Talk:Turkish Van/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

The mark of Noah's toe boot or God's finger?

Please write, why the beautiful legend explaining the mark on the left shoulder was changed to such a slighting story? "A large rump spot above the tail is know as the toe boot of Noah because he got tired of the vans playing on the ark and kicked them off early so they learned to swim to spite him".

There are various legends in the East, explaining the creation of domestic cat and its appearance in the Arc. But the most spread tells that the cat or a pair of cats were created by the Allmighty to help Noah to fight against the mice that endangered the Arc. Jewish legend runs that it were cats that escaped Noah's Arc and his family from sinking, because the mice started to make a hole in the Arc. And the other part of this legend explained that the Allmighty blessed the cats for their help to Noah's family, and the red marks on their coat appeared in the places, where the palm of Him touched the cats' coat.

If we want to keep the rules of the forum, why do you humiliate the breed? How do you explain the disrespect to the phenotype of the breed if you say that it was made up by the kick of someones' toe boot, even if it was Noah's boot or toe?--Zara-arush (talk) 00:13, 18 June 2009 (UTC)--Zara-arush (talk) 00:18, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to those, who assisted in editing the legends on cat creation. I added to links there. I remember another author, who had written his own version of the know Jewish legend on how the cat was created, but I failed to find the site. I will be thankful, if a person, who know the author, make the addition.--Zara-arush (talk) 20:07, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The "Turkish Van" is a breed of cat that originated in breeding pens of US cat breeders the 1960s - as such it can have no genuine "legends" attached to it. I have removed that section from the article. Meowy 16:11, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Good pictures of Turkish Van cats

I offer to add several high quality pitures of pedigree Turkish Van cats, and delete the pictures of Van Kedisi. I hope TUV bredders of semilong haired TUVs will insert such pictures. The pictures should show the cat standing on its four legs, as well as the head, profile, the tail, the colors, and even cats of different lines. It would be very helpful to explain the difference between TUVs, Van Kedisi, and Anatoli (WCF recognozed SH Vans).--Zara-arush (talk) 20:10, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Legends about the marks of Van cat

I added some passages to the article about Turkish Van cat. I am the author of these passages, and they are of my articles on Turkish Van cat. If I shall confirm that I did it at my good will, please inform me, and I will send the confirmation e-mail to the address, you mention.--91.210.40.251 (talk) 00:38, 24 June 2009 (UTC)--Zara-arush (talk) 00:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Who did "develop" the breed?

"There is also a controversy regarding whether the cat should be referred to as the "Turkish Van", which is largely surrounding the question of whether the breed was really "developed" by Turks, or otherwise by Kurds or Armenians (see respective article)". The Near-eastern wild cat (f. s. lybica) was domesticated 10,000 years ago. The white spotting appears at the coat of homologue animals subjected to the process of domestication at the earliest stages of it as the first reply of organizm to domestication. The white spotting is one of the earliest mutations in cats that originated before the luxory mutations. Any of such mutations took several centuries, if not millennia. The cat were domesticated by some ancient proto- tribes, when they passed to settled life, began to build houses, and went on crop farming. The proto- tribes that did not pass to settled style of life and had no granaries, were not interested in wild cats to domesticate them. Thus, taking into consideration the settled life periodization, and need in rodent hunters, as well as the relatively short time, when the Turks and Kurds passed to settled style of life, these two ethnic groups may not be considered the breeders of archaic domestic cats of any type. It is also confirmed by the lack of the tradition of having cats as house pets, i.e. inside the human dwelling, the evidence of @it being the excellent job, performed in Van Cat House.--Zara-arush (talk) 20:32, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

To Meowy

"Removing "legend" nonsense - the breed is no older than the 1960s so can have no legitimate legends". The breed has been always characterized as "Natural", and there was a discussion about it here. There are no "natural" breeds of domestic animals, becuase these breeds were created by someone long before us. I again write that the frequency of the pattern in Van Lake area proves that there was some special place (like a temple) that these cats had been gathered and preserved, and bred. It could be only before the Armenians adopted Christianity, when the animals used in pagan cults were not bred. But the cats preserved and they stayed with the local people in their houses (not near the villages). Only people, who warshiped Sun gods could gather in special places Van Cats with the marks corresponding in color to the Sun rise/dawn. And the legends are what preserved to our days of this cult. One legend is Jewish, the other was represented as Turkish. But both the legends add one another. And if you do not believe, put your right hand in the jesture of Armenian blessing on you cat's heat, you will see that the van marks will be in the places, where your hand will touch the cat. --Zara-arush (talk) 20:44, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

And, historically, Lake Van was thick with Jews, and Turks. Not! The "Turkish Van" breed (with the markings you talk about)is no older than the 1960s. Anything else should go into the Van Cat entry (which is what the Van Kedisi entry needs to be renamed to). But these fancyful modern myths aren't going to make it to there either unless you can come up with legitimate sources that show them to be proper traditions. By legitimate sources I mean proper folkloric studies, not cat fancier magazines. Meowy 20:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

This sort of article is a textbook case for all that is wrong with Wikipedia. It's a case of garbage in garbage out. If all the sources on a subject are, essentially, propagandistic and full of self-seeking lies then what does that make the content of an article on that subject. The equally nonsensical "Roman shield, pennant, battle in Armenia" rubbish took ages to remove because it was in those same sources and those sources needed their credibility intact to support the whole false "Turkish Van" edifice. Meowy 21:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, if you are so determined against the reconstruction of the folklore about van pattern, that you deleted it for the second time, why you did not act in the same way, when the legend, humiliating the breed, about the Noah's kicking out the cats? I edited this part, only because of the existance of this attempt to depreciate van patterned Van cat and to elevate the all-white Turkish mix of Angora and Van cats. Your approach may not be treated as impartial. And if you are so "encyclopedic", why you do not place a good picture of show class van patterned TUV in the article? The average people, who read the article, will not understand all this long discussion in favor of TUVs, because of the pics place in the article. The best pic in the article is the photograph of Van Guzeli Iskenderun! If you are not an expert in cat breeding, will you get interested in such a breed! So, I will recover again the passage about the legend, and I will ask you not to delete it. The existance of the Jewish legend on how the cat was created in the Noah's Ark is out of the questioning. The Persian proverb on how the cat was created is also well-known. The legend that the cat/cats was/were blessed by the Creator was retold by some cat fancier. I just joined these two legends. When the geneticists will count the term, when van pattern and red color gene mutations occured, it will confirm, what I say about term of the origination of the legend. To say that the story of TUVs starts from 1955, is in-objective. Laura Lushington herself had written that the first 2 cats were mating true, and their kittens proved that these cats had already formed genotype and haplotype. The rush with "all-whiting" started much later. I have reasons to support this point of view, and the unique reason is to do my best to preserve TUVs for further generations, without introducing in the breed foreign genetic markers, such as mix-breed Angoras, Siamese, and other younger haplotypes. You may experiment with any of the new, artificial and commercial breeds, but not with TUVs and even TUAs. They are the feline genetic reserve stock.--91.210.41.130 (talk) 11:04, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

And one thing also. I am not going to enter into any discussion with the fanciers of Van Kedisi, as I refused two years ago, when my article, actually was retyped in Germany. And if you offer to move the legend on van-patterns in the same article with Van Kedisi, it means you want to push me in the senseless confrontation with those, who support the Turkish idea of the breed. Do you decided this way to stop me supporing the Armenian origin of the breed? It only means that my writing is the best support for the van-patterned TUVs.--91.210.41.130 (talk) 11:10, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

"And, historically, Lake Van was thick with Jews, and Turks." To write down the legend and insert in Haggada the Jews did not need to reside in Van lake area in enormous quantities. The fact is that there were Jews in Van, and they were moved from Van together with other inmhabitants to Nor Juga, but the Armenians mostly returned after Shakh Abass death. There were numerous Armneians, who had hidden themselves, because they did not want to live their houses and Motherland. For instance, my earliest known ancestor escaped from being moved to Isphaghan from Artsakh. And his story had been written down by my grandfather. Though the book on the history of my mother's ancestry had not been published, I do trust to my grandfather's evidence. The Turks do they best to crush anything, relating to Armenian culture, so any evidence shall be preserved. When the trustworthy party will start the excavations, they will find the sources that you are demanding of me.

And please, do not enter in editing battle with me. It is not justy, and it is not good, first of all for you. The cats were really blessed and do have their guardian angel :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zara-arush (talk • contribs) 11:50, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it probably is no good to argue with you - your concepts of what constitutes proper, credible sources seem to differ substantially from what is required. I realised after dealing with the Roman shield, pennant, battle in Armenia nonsense that rather than oppose an editor who is ideologically opposed to seeing the truth (in that older case the editor was a POV-warring, Turkish Van-owning administrator) that what I should have done is simply removed the source because it was not a valid source: a cat fanzine is not a credible source for a controversial archaeological claim. Neither, I believe, would a cat fanzine be a credible source for a claim about folklore. At the moment there is confusion in the "Legend of the coat markings" section about whether its content even has a source! I am editing out the two external weblinks - they are not appropriate things to have within the body text of a wikipedia article, relevant external links should be placed in an external links section. I am also asking you to come up with sources for this section's claims, asap. Meowy 18:34, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Contribution by new editor

I have a source from 1980 which shows a Van with pale but definitely visible patterned coat swimming in a stream in Van, and one of LushinghamLushington's litters, which are all showing the red ears red tail markings (The Book of The Cat, ed by Michael Wright for New Leaf Books Ltd and published by Pan in paperback, 1st ed from 1980, chapter on Angoras and Vans). Quite interestingly, this source (which was entirely written by the experts of the day) says that Van cats are a type of Angora, and gives the local name for the odd eyed white cats as Ankara kedi, not Van kedi. It also says that the orginal Angora (not Van) breed specification was all-white, because the purists felt that the only true Angoras were all-white, although it goes on to say that Turkish Angoras came in red tabby and silver tabby as well as white. And finally, it says that Ankara Zoo has a breeding programme for the recording and conservation of white Angora (not Van) cats, although this "is discounted by others".

I found the last item particularly interesting, given that the book is 30 years old. Unfortunately, my Turkish is non-existent, so I cannot tell if Zahit Tevfik Agaoglu's career goes back that far, although I suspect it does from the volume of research papers.Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:21, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

"The Turkish Van, called pişik in its homeland". The good source to translate even isolated Turkish words is Babel or any simple electronic dictionary. "Cat" in the Indo-European languages is usually has the same root, i.e. - "kato", "gatu", "kotka", "kiska", ""katu". There another Armenian root for cat and another Armenian word for cat: "piso" and its derivative form with endearment suffix: "pisik" - "small cat or kitty". It passed in other Indo-European languages in the form: "pussi". The same is with the name of the cats of Van: "Vana katu" that was adopted by the Turkish language as "Van kedi/kedisi", or "Vana piso/pisik", adopted as "Van pişik". And I consider it is not correct to right about how cats are named in Turkish in the first part of the phraze about the breed.--Zara-arush (talk) 14:10, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

(I;ve also put a note on your talk page, sorry I didn't see this note here) - I do think it belongs in the lede, reverted it before I saw this note. Let's leave it for a moment, get the opinion of others. If consensus is to move, I'll sort the reference out (you broke it by accident). Out of interest, I didn't attempt a translation because the source gave none, just said that was what the cat was called.

I reverted your other addition - about native Van cats being only white - because it was unreferenced and contradicted by pretty much every other source around, including all of the ones I added.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:11, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Have seen Meowy's comments about Vans originating in US breed programme in 1960s. I can confirm that this is incorrect per my 1980 source. Other sources already in article confirm that Lushingham Lushington picked up her Van kittens in Turkey - they were red and white, and breed standard in US & UK was established as red and white with Van pattern. However, 1980 source states that British breeders recreated the Angora (not Van) in the 1950s and 1960s to produce cats that were identical to the genuine Turkish Angoras that had been imported to Britain in the 1800s, but which had disappeared from Britain following two world wars. They were bred in a complete range of colours (presumably because the cats used as the breeding base supported this), unlike the US Angoras, which were Turkish Angoras, and which were restricted to whites until 1978. Which suggests to me that what is happening is that various parties are setting up to claim that Angoras are a kind of Van, rather than Vans being a kind of Angora.Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

You 1980s source must be full of lies. There are no references to "Turkish Vans" earlier than the coining of the name by cat breeders in America, and there are no references to their so-called "Van pattern" earlier than the 1960s (when it was created and standardised in the breeding program). Meowy 17:16, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Missy - you are totally incorrect - the term Turkish Van predates American breeders and was in existence when the first ones were brought to the US -> remember the US started with the breed later than the Europeans. dvancat

Whoa, m'dear. Scale your language back - you are coming over all monomaniacal, and that's never good. I apologise if I was less than clear - my source uses the terms Turkish cat and Turkish Van to refer to the show breed types in the UK and US. There was some reference to what Angora cats are called in Turkish, but no mention of what the natives of Van called their cats. The red and white colouring is clearly older than the breed standard - probably a great deal more random as well - but I have no source to support the notion that all Van cats in Turkey are any specific colour. My source only suggests that odd eyed white Angoras - Ankara kedisi - were a recognised breed type in Turkey, along with Sarman (red tabby) and teku (silver tabby). This was contrasted with the Angora breed standard, which up to 1978 required the show Angora to be white.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:25, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Your writing the name as "Lushingham", explains your "good knowledge of the source you have", and makes the discussion with you funny. Before trying to edit anything, please get better study of the subject, i.e. if you do not know how much is 2x2, first go to school. Best wishes,--Zara-arush (talk) 15:54, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

You need to be considerably less rude m'dear. Apart from any issue of civility, it can often be considered a sign that one is losing the argument.Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:03, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I do not lose the arguments, and again I say, if your knwoledge of feline breeding and Turkish Van history is limited by what you have written above, it is absurd to discuss anything with you. Sorry, if you thought that I am rude. I prefer to discuss anything with an expert.--Zara-arush (talk) 16:16, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah but Wikipedia is the encyclopaedia that anyone can edit. So telling someone they cannot edit because they are not an expert is discouraged. Telling someone with sources that your unsourced statement is more correct than theirs is considered original research and is really frowned on. However, if you have a better source than mine, which actually says that in Turkey only the white cats are considered to be real Van cats, then please do add that information.Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:23, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, the reality is that there are only all-whites at the show of Van Cat house. And it is the best source. And, it is good to have the irresistable inspiration for writing, and any person may start it at any age, but not any person makes it public. --Zara-arush (talk) 16:34, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

After reading once more the information submitted by Elen of the Roads: "gives the local name for the odd eyed white cats as Ankara kedi, not Van kedi", I do not understand, what do we discuss here? Your source just confirms that odd eyed white cats were named 30 years ago Ankara kedi, not Van kedi. What do we oppose about? Or these words are not yours? If we discuss Turkish knowledge of cat genetics and fundamentals of cat breeding, I have no desire to continue it, because it is fruitless to educate the whole Ministry or Chair of Veterinary medicine. If you are eager, you may try yourself. Best wishes! --Zara-arush (talk) 16:44, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict):I've never seen the Van Cat house - I don't know it has all white cats. Even if it does, I don't know that this means that only white cats are counted as Van cats in Turkey. This is what you need sources for. I have a source that says that the Turkish government says that Van cats still live in the area (they are not 'feral' as you said - a feral animal is a fully domesticated one which has reverted to wild living). that Van cats have a variety of colours including the red and white combo, and three different sets of eye colour combinations, and that all colourways are protected because of their rarity.Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:51, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I was quoting from a source, I am interested in the way it shows that animals that were described as Angoras seem to now be being described as Vans. I think this may support an assertion that Vans are a kind of Angora, which it says in my source, but I thought you might have sources that refute that. If you have sources that oppose mine, I am happy to discuss how both positions can be accommodated - or even to accept that one of my sources is out of date. However, I am not going to believe anything just because you tell me it is true, not because I think you are an untruthful person, but merely because Wikipedia requires all content to be verifiable through the use of reliable sources.Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

1) I copied from Turkish Angora cat article just for you: "The Turkish Angora (Turkish: Ankara Kedisi) is a breed of domestic cat". It shows that your addition with "pisik" is usually done in a well-written artilce. 2) If you really want a respectful source, try to read "Descent of cat breeds" and relating articles both in popular and research magazines. You may find the links in various cat articles in Wikipedia as well. --Zara-arush (talk) 17:06, 15 July 2009 (UTC)--Zara-arush (talk) 17:07, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Re (1) - I'm sorry, I don't think I quite get what you mean to say. I know Ankara Kedisi is a breed of domestic cat - it's a white angora with odd eyes. What interests me is that 30 years ago, no-one was referring to Van Kedisi.

Re (2) - do one of those sources say that in Turkey only the all white cats are regarded as true Vans? If so, paste the quote in here and lets have a look at it.

Reading around about the Van Cat House, it appears to me that (1) the chap is using it mostly as a research station examining the ailments of his cats (he has published a lot of papers about them) and (2) if he is saying that only the white ones are "true" Vans, I can't find any evidence that the Turkish govt supports this position. So if you have the evidence, bring it out and we can look at it.Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:16, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

"What interests me is that 30 years ago, no-one was referring to Van Kedisi". Let's rephrase this to reflect reality. "What interests me is that 40 years ago, no-one was referring to Turkish Vans, or to any cat with the markings that are now used to define the Turkish Van breed." Meowy 19:30, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah, now you see.....I'd really rather you didn't put words into my mouth here. I venture that you can't imagine what I'm thinking.

We all agree (well, I do anyway) that the modern US and UK show animal is the product of selective breeding that produces enormous animals with consistent markings to meet the breed standard. However, the book contains a picture of a cat from Van swimming in a river in the Van area. The cat is white, and has red ears and a tail, and a splodge on its back corresponding to the "Allah's thumbprint" legend told of cats from the Van area that swim and have splodgy marks on their backs. Hence it follows that cats in the Van area thirty years ago did swim and have said markings, unconnected to the activities of the cat fancies of the west. Therefore, people - including the sources responsible for the book - could perfectly legitimately speak of cats that lived in the Van area which swam, and were predominantly white with red ears and tails. However, if they asked what these cats were called, they don't seem to have got an answer (other than probably "cats - what did you think they were, donkeys?")

Of course, as the first cats brought to the west after WWII were white with red ears and tails, it appears people in the US and UK assumed that all cats from the Van area were white with red ears and tails, something that does not appear to be true. Just as they assumed in the US (but not the UK) that all "true" Angoras were white. What does interest me is that 30 years ago someone recorded the Turkish name of the white Angora as Ankara kedi, indicating that the Turks specifically recognised the odd eyed white cats, and that someone noted that the Turks allegedly had a breeding programme for odd eyed white Angora cats at Ankara Zoo, while 30 years later they appear to have a breeding programme for odd eyed white van cats at Ankara Zoo, which are being called Van kedi. So I'm wondering (on the basis of no reliable sources) whether these are in fact the same breed of cat.Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:46, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't intending to put words into your mouth - but I was intending to get you to think about what you had written. However, that is going to be difficult if you are going to rely on the false information contained in that book. If that is really the photo's caption, them the book is lying to you. Apart from the random colour variations you get amongst all cat populations, there are no cats from the Van area that are white with red ears and tails. So the photo is a fake. The Angora cat issue is a side-issue and off-topic. Why are you speculating on things you have no actual information about? Sure, it is likely that they are related to Van cats, probably because the medieval trade toutes from Persia to central Anatolia went through Van and Angora and cats were a known export from Van. Angora cats were as common as muck in Ankara in the 19th century. Then, in the 1920s, (after the "unpreserving" the Greek and Armenian populations that had generally owned the cats), Ataturk sought to preserve them by establishing a breeding program and making severe restrictions on their ownership and export. As a result, they promptly almost went extinct. Outside of the Ankara Zoo and a few select owners there are no Angora/Ankara cats in Ankara today. Whereas in Van, in 1951, writes Yaşar Kemal, "Is it possible to come to Van, explore it, and then go away without mentioning the famous Van cat? ... Some people say that nobody bothers about them any more and that they are near extinction and other say there are plenty of them, one in every house. They proved to be right, for there is one in every home. ... The Van cat is quite large and milky white and when curled up you take it for a heap of cotton, so white is it." Meowy 16:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

You really must take care, some of the things you say are sounding quite bizarre - like those chaps who insist that the moon landings never happened. Why on earth should the photograph be a fake?

Why on earth should the Turkish government say that Van cats have red ears and tails if they know the cats are white. Come to that, if they are Angora cats (which it would appear more modern genetic research suggests they are not) why should they just be white? Native Angoras don't just come in white, although the white ones have been selectively bred for a long time. I note your source. I also note that all cats illustrated by Ancient Egyptians are "cyprians" (mackerel tabbies). However, I also know that archaeologists have established that Egyptian domestic cats came in other colours. One guesses that the cyprians were prized over the others. Maybe it is the same with Van cats?--Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:26, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Armenian writer, born in Van, Vrtanes Papazyan (1866–1920), had written a short story, named "Vana katu" ("Van cat"). Armenian poet Paruyr Sevak (1924-1971) wrote about Van cats in the poem (published in 1959) and how they were used by the Turks during the Genocide of Armenians in 1915-1918. My neighbour's mother had "Vana katu", named Shushik. My neighbour is more than 80 years old, i.e. she was born before 1930. If the cat was brought to Armenia as a kitten in 1918, it was about 12 years old in 1930. My father's colleges had Vana katu that was used to sleep in the bath with water. I was a child (about 11 years old), when I first heard about it, and I guess it was the descendant of real Vana katu that could only be braught to Armenia in 1918. I mentioned 2 written sources that used Vana katu much earlier than it was introduced in Europe. Both sources had been published and translated to foreign languages. You may question the facts that I tell you about, as the untrustworthy source, as if the Armenians who fled from Van in 1918 had to make photographs (digital) to submit you as the evidence at Wikipedia. Too familiar and recognizable approach, my dear. --Zara-arush (talk) 23:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I believe that we have been at crossed purposes due to language difficulties. Hopefully my comments below show that I am not doubting that Van cats are an old breed.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:26, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Elen, you had written: Re (1) - I'm sorry, I don't think I quite get what you mean to say. I mean that there is an admited form, how to construct the entrance sentance, if one want to give the usage of the word (notion) in other language, the same is in Wikipedia, as I noticed. Your edition of the first sentence is not correct in the first sentence. I ask that someone, better yourself, reword it. Then, as I explained already, "pisik" is one of the two words for cat, but not for "Van cat". And, the last for this very sentence, if we introduce the translation or equivalent in other language, it is unanimously admited that it shall be introduced in several languages, where this subject (in our case - Van cat) exists in its original form, i.e. ("vana katu" in Armenian, "van kedisi" in Turkish), if the Kurds have special naming of Van cat the name of the Van cat in Kurdish.

And two other observations. 1) The cats (pedigree, ferals and random-bred - or if you prefer in-and-out cats) are domestic animals. Their phenotypes do not reflect the response of their biological organizsms to nature and climate. But it is product of human selection, though it may be premeditated or not. Thus, we shall not ommit that the phenotypes of even so called "natural" breeds were produced not by pure nature, but by human artificial selection. The other thing is that it became a prevailing approach to explain and describe the phenotypes of these "natural" breeds. But the science is developing, and I guess, the encyclopedic articles shall reflect the results of modern research.

2) Van lake area had never been isolated like an island in the ocean. City of Van was a large administrative, commercial and cultural center within the last 2-3 millenia (at least). The Silk Way had passed through the province. Thus it is not correct to write about the region as a "rugged" terrain. There were excellent roads connecting the local commercial centers all along Silk Way in the part that passed through the province. Thus, Van cats remained in their original phenotype, because the cats were imported from the region. The same was with Angora cats of ancient Ankira, as well as with the long-haired cats of Horasan, Persia. There had not been the inmort of cats to Van lake region from other regions: South Asia, Russia, Western Europe, etc. Owing to it these cats preserved in their original haplotypes. And genetically the Vans and Angoras are different and separate breeds that shall not be mixed.

We should be thankful to L. Lushington that on noticing a new phenotype, unknown in Europe, she appreciated their appearance and braught the cats to Britain. Owing to it, this type of cats was preserved, becuase it could have been lost if the cats stayed only in their feral form or whitened by the further artificial selection, reflecting the tastes and preferences of Turkish community (because I could not get any news about the Kurdish point of view on Van cat from the participants of this discussion, who support the Kurdish origin of Van cat). --Zara-arush (talk) 10:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for expanding on what you meant - I understand what you were asking me to do now. As regards the research, thank you for the information. When I set out the content of my old source book here, I expected that some of it would be out of date, particularly the suggestion that the Van cat was a form of Angora. It almost looks as if in the modern day, some Turkish breeders are trying to make a white version of the Van to match the white Angoras that were introduced to the West after World War II. They could do this in a short space of time, as shown by the fact that UK breeders recreated the show Angora purely by breeding from short haired orientals, not by importing cats from Turkey, in the space of 20 years.Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

And yes, there's no doubt in my mind that the Van, distinguished by its water shedding coat, its habit of swimming, and by the frequent occurrence of a stable pattern of red and white marks, has existed as a recognisably separate form of cat in the Van area for a long time. I think this article would be better if it included all the information on the Van cat both as a Western breed and in its native habitat, as is done with the articles on the Turkish Angora, Persian (cat) and Siamese (cat) Meowy may object to this. I appreciate the position he or she is taking in that the term "Turkish Van" is a very modern construct and represents only the Western breed standard, so it may be better to rename the article to Van (cat), in line with Siamese(cat) and Persian (cat) to avoid any problem. One can then include information on the origin of the breed in its native homeland, recent changes to the breed standard in Turkey, the way the cat has become a rallying point for the various ethnic groups in the area, the genetic information that you have, and so forth. The Van Kedi and Van Kedisi articles could redirect here, and the information be incorporated. I think this would make a better article, as it would be more complete, but await the opinion of others before any drastic action.Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:55, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

"There's no doubt in my mind". Alas, doubt seems to be exactly what you need the most right now. If you think you are going to get away with filling this article with lies and removing other articles for POV reasons, then your lack of doubt is moving into delusion. Meowy 16:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear, Elen or Helen or Yalens, I thought you really understood, what I ment in my explanation that the edition of the first sentense you did should be recovered to its previous to your edition form. I am still waiting that you take away your ideas about the Turkish etymology of word "pisik".

Then, it is not only Meowy that is against the murge of the breed Turkish Van cat and Van Kedisi. They are different things, and they are not the same both by their genetics, and their cultural and historical backgrounds. All-white Van Kedisi are bred by the Turkish breeders and their fanciers. Turkish Van cat is an acient type of cat that was escaped by Laura Lushington by means of creating a separate breed that was recognized by the name Turkish Van cat. The Turkish breeders had refused from Turkish Van cat in its van patterned phenotype. If it is not true, why do they so much insist on all-whites? It is their tradition and it is their taste. But why do the van patterned Van cats shall be ruined as a unique group of cats with their traits and merits? Isn't it enough to express condolences to each other because of HCM of your TUVs. And the affected were only several lines that were introduced the evil genes for achieving higher titles. What will it be, if you mix over all the lines with offspring of all-white Angora mixes with their set of heriditary disorders and illnesses? It looks like the wellfare of cats doesn't touch you, as well as the people: both the owners of these cats, and others, who you do not know, because there is nothing written about them in your reliable sources.--Zara-arush (talk) 19:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Do you have any idea how EXTREMELY UNACCEPTABLE it is to accuse another editor of being a sockpuppet without any evidence. You may be experiencing difficulties in communication, but please do not accuse me of being other people again, or you may find the matter raised elsewhere.

Should you wish to change any part of the article, you are free to do it, just do not screw up the references in the process like you did last time. Bear in mind though that if you remove any referenced material, you may be reverted and warned.

Should you wish to pursue your assertion that the Turkish government is doing this, that or the other thing to Van cats, then provide a source that says so. So far you have produced a lot of words, but no sources. Without sources, you can contribute nothing to the article. This is how Wikipedia works.

Now, having got that out of the way, would you like to give an opinion on the suggestion that the article be renamed? Wikipedia works collegiately - I can see a number of views here that are incompatible with the current title of this article.Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:04, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Sources

For several times I had neglected all the attepts to involve me in making a larger contradiction between my idea of Turkish Van cat and official or non-official Turkish approach to the breed of purebred Turkish Van cats. I hope you are not so naive, as you try to present yourself. What sources for their denial of van-patterned cats do you demand from me? If you say "Van cat", they understand all-white "Van kedisi". If you say: "Why did you poisoned 200 Van cats?", they truly lie you: "We do not have 200 Van cats in Van", because they mean "We do not have 200 all-white Van Kedisi in Van area". What is the color of the cat meeting the tourists at the entrance of Van? If they did not neglect van-patterned Van cats, they would not place this kitsch piece of art there --Zara-arush (talk) 01:42, 17 July 2009 (UTC).--Zara-arush (talk) 01:42, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Future direction

Meowy , I have reverted your changes pending the outcome of the discusson outlined below. If you could refrain from abusing me I would prefer it, otherwise I shall just have to read round those bits. No-one is posting lies or pushing a POV here - although you are acting as if you own this article, which you do not. Do you really believe that there are no cats in the Van area?. I find that hard to believe. Rather is your objection merely to making any mention of the cats of the Van area in the article on Turkish Vans. If this is the case, would I be correct in assuming that your preference is for a separate article on Van (cats)?

Let's have a little discussion. As people want to write an article about the unusual and notable cats in the Van area, we simply must recognise that and find some way of including the information in the encyclopaedia. Should this article be renamed Van (cat), along the lines of Persian (cat), to allow it to expand and include information on the cats of the Van area, or should we create another article named Van (cat) that references this article when referring to the western show animal, removing any reference to the native cats of the Van area from this article? The risk to the second option is that at some point, some other editor will merge Van (cat) with Turkish Van, observing as they do that Siamese and Persians do not have one article for the native breed and another for the show breed.Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:12, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Nice photy

After Meowy insisted that the photo in my old book must be a fake (see above), I thought I'd trawl through some tourist piccies taken in the area, see if they recorded any marked Van cats. Most are white cats, but there are some marked ones. If the article does get renamed to Van (cat) it would be useful to have pictures of the cats in their native land. If any of the pix are useful, it may be possible to get permission from the owner to use them.

• This is the website of a Kurdish rug seller (or a seller of Kurdish rugs) in Dogubayazit. [2] Scroll down the page, he has two lovely pictures of Van cats in their native home. The cats have red ears and tails.
• This is from some guy's livejournal account [3] of a trip through the area [4]. The cat is odd eyed and predominantly white, but clearly has some reddish markings on the chest, belly and paws.
• This is interesting. It's the website of a US breeder. If you scroll down to the second image (Elmas) this is a female Van cat that was brought into the US from Turkey. The cat has classic Van pattern markings, but in black rather than red. [5]. This website also has some things to say about Turkish breeders, but I'm not sure it would pass as a reliable source
• This is from a Turkish property website. Curiously, although it says that Vans are all white, the cat in the picture plainly has orange markings on the head between the ears.[6] I cannot guarantee in this case however that the photo is not simply a stock one of an American van cat.Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:57, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I wish you could recognise your absolute ignorance about this subject. But why bother - your stupidity is an unsurmountable barrier. I guess I'll just wait until you tire of it all and leave the article alone. NONE of the photographs in those sad little websites depict anything except the habit of sad little websites to ignore copyright laws and use photos taken by others. Meowy 01:04, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I am not going to make any further contributions to this article or its talk page for a short period, probably 3 or 4 weeks. The article is too full of nonsense to be dealt with in small chunks, and it is difficult for me to keep a cool head when faced with the many unencyclopedic OR opinions that are being expressed here. It will be easier to deal with the article's content problems once its content has become stabilised. Meowy 02:28, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Legend of the coat colour

I have reposted the text to here, as I think the author is struggling with the Wikipedia concept of verification by sources, and just templating the text won't actually help much.

• But the Turks do not explain, why the Allmighty blessed the cat....the Turks, in narrating the legend on how the red marks appeared on the Van cat coat, does not give any convincing explanations, why the All-Mighty Creator blessed the cat. I have seen several versions of the legend. It is not clear that not all of them are Turkish. You need a source to confirm this statement.
• And the answer to the question, why, according to the above legend, the All-Mighty Creator had blessed the cat, is in the same source that preserved for us the legend on Noah and the tasting of the first wine produced after the Flood. It turned out that our Lord had created the cat because the cat caught and killed the mice that tried to make a hole in the bottom of the Noah’s Ark . (1) could you provide a page where that text appears. (2) is this a christian or jewish legend?
• So, the legend may only prove that an ancient cult, respecting the red-and-white Van cat, existed on the shores of Lake Van in the period of early heathendom. And if one takes into consideration that the continuous non-nomadic settlement of other, except the Armenians, ethnic groups on the Armenian Upland started during the last 5 to 6 centuries, i. e. much later than the named images of the Van cats appeared, then it may be understood that the legend, as well as the breed itself, has passed to the Turks from other ethnic groups “by succession”. I think I already said that this is speculation. You can't put this kind of information into Wikipedia unless you have a published secondary source (who is not you) which has said these things.
• The cats excel in their fertility, and it looks like that can't say that - in Wikipedia terms it's known as weasel words. which helpful phrase means avoiding saying straight out whether something is or is not.
• as in other Indo-European nations, the Armenians’ respect for the cat had some relationship to the worship of the mother goddess.
• It is also known that there was a temple of Astghik, heathen goddess, which in the earliest period of heathendom was worshiped as mother-goddess, in the ever-existed village of Artamet, located on the shore of Lake Van, that later became a residential suburb of the city of Van, famous for its exclusively tasty apples. This sentence appears completely irrelevant, and would need a citation for the temple, for the goddess, for the fact that the village "ever existed" (do you mean "was always there", not "might not have existed"), for the village becoming a suburb of Van, and for the tasty apples. I'd just leave it out.
• The cat completed the Creator’s will, and thanks to it the cat saved Noah’s family, and, correspondingly, the whole mankind, which means both you and me, and all of us. This is a religious belief. You cannot state this as a fact.
• Such is it, the Cat of Lake Van, or simply “vana katu” in Armenian. Needs a reference for vana katu, which should go in the lede, along with the turkish word. The rest of the sentence doesn't actually make sense in English unfortunately.Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:49, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

There is no justice in the world!

I gave the links to the sources, where one of the legends is given as Jewish - Rabbic. The other link was added by you - Turkish legend. The 3rd link was to Persian historian and the 1st part of the legend, how the cat was created. It was not me, who deleted 2 different links of mine.It is about 7 o'clock in the morning. I need to have a sleep.--Zara-arush (talk) 02:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

What exactly do you want me to prove in the following:

So, the legend may only prove that an ancient cult, respecting the red-and-white Van cat, existed on the shores of Lake Van in the period of early heathendom. And if one takes into consideration that the continuous non-nomadic settlement of other, except the Armenians, ethnic groups on the Armenian Upland started during the last 5 to 6 centuries, i. e. much later than the named images of the Van cats appeared, then it may be understood that the legend, as well as the breed itself, has passed to the Turks from other ethnic groups “by succession”. --Zara-arush (talk) 02:03, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I need also go go to bed. I didn't see a link to a Persian historian. I didn't think I deleted one, but apologies if I did. Please post it here and lets see what it says. And could you give the page of the book for the Jewish legend, when you have a moment.

What I want you to prove with the other paragraph is just to show the world that you didn't make it up. Who, other than you, thinks that this might be true. Where is it published? What evidence is there? What is your source for this ancient cult? What are these 'named images of Van cats' that have suddenly popped up. Which archaeologists, anthropologists, historians or linguists have proposed this theory.Elen of the Roads (talk) 02:12, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Your question is unclear to me. If you are interested, read more. I put the link to Artamet/Ardemit and the tasty apples. You may also read Paruyr Sevaks poem "Anlreli Zangakatun" ("Bell Tower that will never stop ringing") where he mentioned Artamet and discribed the apples. I had written about Paruyr Sevak already. It is rather difficult for me to find out, what simple things you do not know.--Zara-arush (talk) 02:28, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

As for ancient cats, one had been excavated in the fortress of Van, the other was excavated several decades earlier in Yerevan by Piotrovski. Good-night and sweet dreems!--Zara-arush (talk) 02:33, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

No "ancient cats" have been excavated in the fortress of Van, but the bones of a domestic cat were found in the Urartian city-site of Anzaf. Meowy 02:14, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your explanations. I do not know Turkish, thus I understood only "Van" and that the Turkish archeologist found a cat skull in some fortress in Van. As well as that they were going to do DNA analysis to find out if the sceleton belinged to Van cat. If you know Turkish, may you be helpful with the interpretation of what it means "to bite someone at ankle"? I cannot find the answer for years. Thank you in advance. --Zara-arush (talk) 16:17, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Answer to the stuff

Dear Sirs, it is rather unexpected for me that I am accused of bad conduct of English. I am not a native speaker, but I have always received only compliments for my good knowledge of English, including the British, American, and Australian English languages. I am a native speaker of Russian and Armenian, and I have rather good conduct of Polish. The knowledge of several European languages is very helpful for me to research various sources, as well as to meet and communicated with representatives of any ethnic group of the world. It is rather surprising for me that the article, devoted to the registered breed of pedigree cats, is turning into a political propaganda in favour of only one interested party that is doing its best to spoil the breed with the introduction of the cats of unknown genotype, the breeding of them only in one color (all-white) is prohibited according to European documents, supporting the rights of animals. For several times I offered the User to start discussion about the breed and its specific traits. I try to explain that the introduction of all-white cats will introduce into the breed of the Turkish Van cat the undesired genes (that accompany W- epistatic all-white color gene), which will introduce heart desease and other genetic disorders (deafness among them) that the pedigree Turkish Van cats are free. But the User is not interested in this sort of discussion. Instead of it the User tries to direct the discussion to the confrontation between the Turkish breeders and authorities and me. I do my best to prove that Van cats were originally van patterned and tie it with the history of the region and the ethnic groups that settled the region for several millenea (not several centuries) and who had their participation in the domestication of cats that is proved by the creation of the modern breeds of pedigree cats, such as Turkish Angora, Turkish Van, and Persian cats, as well as Anatoli. These breeds were created on the basis of the specific ancient breeds. The cats had been domesticated in the region 10,000 years ago by proto-Indo-European tribes, and this is not the fact of one century, and it lasted within the long period of time. Etc. And again the User does not want to discuss the breed, and demands from me to discuss, what is interesting for her. The User does not know Turkish, Armenian and Kurdish, she (I guess of her name) is not interested in the history and culture of the nations, besides the sources, approved by the Turkish authorities. I am thankful for her excellent knowledge of English and she may be helpful to edit my poor English. As for me, I will not dare to edit some specific English article just after reading several popular texts about the topic that only a little Englander may be aware. Thank you in advance for your tolerance. --Zara-arush (talk) 19:42, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I am not acusing you of misconduct. I only asked on the noticeboard for help with someone who might speak your language. I can tell that you keep thinking I am not interested, or are disagreeing with you, but I can't work out from what you say why you don't understand what I mean by sources. I am trying to find someone from one of the projects who might speak a language that you speak, so that we can have a better conversation and not end up offending each other without meaning to.Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

As I had written already, my native languages are Russian (because it is the language of my tuition and writing) and Armenian (that I speak daily), as well as I know English (because I write in this language, and I study cat genetics, welfare, etc. mostly thanks to English sources). So, if you are going to discuss with me cat related themes, it would be preferable to do it in English (though it is poor, as you had written), because the differences between the terms that exist among English, Russian and Armenian will make it less fruitful. Moreover, I am not used to communicate indirectly. I was and stay a mediator for hundreds of people and usually my attempts to be helpful and solve people's problems are successful. By the way, once I was even named "a peacenik" in some forum. Love and Peace --Zara-arush (talk) 20:38, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Structure of the article

I repeat the above passage of the discussion, in case the addressee did not notice it:

If this article is about Turkish Van cat, any data, relating to cats naming by various nations may be added on equal positions, and as a reference, but not as the main part of the first sentence. I ask that the addition of word "cat" in Turkish "pisik" be removed from the first sentense, because it breaks the content of the first introductury sentense. Then, Van cat in Armenian is "Vana katu", in Turkish it is named "Van kedi/kedisi" (the first - kedi - is mostly used by Western cat fanciers, and kedisi corresponds to how the cat is naked in Turkish and to Turkish grammer. This information may be added as a reference and in brackets, if added here. Or it may be added somewhere below, where the Turkish understanding of Van cat is represented. --Zara-arush (talk) 16:27, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Once more I ask Elene to edit propely the first sentence:

"The Turkish Van, called pişik in its homeland[1], is a breed of cat native to the rugged mountains of the Lake Van region in Eastern Anatolia of modern Turkey".

I respect her work, and I gave her numerous explanations, why it does not correspond to the place and sense, as well as pisik is not the equivalent to Van cat in any sence. By the way, one may check the dictionary, and find out all the meanings of the word in modern Turkish. If she had in mind these meanings, then it is worse for our article. Thank you in advance.--Zara-arush (talk) 01:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)--Zara-arush (talk) 01:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)--Zara-arush (talk) 02:21, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi Zara-arush. The difficulty we are having with the first sentence I think. Wikipedia works on the basis of verifiability - I think this is the link to the same page in Turkish. I believe you are Armenian, so please don't consider my referring to Turkish Wikipedia is an insult. There is no Armenian Wikipedia, so this is the best language I can get which I think you may be able to read more fluently than english. Please, if this is the case, do read it.

So if I say in the article that the cat is called Vancat, Van Kedi, Van Katu or pişik in it's native land, I need to show by reference to a source (not my opinion, or my knowledge of the language) that this word is used for the cat in its native land. I have a Turkish government source that says the cat is called pişik. Wikipedia considers most government sources of this kind - putting out information for tourists - to be fairly reliable. If you want me to take it out, you will have to find a source (not your opinion) that says that cats in the Van region are never called by this Turkish word. No editor will do it just because you say so, and that is the only reference you have offered me.Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:35, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

In fact, TourArmenia (source added to article) says that the Turks call the cats pisik, and makes a joke about them using an Armenian word for what they insist is a Turkish cat.Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:49, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Elen of the Roads! I hope you had a nice sleep and are full of tenacity to support your point of view. As I had written already, it is too hot in Yerevan, and the only cooling object that I may see before my eyes in day time are the twin summits of the sacred Mount of Ararat. By the way, do know anything about the symbolism of twin mountains? Do you have any mountain with twin summits in England? Though there are lots of sources in the Web, but my poor English makes it difficult to find out this data in UK Internet. By the way, there is Armenian Wikipedia, and I promise you to finish the work on the article about Turkish Van cat in several months, because though it is rather hot in Armenia in summers, like it is in anywhere in Armenian Highlands, I have to meet my obligations before my customers, and spend time working. I hope you will not delete all the content that does not coinside with your vision of Van Kedisi in the article about the Turkish Van cat, as you did today, while I was sleeping and working. As you might notice, I did not change your bright editing of the first sentence, because I am not interested in going on with this battle of editing. I always do all that I may to gain friends both for myself and for my beloved copper-eyed chestnut-red van patterned Turkish Van cats! If you have any hesitation you may contact me via e-mail before making new edits, and I am sure you will find out how to do it. So, Good-night and sweet dreams ! --Zara-arush (talk) 20:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I think you have a nicer view than I do then. I do not believe we have any mountains with twin peaks, although we do have mountains with interesting stories. Is there an Armenian Wikipedia? I am glad - I think it is a good resource in all languages. I hope I can find sources for some of what you say, so it can stay in, but the source must directly relate. I took out the story about God making the mice on the Ark because it doesn't seem to be about Van cats in particular, just about cats. Also, your reference in support of the "temple to the heathen goddess Arevhat" took me to a page about a 6th century AD christian church. Not helpful, and I can't tell whether you just picked the wrong URL or mistook what the text was saying. I have sources of my own about Arevhat - I collect folklore and stories of ancient gods and goddesses. Did you know she was a Sun goddess - I suppose you did. There is a lovely source on Armenian legend here , but sadly nothing about the cats of van. I shall continue looking.Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:11, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear Elen of the Roads, it looks like you had a good sleep and made a good cutting job with new vigor. I do not understand, why you did not like so much the other legend, explaining, why Allakh (and I am sure Creator is do unique, and only people of different languages, including native English speakers, give the All-Mighty Creator different names. Anyhow, where is the logic in what remained of the original text, written by me? Though my English is too poor, if compared with yours, I do not think that I lack logic at such an extent that I could have written such a clumsy thing. I guess, if you read, what you made of my writing, for several times, and compare, what I did with my unprofessional Pidgin English, you will be able to return all at its proper places, that the words and thoughts had in my original text. Otherwise, I would address to the administration, because your version crushed the main, what was in this passage. And it was not a religious belief, it just explained the meaning of the first legend, because I met various explanations, rather primitive, I should say. And I am sure, you did it intentionally, with the further cutting of the following sentenses. By the way, the original text had been copied by several people and exists at other pages. It means the people liked it. So, I am waiting for the application of your refined English, accompanied with hefty logic.--Zara-arush (talk) 01:03, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

It looks like that Elen is really in the land of dreems at this late time, and is not too eager to sparkle her gifts in Wikipedia. Anyhow, despite her being a native English speaker and notwithstanding her professional conduct of the language of Shakespeare, she could not notice that odd-eyedness has a correct medical term that is also used in veterinary medicine (instead of used here "dischromatopsy" - that, being improperly used (because it is not the scientific term for odd-eyeddness), also was written with spelling mistakes. If instead of the profound research of outdated materials, Elen had read one of the variants of my article that is placed in the Web for more than a year, she would learn the new English word and would be able to make the corresponding correction. This small detail only proves that her, Elen's (still wondering in the Roads to the Truth), interests in this article are beyond the cat fancy and true work on the article. --Zara-arush (talk) 03:20, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Nice set of references - I particularly like the one to the white cat painting, and also finding the Persian version of the lion sneezing out mice - good link back to the other story. Blame the Turkish government for using the wrong word about the eyes - yes, thank you, I have now learned a new word.

The English language could still do with a bit of a rewrite. I'm sure you're a marvellous storyteller, but this is an encyclopaedia, so the language has to be a bit dull. I win because I work in English local government and get a living writing reports, so I have the required level of dullness. But that will have to wait, I am sick with what the doctor tells me is NOT the mexican flu (thank god!) but I still have to go to bed and rest, and leave the computer downstairs.

In the meantime, if Meowy manages to get the naming controversy article deleted, I will ask the closing admin to userfy it so it can be merged in here. Hopefully though, the result of the discussion will be to merge here anyway. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:16, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear Helen, I wish you good health, and I do hope your doc is right that you just caught cold. Thus a good cup of hot tea with lemon and honey will be helpful every two hours. In case you have higher temperature, you will need 5-7 days inoculations of some antibiotic, because it may end with some complication. We all need you here and healthy, and full of energy. I do not understand what really made you think that I started editing to enter into the competition with anybody. The competition is the last thing that I will do in my life. If we met here at this page of discussion, we shall not treat each other like a rival party. If we think about the competition, we forget about the cats. I am very happy that now I know a representative of high authorities in Britain. As for me, I do not admit any carier thirst. I am just what I am. There are people, who dislike me, and there are people, who are thankful to me. If you earn your living by writing reports, I earn my living in several ways, though all types of my activity are link with my main profession of translator. At the same time I studied felinology - the discipline that studies domestic cats. So I have the diploma of feline breeder and have a registered cattery, and may act as a cat fancy club expert. I may be mistaken, but it looks like you are rather far from studying cat genetics and helth relating problems. Otherwise, you would think more about the deafness and heart disease of all-white cats and the cats that have such ancestors in itheir pedigrees. The science and veterinary medicine just starting to develop this field, but there are already definite results. I will not take much time from you, because your are not well yet. Anyhow, try to learn more about the ties and contradictions of the ethnicities (I do not use the word "nationalities" or "nations") living in the territory of the high mountains that are too far away from you. The people here are too long living together and nearby, and it is too complicated even for a report writer to understand, what we (the "stupid" people) understand, when we just look at each other even at a distance. If you realize, what I say, you will understand, what a Jewish, Persian, Armenian, Kurdish, Turkish, Yezid, Syrian, Arabic, etc legends and beliefs have in common and how they are attached. If I need an answer to any special question and do not find it in European and Asian history and philisophy, I try to find it in Indian, Tibettan, Chinese, etc. traditions. What I mean? It is the theme of discussion of another article. If I have time, we might "meet" somewhere else in Wikipedia. Good health! And use the period of recovery in reading and mediating about cats, mice, lions, those Armenians with their Christian history and pegan legends, Turks with their attempts to convince the world that they are not guilty, Persians that are Indo-Europeans that because of their geogrpahy became seperated, and of course, about Zara-Arush, who has no intention to compete with you, because our living conditions and fields of activity differ so much that it looks like you live on the Moon and I live on Orion. Bewst wishes.--Zara-arush (talk) 14:46, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear Helen, you wrote: "Blame the Turkish government for using the wrong word about the eyes - yes, thank you, I have now learned a new word". Thank you that you pointed out, who is the source of unprofessional data. I did not know that it was from this source, becuase it was circulating in numerous articles in the Web. I also made the same mistake several years ago, when te first edition of my article on TUVs had beem piblished (http://www.zooprice.ru/articles/detail.php?ID=99381). But I may not appreciate the Armenian source in Tour Armenia as well. Both articles had been written several years ago. Now the genomics made a good step forward, and we now know more abot the cats. Anyhow, the editor of Tour Armenia had little idea of cat fancy, otherwise they would not place all-white short-haired cat as an illustration of the article. It is a tour bureau ad, but not a story about a cat breed. They had used all the material they could find in the Web. I do not know, who inserted the link, but this person is also far from cat fancy, or this person did it intentionally to demonstrate the similar ignorance about the matter of the other party, as some Western car fancy authorities try to present the matter of Turkish Van cat. It is not the first time that I come across with the attempts to increase Armenian-Turkish confrontation on the basis of cat fancy and Van cat. These people are to blame first of all. Unfortunately, similar picture we have with the article placed at the official site of the Turkish Ministry of Culture, though they could be more professional, they have more means and financing than an Armenian tourist agency. I write unfortunately, because if they had experts in veterinary medicine, cat breeding, genetics, health and care, the cats would only gain, as well as all those, who are the fanciers of the breed. --Zara-arush (talk) 16:40, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Lie and Truth about Turkish Van Cat

OK, Hele made me to read these two articles. I offer to discuss them now in order we understand, what is wrong with them and we do not repeat the nonsense that it in them, and use what is true in them to improve our article in Wikipedia.

1) Turkish article: "People of Van call the cat "Pişik" ". It is not written in the source that they call only Van cats "Pişik", as Helen tried to insert in our article. Then, if we co-operate with Helen in her attraction with the sources, we would come to the idea that only people of Van name cat "Pişik", if we, like Helen, read only this article and do not have any dictionary or friend that may translate what this "Pişik" means. I say, that the search for a reliable source shall be combined with sound logic and check of this spirce as well, i.e. if we write about a breed of domestic animals, we shall have a good knowing what a breed of domestic animals is.--Zara-arush (talk) 17:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

2) "Van cats are described by the people of region as having long, white, silky fur, long body, tiger walking, fox like tail. Different colours of eyes (Diskrematopsi), intelligent, agile is clean, friendly, loves playing and faithful to its owner and therefore these characteristics make it a rare found cat." The Van cats are semilong-haired, and thus they do not have long fur. Though the short haired odd-eyed Anatoli type cats, are also considered in Turkey Van Kedisi. Their body is not just long, if it is this feature in cats is named angorism. It is bad in Persian cats and indicates that there was an outcross with Angora cat, even if the muzzle of the cat is of Persian. The same is with Van. Too long body is the indicator that the cat is the offspring of the oucross between a Van and an Angora. "Silki fur" - the Van cat coat is discribed as resembling cashmere or mink coat. If it is silky, it may also indicate the outcross with Angora cat. "Tiger walking" - Van cat walk is usually is discribed as lion walk, because of the way their legs are joint with the body, and how the torso (trunk) is "sitting" on the legs, and the way the cat puts it paws in walking or running. The wrong use of the medical term for odd-eyedness had been mentioned already by Helen.--Zara-arush (talk) 18:09, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

3) "The colour of newly born kittens is greyish". I hope Hellen with not use this statement as an official source, because the new born kittens of van-patterned TUVs have the same van-pattern, as their parents, and the color of the van marks are regulated by genetic laws. I guess it is a bad translation from Turkish. The eyes of new-born kittens are blue-grey. The hair color of new-born all-white and Siamese cats is white. The new-born babies of the breeds that do not have undercoat, look pink, because they have only separate hairs. The picture starts to change, when they dry and grow.

4) "Van cats have mating period in February-March-June. This period lasts for up to 10 days".

What is a mating period in a domestic breed? If the author ment that female cats are in heat that lasts up to 10 days, it may be more close to reality. I should say that the heat in female cats is regulated with the lenth of the light part of day, the longer is the day, the more frequantly are the heats. And the males are eager for mating irrespective of the season, and they are ready, when sense that there is a female cat in heat.

5) "In case of pregnancy during this period, no other mating period is seen in the same year". Again another strange statement. The cat may go in heat soon after the labour. If there be a tom-cat nearby, the may get pregnant.

6) "The belly starts to swallow from the first month and the cat never lets any one touch her belly". It may be explained only by the outdoor keeping of Van cats. They do not have the loving house and owner. They do not trust to the people, who come in and out of their cages in Van house, but do not adopt them as house pets. Any cat informs the owner fo what is wrong with it. They ask for help and care, if they trust the owner.

I will be thankful, if the TUV breeders correct me, in case find out mistakes. --Zara-arush (talk) 18:31, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Armenian article: 1) "The cat is a natural breed, no human selection or cross-breeding has been used to establish the breed. " Yes, the breed is described as natural by CFA and TICA. But there had been human selection in the early stages of cat domestication when "Van cat" appeared. And only the estimation of bilogical clock may throw light on the time. Yes, there had not been any outcross that is proved by the genetic research of CFA and TICA registered breeds. The distances at the phylogenetic tree of cat breeds show it. --Zara-arush (talk) 18:39, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I tell you what, you finish the article to your satisfaction, fill it with all the silly POV / OR garbage you want, then, when it is full to bursting, I can toss out all the garbage with the knowledge that there will not be more to deal with. That would be the easiest solution for all. Meanwhile, do not mistake my silence for approval. Meowy 01:15, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

"Meanwhile, do not mistake my silence for approval". I do not need anybody's approval. I am responsible for what I write and what I say. If you want to find someone , who needs you approval, try to find some under-age teenager. "I tell you what, you finish the article to your satisfaction, fill it with all the silly POV / OR garbage you want, then, when it is full to bursting, I can toss out all the garbage with the knowledge that there will not be more to deal with." OK, I will not add anything, untill you do your censorship.

And all you and our dear Ellen and another dear Yalens do here, is the prove that you have nothing to do with the anxiety about the breed and cat fancy. If we take into consideration that all this clamour about Van Kedisi being the same Turkish Van cat and attempts to introduce it into the joint breeding with Turkish Van cat are explained with the commerical interests of several breeders, inspired with the promises of the Turkish authorities, your position is well recognizable. You are not interested both in the cats, and the people. The entering into dispute with you is the nonsence. One, who has the ears to hear, will hear! You don't. Your reactions are predetermined. --Zara-arush (talk) 10:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Alas, it is your thoughts and theories that seem to be predetermined. It is you who are not interested in the cats, their past and their future. Is it because you are filled with race-hatred against Turks that you deny the historical reality of the Van cat and instead propagate the historical fabrications produced by the breeders of the "Turkish Van" while adding a few fabrications of your own? Meowy 01:36, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Please, do not invent, what does not exist. Why did you decide that I am "filled with race-hatred against Turks"? If it is possible to imagine an average representative of a nation, the Turks did their best to demonstrate themselves in the region within the last 2-3 centuries. But fortunately, not all the Turks are the same, and among the Turks there are clever and honest people. I know some, who are able to think objectively and are well-educated people. I do not "deny "the historical reality of the Van cat", yes there are feral cats in Van and other parts of modern Turkey, and there are feral cats in modern Armenia, as well as in modern Iran. These cats are very much related, because they have common ancestry. After 301, when the Armenians adopted Christianity, the cats, including Van cats, were not bred selectively within this territory. The cats of modern Ankara (former Ankira) had been mostly bred based on the all-white coat color. It was traditional since ancient times, the same tradition continued, when it had been a part of Byzantine Empire, and then later in Ottoman Turky. The same tradition was with Angora goats and rabits (if the latters' origin from Angora will be proved). There is not all-white in wild nature, thus all-white became the indicator of a domestic animal. But you know the negative influences of all-white genes on any biological organism. The same is with cats, though it is not lethal, as it is with hourses for example.

The piebold gene does not act so dramaticaly on an organism (cats, dogs, hourses, etc). It does not make narrow the capillaries of the embryo as much as W- gene. That is why the melanocytes reach several parts of embryo, including ears, eyes, internal organs, and skin as well. It indicates that the cells in these areas receive the nutrition for further development. That is why in general there are not copper-eyed deaf van patterned Turkish Vans. And I guess the same is with HCM and other inherited diseases. I hope the further genetic results will clear up the situation. The owners and breeders, as well as individual, who fancy the breed should put away their offenses and arrogance, and think more about the cats, their health and breeding matters. We should do all to unite the Turkish Van cat fanciers to preserve the breed in its healtiest state. This breed is very special. It has one of the oldest phenotypes, i.e the most healthy. I hope, it is not a discovery for you, and you have read the scientific papers about it. Thus I do, what I may to say that the introduction of the phenotypes that are produced by more advanced artificial selection will crush this genetic reserve that time later will be used to cure health problems of other breeds that will be subjected to further artificial selection.

It is what I try to explain here. And, if this phenotype (red-and-white van patern) reflects the beliefs of the people of prehistoric times, when there were no Turks, Kurds, Armenians, Jews, etc as we understand the concepts of nations and nationalities, why we shall "cick them out" of our article, like you preserved with great sympathy the story on cicking out the van patterned Van cat of Noah's Ark?

It is not the first time, when any offer to discuss here the matters, relating to the differences in all-white and van-patterned phenotypes, are put aside in silence, and the attempts to subject me to the psychological attack come in operation. Best wishes to all, who are clever enough to learn all their life long. Any communication gives us chance for further development.--Zara-arush (talk) 14:43, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Again on the legends about the marks of Van cat

I read the Kurdish article about Van cat and added the Kurdish name for Van cat. And it looks like the the legend of "Allakh" finger print may be Kurdish. In this case the resistance to admit van-patterned cats becomes more explainable. Anyhow, we shall forget, that the Kurds, who started to live in Armneian houses in Van province, were mostly nomadic, for this reason they did not have cats. At the same time they were more associated with the Armenians and in general they knew the people, whose houses they occupied. Thus, they learnt from them the legends and permitted the cats (bearing the Creator's "blessing marks") remain in the houses. And again, please remeber, we discuss here an endangered unique breed of cats, not politics, and, please, put aside your political ambitions. --Zara-arush (talk) 12:28, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

@Zara-arush, you made a good point. I was not aware of Paruyr Sevak (1924-1971) mentioning the Van cat in his poem. And what poem! :-) What about a cultural section. Or Van cat in literature? Apocolocynthosis (talk) 06:53, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Please Archive

Please, rather than just blanking old discussions, archive them. I don't know who blanked the whole history of this page and I don't feel like spending the time to find out, but in the future, add old discussions to the archive. pschemp | talk 15:21, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Its very dissapointing

To come back and find that all that has happened in a year is arguing and nationalistic posturing by people pushing the same political agenda as literally years ago. This article is about the recognized breed, not the wild cats of Van, and it always has been. I see lots of arguments, and very few references to back them up. It has always been recognized in this article, that what people in Turkey consider Van cats is not exactly what the recognized breed is. However, the breed did start with patterned cats picked up off the streets of Van, so Van is a part of their history. Its sad to see that all people can do here is fight and push POV. The Vankedesi article exists because the Vankedesi (all white variation) is also a recognized, but separate breed. It is most like the wild cats in Turkey, and therefore, the information pertaining to them should remain there. The two color patterns are not allowed to interbreed in the breed registers, thus they are genetically separate, and this is why there were two articles in the first place. Please read the archived request for comment especially to see that the community has already come to consensus on this issue. Just because the dissenter stuck around to keep arguing and some other nationalistic commenters have shown up does not mean that there is a legitimate reason to disregard that consensus.

Thank you for your comments. All my offers to write in the article (and discuss here) about the breeding, genetics, health of the breed were passed by, and all the energy was aimed on shutting me up, just because I dared to enter here a legend that supports the existance of van-patterned cats, and that there had been a population of feral van-patterned cats that "bred true".--Zara-arush (talk) 00:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

This is why - if it is possible to avoid excessive nationalism - this article ought to be about the whole of the cat (as it were), not just about the modern show breed. The original pair of cats brought to the west self evidently bred true, which I can assert here and now is not true for two randomly splotched cats you might pick off the streets of Bradford. Also, did anyone ever look at that set of links to people's holiday snaps that I put up above. Several of the 'white' Van cats in the pictures plainly had patches of red fur. As a purely dispassionate observer, t appears to me that the current population of Van tend to describe cats which are nearly all white as "white". As a dispassionate observer who happens to have a thirty year old reference book on the subject, I note that when Angora cats were first reintroduced to the west, only the white ones were sent, and the US fancy for a long time thought Angoras only came in white. AS we now know, this is not true. What is true is that the locals from the Ankara area particularly prize all-white cats. As a final point, one of the photographs I picked up was from a US Van breeder, who had received a Van for breeding purposes from the Van area. This cat had Van pattern, but was a black and white cat.

Let us therefore accept that the main thing which marks out the Van cat is not its colour but the fact that it likes to take a swim. My 30 yo source says that this, not coat colour, was the defining feature of the Van cat in the 1950s - the cat swims, and it has a fur structure that makes it less bedraggled after a dip than your average moggie. Zara's notes about breed genetics are very relevant here - although they should not be used to push a nationalist POV.Elen of the Roads (talk) 07:42, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very-very much (as a non-native speaker, I may use this repetion so much liked by 3rd world illeterate people) for naming me nationalist and again thank you very-very much for your brilliant editing. I would not like to spare time once more to explain you and the interested users, why I consider your editing braking the logic of the legends narration, so I repeat here my reply to our dear native speaker Elen that I had written at my talk page:

"Dear Elen! I am very proud that the native English speaker and a published writer in English edits my clumsy writing. But I am afraid that after your last edits the three paragraphs are not joined in one narration. They look like a mix of three different parts. The thread of the story is cut. There is no logic that may join them in a unque tale. It is the main reason that I undid your previous editings. It is a stylistic error also. Don't you feel it?

Then, you wanted very much a proving source. I found the data of the Persion historian book. But the legend is also told in Rabbic literature. For example, I read about it first as a Jewish legend, narrated for children by a Jewish writer. The fact that it was mentioned by several nations and the existance of several proverbs are the evidence in favor of the existance of van-patterned cats in very-very (I guess all non-native speakers like this repetition) ancient times. Thus, when you delete all the legends and proverbs you make it a secondary prove. You should realize that, when the Christianity had been adopted in Armenia, all the temples (besides one in Garni) were ruined, and all pagan cults, literature and books were prohibited in Armenia. For this reason to prove the fact of the existance of van-patterned cats in Lake Van may be proved only by the genetic research (and it proved it) and folk legends. I wrote that the cats with the marks of blessing were bred in the temples of Astghik. But there was also another cult that had close relation to it. It was the warship of Astghik's beloved - another deity, named Vahagn, who was warshiped as a deity of fire or sun, depending of time period). The van pattern may be also interpreted as the blessing of the rising sun. The color of Lake Van under the rays of the rising/setting sun is named in Armenian "tsirani". Too long for a simple text of any encyclopedia. The ancient people were not so primitive as they are usually described. The same non-native speakers of English. I hope you will recover yourself, what you spoiled in the three paragraphs. If you really want to make the text about the legends sound well in English, please edit the use of words or spelling and similar mistakes, in case you find any. And just for your knowledge, I write in Russian, and also I have an English language feature article, published in a US newspaper. Not much, but I just started to write. Otherwise I would not be so brave and edit anything in English Wikipedia. Love and Peace, --Zara-arush (talk) 17:30, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I hope that there are other native speakers of English here, who may explain our very-very dear Elen that her editing does not prove that she has the feeling of good style, though she is a well-known writer in English, having a published book about the breed. And it makes me more curious, how she managed to write about the breed, if she does think that the breed originated only of a pair of van-patterned cats that bred true. As well as I can not imagine how she managed to write about cats, if she has no idea about the mechanism of the origination of solid white color in cats, as well as what makes the breed so special. Anyhow her insistance with her illogical corrections may be considered a war of edits. I would not be so much anxious about her persistence, if she simultaneously added more info of Van cat health, welfare, genetics, even the information about the data of show achievements. But besides her attempts to correct, what I write here, she added nothing to the main article. It look likes she has nothing new to tell about the breed. --Zara-arush (talk) 18:03, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I'm a military historian :) I didn't write the cat book, I just happen to own it. It's the narrative that was the problem in that section - it wasn't supposed to be telling a complete story, it was supposed to be making points about the cat. I'm sure you are a better storyteller than I, but storytelling isn't appropriate in the article.

You are the one who seems to have all the information, although I will keep asking you to CITE your REFERENCES, and NOT give me reams of text about the fate of the Armenians. If I thought you were getting this stuff from your grandma, I would say it is original research and is likely to be deleted by another editor. However, I don't want to insult your evident intelligence. I don't believe you are getting this from your grandma. I believe you perfectly well understand references and citation, so I'm just going to say - please provide the references that you must have for the information you are adding.Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:05, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Let us discuss peculiarities of van pattern and solid white in Vans

To stop the politic and apolitic talks here I offer and added a special chapter about the van pattern and if you want another one about the solid white color in TUVs. I hope you will not object, and have inserted a part of the variant of my article, published earlier.--Zara-arush (talk) 20:33, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I like it, but do you think it's perhaps a bit overpowering. I wonder if it would shorten, but don't want to meddle with your text. Also, it could do with a few inline citations. I notice you took out the para about solid white cats - I thought that was useful as well--Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

OK, Elen. It is about the first time that you did not enter into controversy with me. I hope it may be a good start for cooperation. Now I would like to make clear one thing. Why do you enphasize so much that the breed had originated from 1 pair of cats? There are records of how many cats had been imported by L. Lushington, when, and there are her own memories published in several places, including the official web site of her original club and association. Have you read it? I am afraid, you do not, because in case you know about it, you would not insist, because again, it is clumsy. What are the sources you use to make these statements? You like to demand the sources from me, but you are not always submiting the sources yourself. The only source you are used to mention, is the reference book, published 30 years ago, that none seems is familiar, besides you, to confirm that this source is worth to mention at all. Love and Peace, --Zara-arush (talk) 15:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

New deletions

I ask the users and administrators not to change the edition about the names of Van cat in the languages present in the region. If the name of Van cat in Kurdish and Armenian will be again excluded, I will ask to name it a fact of vandalism.--Zara-arush (talk) 21:50, 8 September 2009 (UTC) I have undone the deletion of the references to Armenian Highland, the name of the Van cat (natural breed) in Armenian and Kurdish, and similar data. In case there will be new attempts I will apply to the administration.--Zara-arush (talk) 18:07, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I recovered the sentnce on Armenian Highlands, because it explains the relation of the breed origin. It is the history, and the unregistered user persists in "whitening" what he or she does not like in the world history.--Zara-arush (talk) 00:33, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I've changed the title of the article here to "New deletions" as it fits more. Anyhow: Zarah, what say you we lock this article? I say so (except, I forgot the control of how to do so...). Because, like it or not, while this page has pretensions about being about a cat breed, it's just as much about whether its name should be "Turkish" or not. And on top of that, there seem to be a number of users who seem determined to make this page into Turkey's government's propaganda outlet by deleting all the non-Turkish names of the cat. I don't have time to check this page every day to revert, so why don't you lock it? --Yalens (talk) 22:16, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Start class - it seems a bit more than that

I came across this by chance, and see it is rated as 'start class'. It seems better than that to me. I've seen much poorer articles with higher ratings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drkirkby (talk • contribs) 12:21, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Please, check the link

Hi, please check the link to

Official website of the Republic of Turkey Ministry of Culture & Tourism. Republic of Turkey Ministry of Culture and Tourism. pp. 2005. http://www.kultur.gov.tr/EN/BelgeGoster.aspx?17A16AE30572D313E603BF9486D4371DDA30FFB887DE099B.

I could not find the article there. Thanks, --Zara-arush (talk) 02:28, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Van Region: Eastern Anatolia, Western Armenia, Northern Kurdistan - are they compatible or not?

Resolved

 – No one has refuted this well-done research, nor its pointing out of POV pushing, in over a year and half, as of Dec. 2011.

Basically, we seem to be having problems here. Here is the dilemma

Turkish, pro-Turkish, pro-let's-make-stateless-people-shut-up, anti-Armenian/Kurd, and anti-politics people seem to want to insist that references to the Van lake region being historically part of Western Armenia, and part of Northern ethnic Kurdistan, be deleted.

Conversely, Armenian, Kurdish, pro-Armenian/Kurdish, pro-let's-make-reference-to-history, pro-let's-make-reference-to-the-fact-that-political-borders-are-not-cultural-borders, and other people, want the references there.

Let me state the facts, and some opinions:

1) The Van lake region as part of historic Western Armenia: specifically the area north of hte lake but also the region in general to a lesser extent, as a strong Armenian heritage. It was usually part of Armenian states when the existed, and it wasn't even on the periphery. Armenian place names, before Turkey changed many in the 1900s, were overwhelmingly dominant North of the lake, and very common around it.

2) Historical and modern Kurdish presence: For at least a millenia, Van, specific the area South of the lake, as well as East and West (but not as much so) were ethnically Kurdish in addition to being Armenian. The Ottomon census reveals this mixing around the lake, with the lake itself being the major north-south boundary between the two peoples' domains.

3) The exact demographics of Van in the late Ottomon Era: copied from the city's page:

The demographics of Ottoman Van are a debated and contentious point as they relate directly to claims of ownership by either side prior to the outbreak of World War I. Based on the official 1914 Ottoman Census the population of Van province consisted of 179,422 Muslims and 67,797 Armenians. The Ottoman Census figures include only male citizens, excluding women and children. According to a more recent research, the corrected estimates for Van province (including women and children) was; 313,000 Muslims, 130,000 Armenians, and 65,000 others, including Syriac Christians and Nestorians. The demographics of Van are a greatly debated point given the changing of provincial borders. For example, in 1875 the province was divided and Van and Hakkari separated, only to be rejoined in 1888 which drastically changed the make up of any census, and some writers argue that this merging was done to keep the Armenians from forming a majority. In 1862 it was estimated that in Van there were 90,100 Christians (including Nestorians) and 95,100 Muslims. The French Consul in Van reported that in Van and Bitlis 51.46% were Kurds, 32.70 were Armenians and 5.53% were Turks. On the other hand, the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinope estimated 185 000 Armenians in Van, 18000 Assyrian Jacobites, 72 000 Kurds, 47 000 Turks, 25 000 Yezidis and 3 000 Gypsis. Both sides have been accused of overcounting the numbers at the time given the revival of the Armenian Question and population statistics became important during the Berlin Conference.

4) Conclusion from the Demographics: Both sides seem to disagree onwhether Kurds or Armenians were the majority. Personally, I'm taking the 51.46% Kurdish, 32.7% Armenian figure for the Van and Bitlis provinces as by far the most authoritative one, as it was done by neither Armenian religious/nationalist organizations or imperial censuses, but rather, French investigators, a third party, and one that is known to be much more thorough with their work than the notably inefficient and corrupt Ottomon authorities. But this is beside the point: the region has a dual Armenian and Kurdish heritage. Armenians were more urban, and Kurds more rural, yes. But in general, this is the line.

5) Nativeness of Armenians to the Van Region- Why the Urartians are not an argument for removing reference to the Armenians (and by extension, Kurds): Van is Armenian for village or settlement. It is my belief, as is the belief of many scholars, that this is not one of the majority of Indo-European words in Armenian, but rather, from the substratum in the language- Urartian/Nakh. The root is the same root that produced the Chechen cognate I know- bun- which means shelter, lair or home (I should note here- bun actually refers, usually, to a single building, mainly a cabin or similar thing, or at least that's how I've heard it used). This root (probably *vun in Urartian pronounciation, as in Chechen v may have been lost for awhile) may also be present in many other places in Armenia- for example, Yerevan, which was once called Eribuni/Erivuni, or, notoriously, Nakhechivan/Naxcivan. There are many Anatolian Turks who would say that this is further proof of why we should not include it, that the previous Urartian (Nakh) people would have to then be mentioned and we'd end up mentioning every ethnic group within a 1000 mile vicinity. However, I disagree. To keep things short, it is necessary to note that while the Armenians are a primarily Indo-European people, they are also the partial descendents of the Urartians. This is suggested by the large amount of Urartian influence in the Armenian language- which is perhaps greater even then the Gaulish substratum in French and comparable to the Dacian substratum in Romanian (both groups are thought to be descended from their non-Latin predecessors). It is also suggested by Armenian genetics: let us look at their genetics after removing all the R-type Y-haplogroups from the pool. The resulting ratios in the pool start to closely resemble those of peoples in Eastern Georgia as well as among Chechens and Ingush - they have large concentrations of Y-haplogroup J2,Y-haplogroup F and Y-haplogroup G, with a smaller concentration of Y-haplogroup I and Y-haplogroup K (although, admittedly, the Chechen and Ingush samples in that one study were a little small, but they still give the general impression). People in Eastern Georgia, specifically Kakhetia and the Tush and Khevsur regions, the Bats, and the Ingush and Chechens in the North Caucasus are specifically the groups that have Nakh (by implacation, closely related to Urartians and Hurrians) roots (for example, see Amjad Jaimoukha's book on Chechens, specifically the chapter with regard to Urartu, for further info).

Hence, I conclude that the area is simultaneously Western Armenia, Northern Kurdistan and Eastern Turkey for the following regions.

WESTERN HISTORIC ARMENIA: As defined by HISTORIC Armenian lands (i.e. before the late 19th century).

NORTHERN ETHNIC KURDISTAN: Defined historically, ethnically and demographically.

EASTERN POLITICAL TURKEY: By the UN-recognized political boundary.

As for Anatolia, that geographic term is vague, I suggest we dodge it when discussing Van. But really, I don't see why there should be any conflict between using the three above terms simultaneously, as they are not incompatible.--Yalens (talk) 23:43, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

References