be titled as Finlandssvenskar.--88.112.130.46 (talk) 12:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Well we shouldn´t be too anxious about other Swedish-speakers, as I have come to understand, this is a site about those who identify themseves with the term "finlandssvensk". The Swedish-speaking population is actually used quite much, by Svenska kulturfonden as well. But ofcourse "finlandssvenskar" would be the most neutral. I support that too. How about others?
I think you have little non-updated view of North-Asians. Why would a North-Asian could not sitt on Strindberg and fiddle his laptop. BTW the British antropologist asses then everything which is to be discussed about the character of Finns which doesn´t fit in the national myth, is likely to be perceived as vulgar generalization by behalf of Finns, http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/sep/23/finland.school.shooting.commentPodomi (talk) 13:36, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Well, you just don't get it. What does North Asian really mean? I do not believe in "grand traditions". I really do think that whole idea of millennia-long North Asian strain in the Finnish culture is ridiculous. Maybe the Uralic-speakers 3000 years ago shared a thing or two with rest of the Eurasian hunter-gatherers, but nowadays the Finnish culture has been defined and constituted by the Lutheran heritage, early modern North European culture, nationalism, secularization, industrialization, post-industrialization etc. The idea of some native North Asian cultural heritage lasting through the millennia through all socio-cultural upheavals is starry-eyed mystical romanticism. In other words, I think that you understand next to nothing of the present-day Finnish culture if you perceive it in some half-baked North Asian framework. But we should not discuss this here. All this nonsense about Asiatic Finns has nothing to do with the title of this article or with the definitions of the finlandssvenskar; the whole topic should not have come up here in the first place. Shall we end it here? Ppost your final comment if you must and let's stop this babble for good.--88.112.130.46 (talk) 14:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Heh. "Nowadays", as if there ever was a special connection between Finns and these "North-Asians". I wonder why Podomi doesn't emphasize quite as much the connection between the Swedish language (Gosh I cannot even force myself to say "the Swedes") and Indic languages (otherwise known as "South-Asians"?). ;) Clarifer (talk) 18:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
No final words. Let´s discuss the name! As presented "Swedish-speaking Finn" has arguably the biggest exposure, but it´s not fully neutral. Thus, the question should we really have it on pedastal above all the other suggestions. I partly concerned the lack of usage of the term among Finland-Swedish NGO´s (Finland-Swedish Think-Thank Magma, Finland-Swedish association, Swedish literature club in Finland..etc)Podomi (talk) 16:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Podomi dear, this discussion has gone on for over a month. You should have seen by now that you do not have a consensus for a page move. Why on earth should we continue this pointless discussion? You have not brought in any new arguments for weeks. Go ahead and make a move request. It won't succeed, but after it, you should not have any point in continuing this discussion. --MPorciusCato (talk) 17:33, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


What an earth are you babblling? We just have two posters, in addition to me, who has proposed "Swedish-speaking population in Finland" or "finlandssvenskar" as the title. Did you read anything I just wrote, I was being nice and made some changes to the page, you on the other hand continue to be the stubborn jackass you´ve been thoroughout the discussion. Tell me, is wikipedia´s quest to be a neutral encyclopedia? The term "Swedish-speaking Finn" is not a neutral, and no finlandssvenska NGO uses it, nor does it have a monopoly even though it arguedly has the biggest exposure. People here start to realize that eventhough they may not like me.Podomi (talk) 18:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
"No finlandssvenska NGO uses it", says Podomi. However, one needs to go no further than the English-language version of the website of the Swedish Assembly of Finland, which can be found at [7] to realise that Podomi's allegation is simply not true. The SAF, which is by far the most representative organisation of the Swedish-speaking population in Finland, uses systematically the term "Swedish-speaking Finns". Besides, if Podomi's English were just a little better, he'd certainly realise that "Finland-Swedes", quite simply, sounds like bad English. And that's what it is: a more or less clumsy attempt to force the syntax of another language (in this case, Swedish) on English. One doesn't need to be a native speaker of English in order to contribute, but at the very least one should respect the syntax of the English language. Another thing: Podomi's use of invective, such as "stubborn jackass". That kind of behaviour is definitely not accepted here and amounts essentially to testing (especially combined with the far more aggravating fact that he keeps spreading disinformation, as in the case of the SAF), just how far he can stretch the patience of the Wikipedia community. Podomi's disruptive behaviour cannot be tolerated forever. Some kind of sanctions are most obviously called for in his case.Monegasque (talk) 15:09, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for fact-finding, Monegasque. However, I think Podomi does not consider Folktinget to be an NGO, but an arm of the Finnish government. In fact, he has some basis for this: there is a separate Act of Parliament chartering Folktinget and giving it complete autonomy and a fixed support from the state budget, without any strings attached. Thus, Folktinget has state support. In Podomi's world, this means that Folktinget is a puppet of the Finnish (Finnish-speaking) state. --MPorciusCato (talk) 17:13, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
To my knowledge, he's never said as much, but in view of his other statements (which are definitely not mainstream among Swedish-speaking Finns, who tend to be quite liberal), it's quite possible that he thinks that way. However, the Folktinget is the democratic, representative organ elected by the Swedish-speaking population of Finland in connection with the municipal elections. The last time I checked, Finland was a democracy, not a dictatorship. Moreover, as you say, the state funding comes with no strings attached. If Podomi really does regard the Folktinget as some kind of a "puppet" organ, he's ever more of an extremist than I thought. By the way, I checked out the English version of the website of the Swedish People's Party [8] (which gets about 75% of the votes of the Swedish-speaking population in Finland) and, sure enough, as in the case of the SAF (Folktinget), the term it uses is "Swedish-speaking Finns". Most obviously, the use of the term "Finland-Swedes" (in English) is only a fringe phenomenon among the linguistic group itself, mostly restricted to those for whom the Swedish People's Party is far too moderate, too patriotic (in the Finnish/Finländsk sense of the word) and generally too loyal to the Finnish state. There's no way Podomi can possibly ignore all this. This means that he has quite consciously been distorting facts well known to him. I do not need to add that this is a gross violation of the most elementary rules of Wikipedia. Moreover, if one has some knowledge of German and Scandinavian history, it's very easy to recognise, based on many of Podomi's remarks above, the particular POV he's been trying to push: it is, quite simply, the traditional (although, after 1945, officially more or less banned in Germany and rejected by modern Scandinavian public opinion) pangermanic ethnic nationalism of the völkisch, Blut und Boden type. The fact that Podomi uses Carl O. Nordling, a well-known holocaust denier, as a supposedly "authoritative" source fits the picture perfectly. It's painfully obvious which source Podomi's ideological bias comes from. Wikipedia, however, is not supposed to be a forum for völkisch propaganda for Podomi and his "Gesinnungsgenossen". The activities of people of that kind need to be closely monitored. And, when the need arises, the Wikipedia community will need to take action. Even people of Podomi's (to put it very politely) highly "unorthodox" persuasion are entitled to their views, but they should definitely not be given the right to push their POV as a supposedly objective truth. Monegasque (talk) 19:02, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
1) Folktinghet is not an NGO. Folktinget is not non-affiliated of the (Finnish) goverment. Finlandssvenska political NGO´s are Finland-Swedish Association, Finland-Swedish Think-Thank. The we have cultural NGO´s as Swedish literature club in Finland (litteratursällskapet). No of these organizations uses "Swedish-speaking Finns".
"The Swedish Assembly, set up in order to keep surveillance of the Finland-Swedes’ rights, is often regarded as an official representative of Finland-Swedish society.However, as a not directly elected fully state-financed organ, it cannot be considered to represent the real interests of the minority or to constitute an NGO. In fact, by way of introduction, the Swedish Assembly did not even wish the Finland-Swedes to be considered as a national minority of Finland and still today there is no information on international law concerning Finland-Swedes available on the Assembly’s web page (www.folktinget.fi). According the last report by the Advisory Committee, para. 16, the Swedish assembly of Finland considered the Finland-Swedes not to constitute a national minority. This point of view was not shared by the majority of the Finland-Swedes. On the contrary, many Finland-Swedes support the idea of international minority protection and find it important, despite and because of the national linguistic legislation. The reason for this is that national legislation from a Finland-Swedish perspective has become a paper dragon, not operating in real life. An example of this is the Language Act anno 2004, which does not render economic sanctions possible upon neglect, nor constitutes a possibility to report potential incongruities to a Linguistic Ombudsman. Many Finland-Swedes believe that an international minority perspective may contribute to international surveillance and protection, to further emphasize national linguistic legislation and develop successful minority strategies, adapted to the real life situation of the Finland-Swedes. It is also important to keep in mind" (Finland-Swedish association, shadow report)
2)We all know what the Finns have to say on the topic, "Swedish-speaking Finns is used by Folktinget and SFP", but the fact is that this wording is not used by finlandssvenska non-goverment affiliated organizations. We cannnot give state affiliated political organs any monopoly over the term. Whether "Finland-Swedes" is bad english or not is irrevalant, it may be the only term which can use to express Finland-Swedish culture or Finland-Swedishness (an english expression the biggest Finland-Swedish cultural NGO uses) Or does someone thinks that expression such as "Swedish-speaking Finnishness" is appropriate? Moreover, the term Finland-Swede is being used by native english-speaking academics.
3) I wonder how many times do I have to heard ridiculous arguments such as ("podomis view is not supported by mainstream Finland-Swedes) Has anyone ever bothered to dig in what Finland-Swedes think about in non-govermental sponsored publications?
"Den finlandssvenska självbilden" (2008, University of Lund)
"Artiklarna som studerats ger vid handen att finlandssvenskarna som grupp upplever sig som hotad, och att detta accentuerats under senare tid. Gruppen som sådan minskar ständigt i antal, nu är finlandssvenskarna för första gången på etthundra år, färre än 300 000 invånare. Under normala förhållanden borde antalet svenskspråkiga under de senaste etthundra åren ha varit betydligt större.
Emigration och förfinskning får siffran att konstant dala. Kanske är denna ständigt dalande siffra ett uttryck för att finlandssvenskarna i landet inte trivs i Finland och upplever sig som en i vissa avseenden förtryckt minoritet. Om finlandssvenskarna upplevde, att man fritt och obehindrat kunde tala svenska i landet, och agera utifrån sådana förutsättningar, skulle antalet finlandssvenskar inte ständigt minska. I en av texterna som är från 90-talet talas det om att svenskan mer och mer intar numera en mer ceremoniell funktion i huvudstaden. Finlandssvenskar talar finska i allt större utsträckning i Helsingfors, och det som en gång i tiden var en helt svenskspråkig stad, är snart en helt finskspråkig stad.
Den dominerande finska inställningen till det svenska och överhuvudtaget allt icke finskt, kan uppfattas som stundtals närmast militant intolerant. Landet för en allmänt restriktiv invandrarpolitik. Att den så kallade äktfinska rörelsen upplever detta som positivt må vara hänt, men detta kan ha haft viss betydelse rent samhällsekonomiskt".
Den finlandssvenska gruppen upplever sig som en klart hotad grupp i landet. Det verkar som om vissa finskspråkigas inställning är, att språkkonflikten i Finland, är löst först då den svenskspråkiga gruppen i landet försvunnit helt och hållet, eller åtminstone får bli kvar som en sorts antikvarisk relik i utkanten av det finländska samhället".
4)"It's painfully obvious which source Podomi's ideological bias comes from. Wikipedia, however, is not supposed to be a forum for völkisch propaganda for Podomi and his "Gesinnungsgenossen".
So basically you are arguing that emphasizing the ethnic peculiarity of Finland-Swedes, a 5% minority, is violation against Finns and racist per se? Your absurd statements tells more about the level of your self-confidence than me I am afraid. It is never a crime or offense to speak in favor of Swedish nationality in Finland, its cultural peculiarity which exceeds the language. It is never racist for ethnic minorities to express their distinct ethnicity, this applies to Samis, Swedes, and Romas in Finland.
5)No matter how we twist this, or no matter how unappealing my views are to you, the thing that the title of the page "Swedish-speaking Finns" is against the neutrality principle of Wikipedia. Who are "Swedish-speaking Finns"? Are the Finns who migrated to Sweden in 60´s? Are the cultural group who practise "Swedish-speaking Finnishness?". Why don´t we have "Swedish Finns". Do we need to restrict finlandssvenskhet entirely as a linguistic phenomenon and forget all the ethno-cultural connotations the original expression finlandssvenskhet has for Finns and for Finland-Swedes. Please discuss.Podomi (talk) 13:40, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Could you write a little bit more concisely? Your ranting is difficult to follow. The only new thng you've taken up is: The reason for this is that national legislation from a Finland-Swedish perspective has become a paper dragon, not operating in real life. An example of this is the Language Act anno 2004, which does not render economic sanctions possible upon neglect, nor constitutes a possibility to report potential incongruities to a Linguistic Ombudsman. Many Finland-Swedes believe -- This has no relation to the name of this article, although for you, it seems a major point. (In fact, you can report any incongruities to the Parliamentary Ombudsman or to the Chancellor of Justice, who may start criminal proceedings against the erring authority if they deem fit.) It seems that you have a very solid idea of using this article to further the agenda of Finlandssvensk samling, which strives for the agenda of making finlandssvenskar a minority ethnic group, while at the moment, their language enjoys equal protections with Finnish. The organizations you try to paint as puppets are completely independent and do not have any state controls. They do receive money from the government, but it comes by law, with no strings attached. For the views opposing the clear mainstream of finlandssvensk thought, you do not give any numbers, only random quotes. "Many Finland-Swedes": How many? What organizations? What membership numbers? --MPorciusCato (talk) 15:33, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
That was report from Finland-Swedish Association, an NGO, not my personal view.
Anyway, I cannnot but wonder how senstitive article this. It even turns wikipedists held in prestige as complete child.
It should be clear we cannot have unreferenced self-manifestation in a neutral encyclopedia. The one who wrote this makes lot of naive and a bit offensive implicit statements. As if anyone who who questions the chauvinistic 19th century "one folk, one fuhrer" ideology belongs to some extreme ethnocnationalistic fringe group. This is not the view held by mainstream Finns or let alone Finland-Swedes. It should be clear we cannot go on this level in wikipedia. Lets not worsen our neutral article with individual rants. Referring Finland-Swedes as Swedes is not derogatary by mainstream Finns, its everyday life in most of Svenskfinland ( Osterbotten, Åbo archipelago, Åland islands, Western Nyland)
Among the Finnish-speaking majority, it is usually considered less polite and somewhat derogatory to refer to Swedish-speakers as "Swedes", as this expression is mostly by people belonging to ethnonationalistic fringe groups who would like to abolish the co-official status of the Swedish language and who want to emphasise the "foreign" origins of the language group. Thus, ethnicity tends to be emphasised by radical ethnonationalists among both language groups, while language as such is emphasised by the liberal mainstream among both Finnish- and Swedish-speakers and, for quite natural reasons, by the relatively large and rapidly growing group having a bilingual identity.Podomi (talk) 15:41, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Marcus Pontus where on earth have you received such a biased view of Finland-Swedes?
The ethnic territory priciple is supported by the bulk of Finland-Swedes, if non-goverment affiliated Finland-Swedish Think-Thank is to believed.http://www.magma.fi/ideer/ But I guess Magma.fi is extreme to you since after all the chief of the Think-Thank, Professor Forsgård, himself just addressed on saturdays HBL that Finland-Swedes should not just talk about the language but emphasize the Finland-Swedish culture heritage (finlandssvenska kulturarv).
Moreover, you trying to portray Finland-Swedish association as some kind of fringe group is funny, considering that the debuty "CEO" of the Swedish Poeples party himself sits on high seat on the particular NGO.
"Territorialprincipen! Det finns idag bland många finlandssvenskar en stark oro över hur svenskan ska kunna överleva i landet – en oro som även president Tarja Halonen nyligen sagt sig dela.Professorn i offentlig rätt, Markku Suksi, bekräftade häromdagen i en kolumn i Vbl, att grundlagsreformen för tio år sedan – som förändrade den föregående regeringsformens 50 paragraf – resulterade i en försämring av språkskyddet mot svenskan i Finland därför att den så kallade territorialprincipen inte blev inskriven i den nya grundlagens 122 paragraf (om den administrativa indelningen).Magma borde (tillsammans med andra parter) utreda vilka möjligheter det finns, att i den grundlagsreform som nu är på gång, igen skriva in territorialprincipen i grundlagens 122 paragraf – en förändring som onekligen kunde bidra till att stärka svenskans ställning och överlevnad i Finland." Podomi (talk) 15:54, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Is it impolite to say ruotsalainen instead of ruotsinkielinen?

It seems that Podomi disagrees with Monecasque and I about the Finnish-language usage of ruotsalainen, suomenruotsalainen and ruotsinkielinen. He considers it a joke to say that it is not standard Finnish usage to use ruotsalainen for things pertaining to finlandssvenskhet. Indeed, it is difficult to find a quote for this. The reason is that the usage of ruotsalainen is very clear to Finnish-speakers. In the meaning of finlandssvensk it is used almost solely by exteme right-wing of the Finnish-speaking population, which can be seen by a simple google search. All official and careful private writing uses ruotsinkielinen (Swedish-speaking) instead of ruotsalainen. Form ruotsalainen is used in careful writing only when discussing the early 20th century svekomani which considered Swedish-speakers to be ethnic Swedes. (As in [9].) I would like to ask Podomi how we could write this rather simple and well-known fact into the article without devolving into an edit war. --MPorciusCato (talk) 16:27, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Podomis response. The Ostrobotnian Swedes by far refers themselves as bluntly "svenskar", the Finnish Ostrobotnians refer Ostrobotnian Swedes as "ruotsalaiset", the southern Finland-Swedes prefer the expression finlandssvensk an I guess this is reciprocative. And finlandssvensk is far from being neutral expression depicting simply linguistics. And yes, I have a reference of this from Finland-Swedish sociologist Rosenberg, I also have Höckerstedts study in regards the way finns perceive finlandssvenskar and what things they associate with "Swedish-speaking Finns". Let say that not a single respondent replied "Swedish language". Moreover, I hold the view of the late professor Tore Modeen.
"The concept of nation has a different significance as meaning of a population group or an ethnic community, irrespectively of its organization. ( I prefer to use the concept of nationality in this connection).For instance, the Swedes of Finland, with their distinctive language and culture form a nationality which under the Finnish constitution shall enjoy equal rights with the Finnish nationality".
"In Finland this question (Swedish nationality) has been subjected to much discussion.The Finnish majority tries to deny the existence of a Swedish nationality. An example of this is the fact that the statutes always use the concept "Swedish-speaking" instead of Swedish".
Tore Modeen,The cultural rights of the Swedish ethnic group in Finland (Europa Ethnica, 3-4 1999, pp. 56)
MPontus your assesment on the usage of "Ethnic Swedes" is bit misleading, we still have plenty of academic studies about "Swedes in Finland" or "Swedish ethnic group in Finland". What exactly are the Finland-Swedes if not Ethnic Swedes? Ethnic Finns? Have you ever seen Finland-Swedish delegacy participating in the congress of Fenno-Ugrian people?
"They (Åland islanders) belong to the Swedish ethnic community, together with the Swedes of Sweden, and the Swedes of Finland of which Åland islanders are a part". (Europa Ethnica 1999, 3-4)
Referring Swedes in Finland as simple swedish-speaking is controversial if anything. Anyway, I am bit puzzled the way you we pay emphasis on these issue, the should focus outselves in finding more neutral title for the article, I am afraid the english expression "Swedish-speaking Finn" does pretty bad job in describing finlandssvenskhet or finlandssvenskar.
Det här gäller såväl österbottningar. De förra upplever sig ofta vara svenskar som råkar bo i Finland". (Rosenberg)
”Idén att svenskarna inte delas av statsgränsen var vanligt förr och det är fortfarande i svenskbygden med nära kontakt till Sverige.” (Höckerstedt)Podomi (talk) 17:09, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Dear Podomi, do not respond so angrily. I did not comment on the name of this article, but on a separate issue, where you have been also edit-warring: the usage in Finnish language. It is an undeniable fact that official, academic and standard Finnish always uses ruotsinkielinen (Swedish-speaking), suomenruotsalainen (finlandssvensk), never ruotsalainen. The Swedish usage (svensk) is totally irrelevant to the Finnish one, as the word svensk has two meanings in Swedish language: Swedish-speaking and Swedish by nationality. On the contrary, modern standard Finnish never uses ruotsalainen when referring to finlandssvensk, as the word almost always convays the meaning "Swedish by nationality". This has nothing to do with the name of this article, but I think it might merit mentioning in the article.
Finnish has borrowed quite a lot of lexical features from Swedish. For example, archaic and dialectal speech may use word ruotsalainen as used in Swedish. However, this is not a feature of standard Finnish language. When you make a Google search using "ruotsalainen ruotsinkielinen", the first hits are all discussion boards with extremist content. On the other hand, ruotsinkielinen is used by all main stream writing. You and Tore Modeen may think this is a feature of Finnish chauvinism, but even if it were Finnish chauvinism, it would merit mention in the article. Deleting content which does not suit you is inappropriate. --MPorciusCato (talk) 18:01, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
You should be interested in the english meaning of the word Swedish? This is not Finnish wiki.
Anyway, these citats are very clear. "De förra upplever sig ofta vara svenskar som råkar bo i Finland" "Idén att svenskarna inte delas av statsgränsen var vanligt förr och det är fortfarande i svenskbygden med nära kontakt till Sverige". The word "svenskar" in this context has obviously connotation which ecxeeds the language? This is an undeniable fact.
The Finnish linguistics and the hidden meaning of the Finnish words obviously has nothing to with Finland-Swedish article because Finland-Swedes are not Finnish-speaking and this page is not Finnish-speaking. So please skip the trollingPodomi (talk) 20:16, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


As said, the debate about semantic construction of Finnish words should not be used in the identity of Finland-Swedes section, especially when they come in a form of unreferenced self-manifesation. Anyway, we could have seperate sub-chapter of the way Finns perceive Finland-Swedes. I have academic sources which address how sensitive the Swedishness of Finland-Swedes is to Finns, and how Finns ranked Finland-Swedes at the top bottom of all European ethnicities (McRae). Ofcourse the denial of Swedish nationality also relates to Finnish perception (Europa Ethnica, 1999)Podomi (talk) 10:19, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Montesque you did a nice job, and you had references. However, I pinpointed that the view was from Tarkiainen. Based on church records we know from the fact that Swedish-speaking population has been overwhelmingly endogamous. What has happened before the church records is speculation~s. The modern DNA analysis will eventually show how close Tarkiainen was with his estimations. Moreover, Tarkiainen has based his estimations on one Finnish study from the 70´s. a Blood group study which is no longer used in population genetics due to their inherenet inaccuracy. In case Tarkiainen would have bothered to look further for internation studies, which has implied "significant and considerable" differences between the two ethnicities in Finland, his verdict might have been slightly different.Podomi (talk) 11:23, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
And Montesque what comes to your speculation of genes of West-Finns. We dont´t know, yet. We know the Swedes from Ostrobotnia cluster with Mainland Swedes. The West-Finns do not cluster with mainland Swedes but form the own cluster as do the Eastern Finns.Podomi (talk) 11:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Moreover, your text excude elitism, why would we need to address peasant and other estates. We talk about a folk, Swedish folk in Finland, and that folk is comprised of 90-95% of peasants. Peasants are the populationPodomi (talk) 11:42, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
That statement has no logical validity. I certainly don't dispute the fact that the vast majority of the Swedish-speaking population consisted of peasants. This is indeed so evident that even stating it is a truism. But even so, it is simply not acceptable to state peasantry = population, because this means forgetting the nobility, the clergy and the burghers. All of these other estates, as we know, included very large proportions of families of non-Swedish descent and it would be absurd to imply, even implicitly (that is, talking about the prevalent endogamy of the peasantry as supposedly a characteristic of the whole population) that peasant endogamy applied to them as well. This has nothing to do with elitism. On the contrary, it has very much to do with historical accuracy. On Wikipedia, we should at least make an effort to express ourselves as accurately as possible. Monegasque (talk) 21:07, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Concern for unreferenced material

1) I express my concern for the increasing amount of unreferenced material on this site. It looks like this site has been subjected to hijack by inviduals with no interest in preserving Wikipedia´s neutrality.

2) I cannnot take the sole responsibility of the correcting this site from nationalistic propaganda. So far I´ve been very nice and removed lot of academic material not so pleasant for Finns. Incase this kind of ethic nihilism continues in this and we starting to witness more of claims without any reference or whatsoever, I am forced to open a new sub-section in the site "The way Finns perceive Finland-Swedes" in which we will direct all the junk material including my real references of the Finnish perpection and the high sensitiveness and taboo-laden topic of Finland-Swedes in Finnish society. The reader of this site must understand the difference between neutreal content and the content which Finns would hope to put Finland-Swedes.

3) There seems to some kind of perverse ideology prevailing among Fenno-nationalist to whom the emphasis on the ethnic identity of Finland-Swedes would be "racist", "politically incorrect" and something the mainstream won´t tolerate. As if the identity of 5% minority would be offensive to Finns.

"Den finlandssvenska självbilden" (2008, university of Lund)

"Den dominerande finska inställningen till det svenska och överhuvudtaget allt icke finskt, kan uppfattas som stundtals närmast militant intolerant. Landet för en allmänt restriktiv invandrarpolitik. Att den så kallade äktfinska rörelsen upplever detta som positivt må vara hänt, men detta kan ha haft viss betydelse rent samhällsekonomiskt".

"Finlandssvenskarna är ingen klass utan ett folk. Att vara den man är, är en existentiell rättighet".- Gösta Ågren

4) @Monegasque, no the intermarriages between the two ethnicities are far from outnumbering the unilingual marriages, which in most of Svenkfinland (Österbotten, Åland, Åbolands archepelago) are rare.

The principle of wikipedia is that everything must be verifiable to the reader. Finland-Swedishness is senstitive issue in Finland, we cannot tolarate any unreferenced speculation in this site anymore.

"McRae distinguishes a gap in Finland between the formal ´linguistic peace´ and the practical ´linguistic instability´ which put the Finland-Swedes in a ´sosiological, psychological and political´ minority position. Consistent with this, Allardt(2000:35) claims that the most serious contemporary problem for the Finland Swedes is the members of the group themselves: their ´submissiviness´and willingness to ´conceal their Finland-Swedishness´ in the face of the majority. Furthermore, the Finland-Swedes relations to Sweden are considered a sensitive issue in Finland. Höckerstedt (2000:8-9) argues that an emphasis on the ´Swedish´part of the Finland-Swedish identity is ´taboo-laden´ and regarded as unpatriotic".

Hedberg, C. 2004.The Finland-Swedissh wheel of migration.

Hopefully everyone is willing to play by the rules.Podomi (talk) 13:45, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

As if the identity of 5% minority would be offensive to Finns. Please stop writing that kind of garbage. Your hostile stereotypes and generalisations of Finnish-speakers are the offensive thing here. "Culturally inferior Finns are doing this and Finns are doing that."--130.234.5.138 (talk) 10:17, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
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