Talk:Väkipuukko

Article contains such sentence: Since metallurgy in the Pre-Christian Finland was primitive, and iron and steel rare, swords were extremely rare and more status symbols of a chieftain than real weapons of war, and väkipuukko was the common infantryman's sidearm, main arms being either spears or bows. This is totally false. Swords are very usual findings in Finnish pre-christian graves, a lot more usual than väkipuukkos. And who told you that Finnish metallurgy was primitive? Primitive compared to what area? At least it was not more primitive than metallurgy in neighbouring areas, in which it was on quite a high level. There was also trade between middle Europe and Finland, and lots of swords were bought, so the level of metallurgy is not so important here. Similarly neighbouring scandinavians also bought most of their swords from middle Europe. Tuohirulla puhu 20:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Article contained false information that swords become common only at middle ages. Such a claim shows great ignorance about archeological findings of Finland. A lots of pre-chistian swords have been found, a sword is a very usual grave-finding. I removed all the false information. Tuohirulla puhu 20:34, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking as a metallurgical engineer, the original text was correct. Iron and steel were very rare in the Pre-Christian Finland, and indeed swords were more status symbols not unlike fancy cars today. The usual means of warfare in Iron Age Finland was fighting in open order, employing terrain and skirmishing, and in such warfare bows and spears are much more practical than swords. Swords and polearms suitable for slashing became common in Finland only when iron became a commodity instead of luxury in Finland, and when the discipline and close order fighting was introduced. It must be rememberred that sword is always only a sidearm, never the primary weapon. Most pre-Christian grave findings have indeed been those of chieftains or otherwise affluent people. Swords are commonplace in the chieftains' graves, but not in those of the commoners.

Metallurgy in pre-Christian Finland was primitive compared to the Norse, Rhineland and Britain - and light years behind that of India, China and Islamic world. The usual means of producing iron was simple bloomery, which could not produce high enough temperatures to smelt the iron. The blast furnace was invented in Sweden in the 12th century. Iron utensils became really commonplace only in the 13th. 62.237.141.27 17:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Most pre-Christian grave findings have indeed been those of chieftains or otherwise affluent people". Who says so? "Since cremation was the Pre-Christian norm, very lfew of those findings are those of the commoners." What does that mean? Iron finds are very common in cremation deposits. Anyway, Finland has about 1000 Iron Age sword finds, so it is silly to claim that these were extremely rare - relatively rare they may have been. "Iron utensils became really commonplace only in the 13th." What does "really commonplace" mean? At least practically every decently excavated Iron Age settlement site in SW Finland produces evidence of iron utensils.--217.112.249.156 13:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. You can not ignore the number of pre christian swords in Finland in this kind of article. If you call swords extremely rare compared to väkipuukkos, then there must be thousands and thousands väkipuukko findings, but i very much doubt that. Tuohirulla puhu 22:16, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sources presented in article are from years 1938 and 1943, so they are badly outdated. After that time the arcaeology of Finland has developed a lot. This propably explains this misinformed claim about extreme rarity of swords.

Actually, they are not outdated but standard texts, but they do not make any claims of the "extreme rarity" of swords.--130.234.75.229 15:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Väkipuukko is just another name for scramasax

Actually, väkipuukko is just another name for scramasax, so this is useless article. This is just a duplicate of scramasax-article with another name. We dont have article to miekka either, which is Finnish name for sword, so why should we have article for Finnish name of scramasax? Also the information in this article is almost totally crap, so this should just be deleted. Tuohirulla puhu 22:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree--130.234.75.229 15:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]