Template talk:Parkour and Freerunning
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- Many Traceurs were removed. They do Parkour and should stay. and By the way a "Traceur" is someone who does Parkour.
- Having Parkour and Freerunning section is pointless because most do "both"
- The contest listed are "Parkour Contests".
- The Shows are Parkour shows
- I have also listed to many tricks used in it such as Wallflip and Vault (parkour).
- XMA is a type of Tricking and many incorporate this into Freerunning
- Human Flag and Muscle-Ups are strength feats related to Parkour, especially the Flag which almost "all" Freerunners perform.
- The training section features many strength training and feats of strength used in Parkour, Im not sure how exactly it should be set up though.
- Either way Most to All of these removals were injustice and unexplained. Please explain them here and work something out "before" removing them again.
I put a lot of work into and would really like a reason, Thanks BlackDragon 01:09, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
- Ok, sure, I'll go through it point by point.
- I removed the practitioners from the list because there was no reliable evidence connecting them to Parkour.
- Sanki King - the only source which connects him to Parkour is wildly inaccurate and unreliable. It sounds like he might practise Freerunning, but at present there's no reliable evidence of him being a traceur.
- Suriya - He has done stunts that one source claimed were in a 'Parkour-style', but that does not make him a traceur. There is no evidence he's ever practised Parkour.
- Shahid and Kunal Kapoor - Their articles contains no mention of either Parkour or Freerunning. Again, no evidence of any connection.
- Akshay Kumar - His article contains only a single, unreferenced mention of Parkour. No reliable sources.
- John Hennigan - No connection whatsoever to Parkour. His article contained an erroneous and unsourced mention of Parkour, but that's been fixed now.
- Vivek Oberoi - No mention of Parkour in his article.
- The other changes I made to people:
- Cyril Raffaelli - Again, there are no references that say he's a traceur. You and I might know that he practises Parkour, but as far as Wikipedia is concerned at the moment his only connection is that he's friends with David Belle and has appeared in notable films with him.
- Raymond Belle - Raymond Belle is not a traceur. Although he trained in the same way, the discipline of Parkour began only with his son David, and the practitioners that came after. Although it's an interesting philosophical discussion, I don't think you can retroactively assign Parkour labels to people who were trained before Parkour as a discipline was created.
- Damien Walters and Ryan Doyle - They use the terms Parkour and Freerunning interchangeably, but there's no evidence of them ever practising Parkour.
- Tim Shieff and Daniel Ilabaca - Clearly freerunners. They sometimes train in ways similar to that of Parkour, but their mentality is that of Freerunning rather than Parkour. If you don't think of the different approaches to training as being separate then your mentality is that of Freerunning.
- Sebastien Foucan - Created Freerunning, but was also a Parkour practitioner prior to that. Probably the only person that definitely belongs to both categories.
- I created separate sections for Parkour and Freerunning simply because they are two different disciplines, and labelling a practitioner of one as a practitioner of the other would lead to confusion.
- I removed the section on contests because quite simply, neither Parkour nor Freerunning have competitions. Both David Belle and Sebastien Foucan, the creators of the disciplines, are quite clear that neither are competitive. Art of motion is an acrobatics competition, it's just a question of who can do the most impressive things, and as such nothing to do with Parkour or Freerunning. The Ultimate Parkour Challenge was a video-making competition combined with a timed course. It had an obstacle course element, but there needs to be more than just an obstacle course for something to be Parkour. Even the practitioners on the show agreed that it was nothing to do with Parkour, which was why they fell out with it's producers. Jump City: Seattle, like Art of Motion, was an acrobatics competition. It also featured a timed course, but like I said before, this doesn't make it Parkour. This show is a major problem for the Parkour community, because it was both reasonably high-profile and vastly inaccurate.
- Not all of the shows you listed are Parkour shows. Neither of the District 13 films, nor either of the Yamakasi films, nor Freerunner, nor Choose not to fall, are Parkour shows. The only ones that are Parkour shows are the documentaries, because while the others feature people running, jumping and climbing on buildings, they don't mention a discipline where people train by trying to move past obstacles, which is what Parkour is. The Yamakasi films and Choose not to Fall do portray training, but they show Art du Deplacement and Freerunning rather than Parkour. Therefore, it is misleading to label all of these as being Parkour shows.
- Neither Parkour nor Freerunning include the concept of 'tricks'. The Parkour article in particular is quite clear that there is no list of separate movements. Both Parkour and Freerunning are training disciplines based on the idea of moving past obstacles, and both are against the idea of 'set techniques' or standard movements. Incorporating a list of 'moves' into this template is therefore also misleading.
- I didn't change the link to XMA so I'm not sure what you meant by raising it here.
- I removed the whole section on training because none of it was relevant. Parkour is itself a training system, and the whole idea of separate training you do in order to get better at Parkour is a misunderstanding. To get better at Parkour you simply practise Parkour. With Freerunning, the whole idea of Freerunning is that you use every experience you have as training, include whatever you want. As such, there can never be a list of ways to train with Freerunning, because by definition it includes everything. A section separating training from the disciplines themselves is therefore superfluous to both.
- Please, if you disagree with these reasons, discuss it here rather than just adding your changes again. If you don't have reliable sources supporting your changes they will just be reverted.
- Feraess (talk) 12:00, 8 May 2013 (UTC)