Talk:Ultra (cryptography)/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Churchill, King George VI, and "It was thanks to Ultra that we won the war"

In case you've wondered whether Churchill really said to King George VI, "It was thanks to Ultra that we won the war" – in particular, would the King even have been aware of the 'Ultra' codename? – with the assistance of some others I did some digging into this. The statement is weakly sourced in its several occurrences on WP, usually to an unlinked "Cited in the Imperial War Museum's 2003 exhibit 'Secret War'" (the only thing I find there now is this page which does not suggest that) and sometimes to this History Channel page.

However I believe the root source for this formulation is Anthony Cave Brown's 1987 book "C": The Secret Life of Sir Stewart Graham Menzies, where on page 671 he wrote:

... at the end of the war. Churchill told King George VI in Menzies's presence that "it was thanks to Ultra that we won the war."[1]

As it happens Anthony Cave Brown didn't have the greatest reputation for accuracy – see for example this Guardian obit from 2006. In this case, he footnoted this statement (footnote found on page 812) to Gustave Bertrand's Enigma ou la plus grande énigme de la guerre 1939–1945, page 256, published in France in 1973 (and the first book to really break the secrecy around Ultra, a year before Winterbotham's).

The statement in the Bertrand book comes at the end of a short passage asserting the importance of Enigma-derived intelligence for the Allied victory. The text there is:

Sans parler de cette entrevue historique, la guerre finie, où Sir Winston Churchill, présentant à S.M. George VI le Chef de l'I.S., prononça ces paroles; qui m'ont été rapportées par le général Menziès lui-même:

« C'est grâce à l'Arme Secrète du général Menziès, mise en œuvre sur tous les Fronts, que nous avons gagné la Guerre! »

This can be translated to something like this:

Not to mention this historic meeting, after the war, in which Sir Winston Churchill, presenting to H.M. George VI the Chief of the I.S., stated these words; that were reported to me by General Menzies himself: "It is thanks to the secret weapon of General Menzies, put into use on all the fronts, that we won the war!"

So it's clear that Churchill didn't use the phrase 'Ultra' and that Anthony Cave Brown didn't either accurately or fully replicate the quote. I have now done so in this article, putting some context before it to briefly explain who Menzies was.

But aside from that, to write as a straightforward fact that Churchill said this, is a bit risky. This is not something that was written on a document that has now been declassified, or something where there was a disinterested witness to the conversation who subsequently described it, or even something where we have the dates of the conversation or its later relating. There are a lot of potentially weak links in this chain: Churchill could have been overenthusiastic in the moment, or exaggerated the importance a bit to flatter Menzies; Menzies could have exaggerated the conversation, or even fabricated it; Menzies could have misremembered it when relating the encounter to Bertrand, or could have exaggerated it to play up the importance of Ultra to Bertrand so that Bertrand would feel his contribution to breaking Enigma had been important; Bertrand could have exaggerated it or misremembered it by the time he was writing his book; or things could be lost in translation.

Or, of course, it could very well be that Churchill said it and meant it and that it was accurately rendered by both Menzies and Bertrand. But given the length and nature of this chain, I think it's better for this article to say "Winston Churchill was reported to have told King George VI ..." rather than the previous "Winston Churchill told King George VI ...". Wasted Time R (talk) 02:25, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

As the de jure head of the British government, the King (and by extension Queen Elizabeth), knew everything, because as a constitutional monarch, he needed to know to be able to advise, to encourage and to warn. He had access to every paper, every document, no matter how classified, every person in the Realm if they wanted. Queen Elizabeth II is likely the best informed person in history, because she has access to every piece of paper of every government she is the head of; no one else has access to such sources. 98.10.165.90 (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

According to his biographer Philip Ziegler, George VI was indeed cleared for Ultra, so there wasn't much Winston could tell him about it that he didn't already know. He saw all the same briefing papers that Winston did. Khamba Tendal (talk) 13:15, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Does Ziegler give any more info about George VI's access to Ultra? Because it does not necessarily follow from "he was cleared for Ultra" that he "saw all the same briefing papers". It may be (I don't know -- would welcome clarification) that he was cleared, so that the PM could bring it up in conversation with him, but that he may not have been automatically on the circulation list for all the decrypts and intel summaries. Certainly the descriptions I can recall for who got circulated Ultra (no. 10, service intel chiefs, etc) did not include the Palace, and it would seem a little odd to me if they did. Constitutional monarch might mean he is allowed to see anything, not necessarily that he is sent everything. FrankP (talk) 17:44, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

There'd be no reason for KG6 to be on the distribution list; he might be cleared for it, but he had no need for it. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 21:41, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

The King would almost-certainly not have been on any Ultra distribution lists, the information, much of it mundane, likely being of no interest, nor use to him. He would however have known of Ultra's existence, for the simple reason that Churchill would have personally told him of it, Churchill having reason to suppose that of all people The King was able to be trusted, and was not likely to tell anyone else. The King had served in both the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force so he knew how to keep official secrets anyway.

IIRC, Churchill had regular meetings with the King simply to keep him (The King) informed of events, as indeed does the current Prime Minister with the present Queen.

BTW, what 98.10.165.90 states above is correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.53.138 (talk) 09:25, 31 March 2018 (UTC)