Talk:Vassula Rydén/Archive 3

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Archive 3

Cardinal reviews Vassula's book

Cardinal Prospero Grech, who gave a meditation to the Cardinals who assembled in the Vatican to elect Pope Francis last year has reviewed a recently published book by Vassula. The review has appeared in the January 2014 edition of the well respected magazine 'Inside the Vatican'. A copy of the article is on the magazine website at https://insidethevatican.com/tag/vassulla-ryden

The Cardinal's review is significant as it was he who acted as an intermediary between the Vatican and Vassula in its investigation of her writings. His review also discusses the main writings of Vassula. Unfortunately, several Wikipedia editors removed references to that investigation (details of which can be found at http://www.cdf-tlig.org) from the Vassula Wikipedia page. I am assuming that those editors will also block the above information but in case I am misjudging them I am mentioning the matter here on the talk page.Sasanack (talk) 13:46, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Unless I'm missing something, the anonymous (?) insidethevatican.com article basically reiterates what our WP article already says: the CDF investigated her and Cardinal Levada confirmed that the original Notification was still in force. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:29, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

The WP page refers at length to the Notifications of 1995 and 1996 but says nothing about the investigation instigated by Cardinal Ratzinger in 2001. The investigation, which involved Cardinal Grech and to which he refers in his review, was completed in 2004 with a letter from Cardinal Ratzinger and a meeting between himself and Vassula in his office (with a widely publicised photo). The WP page chooses to block all this information.

The letter of Cardinal Levada in 2007 had nothing to do with the above investigation.

For the doubters, the review of Vassula's book (Heaven is Real but so is Hell) published in the Inside the Vatican magazine includes Cardinal Grech's authorship - see http://www.tlig.net/InsidetheVatican.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasanack (talk • contribs) 21:25, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Your link directly contradicts what you have said, IRWolfie- (talk) 21:36, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Could you be a little more specific? Sasanack (talk) 21:44, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

It is possible that I mis-inferred what you meant by "the above investigation". We have sources for before and after your reported 2001 meeting. 2001 has no apparent significance. Even your cardinal link above does not mention it. IRWolfie- (talk) 21:55, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

The Cardinal states: "Subsequent to a request by Vassula, the CDF decided to enter into dialogue with her and formulated some questions regarding her and her messages. I personally wrote to her in the name of the CDF. Her response was precise and sincere, so it was thought that the CDF was satisfied. The then-Prefect of the CDF, Cardinal Ratzinger, gave her an audience, and the correspondence was interpreted as permission to leave it to the bishops to decide."

The dialogue to which the Cardinal refers (and with which he was personally involved) began in 2001 and the meeting between Cardinal Ratzinger and Vassula to which he refers was in 2004.Sasanack (talk) 22:07, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

I thought you said investigation, now a dialogue. She contacted them, they replied back. Calling that "an investigation" seems to be stretching it. Why are you mentioning it? It had no long term significant as evident from the 2007 statement, IRWolfie- (talk) 22:30, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Let's not quibble about 'investigation' or 'dialogue'. The dialogue took place and Cardinal Ratzinger's invitation to Vassula to his office at the end of the dialogue speaks for itself. It might not impress you, IRWolfie, but with respect, Wikipedia is meant to be a source of information, not a court of law. The dialogue of 2001/2004 has been the only dialogue between Vassula and the Vatican and the apparent determination of some to block information about it from the WP Vassula page is, I think, quite a significant indication of its importance. Sasanack (talk) 23:00, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Alternately, Ryden's TLIG organization are anxious to portray the CDF's scrutiny of Ryden as indicating some kind of relationship and having a huge importance that it doesn't actually have. - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:28, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Well, I'm happy to see a recognition there are two sides to this matter. Should not WP include positive interpretations of the events as well as the negative? The anti-Vassula editors appear to have a total stranglehold on the page at the moment. Incidentally, I don't know who wrote the above comment which is unsigned. How can an unsigned entry be made on WP? Was it made by a WP employee or administrator?? Sasanack (talk) 11:16, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, must have missed a tilde on the previous sig. Just plain old human error. - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:28, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

As IRWolfie pointed out, Ryden/TLIG initiated an exchange of correspondence then later asked for and got an appointment to see a cardinal. (You may want to call that a "dialogue" that "speaks for itself" but you'd need some multiple reliable independent sources rather than a sympathetic review of her new book to back it up.) The upshot is that there was no change in the Vatican's stance on the subject, so it's not notable or significant. LuckyLouie (talk) 17:05, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

It is very difficult to respond to the above comment because it comes across to me as so unreasonable! First of all, I have not suggested that the dialogue of 2001/2004 changes the 'official' position of the Vatican regarding Vassula. The letter of Cardinal Levada from 2007 certainly is a negative one but it cannot change the significance of the ONLY dialogue that has taken place between Vassula and the Vatican. It is quite wrong to dismiss this very important investigation - and yes, it was an investigation as the questions asked of Vassula were on the matters which had concerned the Vatican from the beginning. As Cardinal Grech points out in his review, Vassula's responses were well received by Cardinal Ratzinger and it was because of that (and only that!) that he agreed to invite her formally to meet him and to be photographed happily at her side in his office. If you think that Cardinal Ratzinger would agree to that while having negative concerns about her then you have no understanding of Cardinal Ratzinger! The whole dialogue can be viewed at: http://www.vassula-cdf.org/clarificationsNU/index.html To block any reference to this crucial dialogue from the WP page because you view it as 'insignificant' is almost unbelievable. Sasanack (talk) 20:22, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Your personal appreciation of the importance of a photo-op with the Pope is warming, but it does not rise to significance for an encyclopedia article. The Pope is regularly photographed with those who are in conflict with him. It is not a signal of support. Binksternet (talk) 20:47, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Would you care to post a link to one photograph of Pope Benedict posing with a non-political figure with whom he was in conflict.Sasanack (talk) 20:54, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Would you care to bring reliable sources showing a significant viewpoint that we can share with our readers? Binksternet (talk) 21:00, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

They already have been but they have been rejected outright by yourself and others citing all sorts of inconsistent frivolous excuses. As mentioned by the RSN commentators, (read Fifelfoo's comment) "The treatment of Hvidt's work above, and on the article's talk page, is frankly appalling". I do not delude myself into thinking I can ever change your mind, I am simply making this statement for uninformed newcomers to this article's discussion page, lest they be misled that there are no credible sources to back up this event. Ryden's dialogue with the CDF has now even made it to the front page of insidethevatican.com. The occurrence of the CDF dialogue is further backed up by Niels Hvidt's WP:RSN approved Oxford University Press source, as mentioned in my link to this RSN discussion. Arkatakor (talk) 08:26, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Now, following the anti-editors removal from the main article of my properly referenced information on the Vatican's dialogue with Vassula, I have to leave it at that. There really seems to be nothing in the WP system able to correct a situation whereby a group of editors, determined to maintain a distorted WP page, can do so with so little effort. They just have to say of any insertion they don't like, "not significant" ! Sasanack (talk) 10:29, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Anti-editors? Sasanack, the editors who are commenting here spend 99% of their time editing other articles. Your edits are simply against policy and are an attempt to spin the interactions with the RC, IRWolfie- (talk) 11:02, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Ryden's dialogue of the CDF, a truth whom so many editors in here have adamantly fought to keep out of this article, regardless of even RSN approved sources, is now on the front page of the "Inside the Vatican". Arkatakor (talk) 07:01, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Can you stop spamming this link? Sasanack already provided this link at the start. Second Quantization (talk) 08:46, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

For your information, my post of 07:01, 14 March 2014 (UTC) was a link to the front page of insidethevatican.com, not the article itself. This further highlights its importance. Seems this is inconvenient for you for some reason. Arkatakor (talk) 08:59, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

It might be useful if I mention here that user IRWolfie who has been heavily involved in editing the Vassula page now calls himself Second Quantization. I wonder why he did that? Sasanack (talk) 13:48, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Grech's review of Ryden's new book says that the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches have both been "hostile" to Ryden. Grech says that he is "no expert in mystical phenomena" but nevertheless he tells his opinion about Ryden's messages, saying the origin of Ryden's messages is still unknown, but if they are not from an external spirit, if they are simply the meditations of one woman, then they are useful because they have brought many people closer to God. In that light, Grech is definitely not affirming the Vassula story which is, of course, that Ryden receives her messages from spirits such as God, Jesus, Mary and Daniel. Binksternet (talk) 16:15, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Grech also reaffirms the Church stance that 'the (CDF) published a "notification”, warning bishops, clergy and the faithful against certain aspects of her writings, as there were doubts about the authenticity of these revelations' and goes on to say in the same breath "Her response was precise and sincere, so it was thought that the CDF was satisfied." I believe this adds further importance in that Grechs comments come after Levada's of 2007 I propose something to the above effect be added to the chronology of events in the Roman Catholic Church's stance so that a complete account is given Webwidget (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• In an effort to reach some sort of compromise, I have added a use of this primary source that is consistent with the secondary sources, which of course don't mention this claimed meeting, Second Quantization (talk) 13:56, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

"He had thought the CDF was satisfied", this is not what the article says, it reads "so it was thought that the CDF was satisfied" also the meeting is not claimed, it is stated as matter of fact "he then-Prefect of the CDF, Cardinal Ratzinger, gave her an audience, and the correspondence was interpreted as permission to leave it to the bishops to decide." Webwidget (talk) 16:50, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

The attempt at compromise is laudable, but since Grech doesn't represent the CDF (he only represents his opinion as a staunch Ryden supporter) the added material is better situated in the "Supporters" section. And one person's interpretations of the intentions of an entire committee can't be related as fact. - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:22, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

I think it breaks the specific pieces related to CDF notifications out of sequence, so it breaks the flow of text. Second Quantization (talk) 20:04, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

It is very difficult to remain calm when dealing with ignorant comments like the above ...

1. Prospero Grech, Augustinian professor-emeritus of several Roman universities and long-serving consultor to the Vatican's doctrinal office. http://archive.thetablet.co.uk/article/14th-january-2012/4/the-churchs-new-princes

2. Cardinal Grech knew almost nothing about Vassula until he was given the task of communicating with her on behalf of the CDF in 2002. He is not a 'staunch supporter' of Vassula. He was simply asked to review her book and spoke honestly about what he knew. Sasanack (talk) 19:42, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

In this series of edits, SQ writes the following new text:

Cardinal Prosper Grech said he communicated to Ryden in the name of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the faith in some period after 1997. He had thought the CDF was satisfied, but...

I agree with the formulation "he had thought the CDF was satisfied" because it is Grech saying "so it was thought", which is a passive voice wording that fails to identify anybody else who might agree with the idea that the CDF was satisfied. Binksternet (talk) 18:16, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Sasanack, you are going beyond the sources again and trying to push an angle that the Church is sympathetic despite notifications being fully in force. Attempts to soften the actual position of the church more than it actually is constitutes POV pushing. If I thought the Church actually was sympathetic towards Ryden I would not hesitate in changing the article, but that is not reality. Second Quantization (talk) 20:06, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Grechs comments?

Should Cardinal Grech's comments go in the "Supporters" section or does it belong in the chronology of the "Roman Catholic Church's stance"? Webwidget (talk) 19:20, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

References

This is a premature RfC considering we haven't even discussed the issue here. Second Quantization (talk) 20:07, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Grech is not a supporter of Ryden. He communicated with her for the CDF, he reviewed her recent book, and in the review he evaluated her messages as purely personal, that is, not coming from the entities that Ryden says they come from (God, Jesus, Mary, etc.) Grech can hardly be called a supporter if his most positive stance is a somewhat sympathetic but passive one. He is not actively promoting Ryden. Binksternet (talk) 21:19, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

My mistake. Grech having a page devoted to his article at tlig.org under the "Testimonies" tab must have misled me. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:53, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't see Grech under the Testimonies tag. Binksternet (talk) 16:25, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Like I said, Grech's position as a sub-item within the Testimonies category on the main menu bar must have mislead me. [1] Testimonies--»Church Position--» Modifications by the CDF (2005)--» Fr Prospero Grech, OSA - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:36, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

I have changed the title of the RFC to be more generic as where the info should go is only one point, it remains that there is a key piece of information stated in this article that I believe should go in the chronology of the Churches stance and should be the last paragraph on it for the time being as it is published in 2014, the previous paragraph relates to 2007

"the CDF decided to enter into dialogue with her and formulated some questions regarding her and her messages. I personally wrote to her in the name of the CDF. Her response was precise and sincere, so it was thought that the CDF was satisfied. The then-Prefect of the CDF, Cardinal Ratzinger, gave her an audience, and the correspondence was interpreted as permission to leave it to the bishops to decide." Webwidget (talk) 14:29, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

No, Grech's comment is not going to end the section with a hopeful note. There is no hopeful note to this story. The Notification is still in force. The CDF has not revisited the case to make a new determination. Binksternet (talk) 15:48, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

What is reported to have transpired is that for a time "it was thought that the CDF was satisfied" and that "Cardinal Ratzinger, gave her an audience", these are 2 facts, what is the problem with adding them? Webwidget (talk) 18:08, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

He means he thought, it's his opinions, but they have no significance since the CDF was not satisfied. Second Quantization (talk) 18:11, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

You are interpreting his comments, if there is a secondary source to that effect I would see your point Webwidget (talk) 18:19, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

No. Simply no. There is no way to game this book review to make the Ryden story a positive one. The CDF still has a Notification against Ryden. Grech does not support Ryden's version of where her messages come from. Binksternet (talk) 18:36, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

The fact that Grech does not support Ryden's version of where her messages come from make it unbiased to include his comments that there was a period where "it was thought that the CDF was satisfied" and that following that dialouge "The then-Prefect of the CDF, Cardinal Ratzinger, gave her an audience, and the correspondence was interpreted as permission to leave it to the bishops to decide." Webwidget (talk) 20:55, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

"It was thought" is not specific. It could mean anybody, including Ryden. It does not necessarily mean there was a short period of time when the Vatican said they were "satisfied" with Ryden, that she could go find a sympathetic bishop or two, for instance in the Philippines. Instead, it could mean that Ryden was apparently satisfied with the question-and-answer sequence, and that she jumped to conclusions. Binksternet (talk) 22:35, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

It could mean anybody, but in the previous sentence Grech says "I personally wrote to her in the name of the CDF.", Grech is talking in historical context about the CDF being satisfied knowing full well what happened next and goes on to state this that Ratzinger's successor, Levada "reiterated that the Notification was still in force.". The comment that the CDF was thought to be satisfied for a time is reinforced by how Grech ends his article "Had this book been published earlier, after Vassula’s response to the questions put to her by the CDF, perhaps the decision to accept her and her messages would have been left to the local bishops and parish priests to decide." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Webwidget (talk • contribs) 22:56, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

The basic point that needs to be highlighted is that Cardinal Grech's article confirms that the CDF dialogue with Vassula took place. The WP page chooses to hide that information despite its completion being marked by a formal letter from Cardinal Ratzinger, available at: http://www.tlig.org/images/global/article/ratz.jpg and a photographed meeting of Vassula with Cardinal Ratzinger. If WP has problems 'allowing' the above information to be inserted into the article, then it would be better the whole section on the 'Roman Catholic stance' be removed as a balanced editor has earlier suggested. The more underlying problem with all this is best illustrated by the recent removal of my insertion of Grech's words, "and found her responses precise and sincere". The excuse given was the words are "promotional"! Is it not obvious that this mistaken mindset lies behind virtually all the editing of recent months and years? Despite the mass of negative insertions that are happily allowed on the page, any insertion that happens to be positive is deemed to be "promotional" ! Sasanack (talk) 09:40, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

It’s puzzling that the fact of the dialogue which took place at the Vatican (CDF) - as reported (Inside the Vatican magazine - 2014) by a Vatican based Cardinal who was part of that dialogue process - is not deemed relevant to be referenced in the Church Stance section. The fact that: ‘the CDF decided to enter into dialogue with her’ (Rydén) is notable as Rydén is Greek Orthodox and such a dialogue with a non-Catholic is a rare event at the CDF, as is the audience given Rydén with Ratzinger, the then Prefect of the CDF. Why not include these facts in the article to provide a clear context & chronology of events?

Grech’s words –"Had this book been published earlier, after Vassula’s response to the questions put to her by the CDF, perhaps the decision to accept her and her messages would have been left to the local bishops and parish priests to decide." – are significant, coming from the Vatican milieu from which he writes, he suggests that had the timing been different, there may well have been a different outcome... Why not include this ? Siamsiocht (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 14:52, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Please note that recruiting new users amongst your followers to influence an outcome is forbidden per WP:MEAT. Consensus is decided by strength of argument, not numbers, Second Quantization (talk) 09:30, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

• I've started an WP:ANI post related to this incident considering the vote stacking: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive832#MEAT_at_Vassula_Ryden. Second Quantization (talk) 09:43, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I am copying the same response to the two places (now three!) this matter seems to have been placed. Please understand that I do not understand the complex 'machinery' of Wikipedia! This matter is being raised by 'Second Quantization' who, until a few weeks ago operated under the name 'IRWolfie'. Why he has chosen to change his name seems very strange to me to say the least! The recent attempted edits to the Vassula page are as a result of the appearance, in January, of an important review of a recent book by Vassula in a long established magazine, Inside the Vatican. The review was written by a Cardinal who played an important role in the Vatican's only dialogue with Vassula. A group of editors have consistently blocked reference to this dialogue on the WP page. The result of the relentless editing of the Vassula page by the same group of editors has resulted in a ridiculous collection of negative material with almost no positive material. Sasanack (talk) 11:39, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Kinda baffled here seeing my name in a post outside the Talk page where I posted yesterday – as a relative newbie to Wikipedia (tried making a few edits a couple of years ago, but found the formatting/editing text a bit beyond me – more complex than I’d figured!) – thought I’d maybe give it a try again when I saw that ‘Inside the Vatican’ article. Saw the article briefly referenced in the Rydén article hence my visit to the Talk page where I posted for the 1st time ever adding my 2 cents… (how to actually post in the Talk page took me a while to figure out!) Appreciate I’m new to this but thought that Wikipedia was open to anyone to volunteer… will hang in here & hopefully learn more! ☺ Siamsiocht (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 18:20, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Are Grech's comments regarding CDF dialogue relevant to the article? Webwidget (talk) 11:26, 4 April 2014 (UTC)