User:Archola/Sanity

Come together, right now, over Jesus

(Beatles lyrics altered to make a point)

This is getting ridiculous. Since I have been here, I have seen three main coalitions playing tug-of-war with the article: those favoring religous views, those favoring historical-critical views, and those favoring ahistorical views (ie, the Jesus myth). None of these groups is cohesive enough to call a cabal, and frankly there is no Protocols of the Elders of Christ to establish a Christian cabal. What has been endemic has been conflict and suspicion on all sides. I agree with SOPHIA—it's the herding instinct run amuck, and some of the herd are rams who want to butt heads. Why can't we all just agree to cooperate and create an encyclopedic article?

The "Christian views" section will always read like a Sunday School lesson or a sermon, because that's exactly what it is. We also have a historicity section for the various historical-critical views. There are several of us who have been working to make sure that the Gospel section gives as neutral as possible a summary of what the Gospels actually say. However, we keep getting caught in a POV tug-of-war. We have to fight those who want to push a narrow theological view by selectively quoting scripture, and we have to fight others who want to impeach the Gospels. That's not what the "Life and Teachings" section is for. Those details belong later in the article.

The Zealots are barely mentioned in the NT, and where they are, the translation is disputed. Thus the Zealots don't belong in the Gospel summary section. They do, however, belong in the historicity section. If you want a source linking the Zealots with the Jesus movement, try S.G.F Brandon, Jesus and the Zealots: a study of the political factor in primitive Christianity, Manchester University Press (1967) ISBN 0684310104. That recent Jesus Dynasty book might also be related (not sure), but overall I'm not sure how many sources would agree with Brandon.

"Buried in a tomb" and "entombed" mean exactly the same thing to me, so I could live with either version. If people disagree with the connotations of either one, that's their choice. Similarly I believe that "Born Again," "spiritually reborn" and "Born from Above" are all equivalent translations of John 3:3, but there are others who would dispute the connotations of one or two of these translations.

As I said earlier, if we want the official Roman Catholic position we could always e-mail the Pope. Drogo misses the point that the third paragraph discusses what the majority of Catholics, Orthodox Christians, and Protestants believe. Remember that the "W" in "DWEEC" stands for "Western." By pushing a Catholic POV, and implicitly excluding the views of Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy and the Assyrian Church of the East (for example), Drogo is engaging in DWEECish behavior.

I added what I believed was a balanced paragraph to the "Ministry" section, replacing the earlier phrasing of "Jesus condemned the religious leaders for their legalism and hypocrisy." While that does appear in the Gospels, it is misleading, especially where the Pharisees are concerned. I am open to suggestions on revising the paragraph about Sadducees, Pharisees and Samaritans, if we can ever settle the POV tug-of-war over the Ministry section.

I agree with Oub's revision of the "Arrest, trial, and execution" section. I am not convinced that John 8 is unrelated. For one thing, some would say that John's gospel is out of chronological order (for example, John puts the Cleansing of the Temple at the beginning of Jesus' ministry). For two things, some would say that Jesus was condemned for his entire ministry, and not just for the events following Palm Sunday. Neither was I offended by Oub's remarks; I've always said that reasonable people can (agree to) disagree.

However, I was really responding to the anon IP who keeps adding "accusation or a slur that Jesus was a Samaritan" to the ministry section, which is somewhat out of context. If we're going to mention it, we should summarize John 8 as a whole. It's an interesting chapter that begins with Jesus rescuing a woman caught in adultery ("Let he who is without sin cast the first stone") and ends with Jesus narrowly escaping being stoned himself. Jesus preaches to some Judeans who question his authority, to which Jesus evokes the names of Abraham and (apparently) God Himself.

The passage in Acts shows that the rebellion of Judas of Galilee was still very much on the mind of Judeans even after Jesus was crucified. There are some who would say that those Judeans who did not accept Jesus saw him as just another Galilean troublemaker. Not to mention that in John's Gospel, when Nicodemus stands up for Jesus, they ask Nicodemus if he is also a Galilean (John 7:50-52). It shouldn't be too hard to find sources who make this point. Either way, I believe that we do need to say something in the historicity section about the relationship between Judea and Galilee. This does not belong in the Gospel summary section, but rather in the historicity section.

As noted above, once the Jesus article is unlocked, we are ready to apply Andrew C's revision of the name section (which really belongs in the "Historical reconstruction" section anyway).

Finally, it's not just Robsteadman. Alienus and Giovanni were both recently banned for violating 3RR at the Christianity article, and Alienus' ban was extended for incivility. Yes, they broke the rules, but I think people are missing the bigger picture: the ones who get into trouble are those who are the most frustrated and feel provoked into violating the rules. A liberal might say that they (and Jason Gastrich—it happens to all sides) are all victims of WP society. I just know that the Big-Brotherish Two Color Data website is only going to take this as further evidence of a DWEEC cabal. (I've been advised not to mention the website by name. Of course, HV30 had to point that out at Wikipedia review:further trouble.)

There are others who have been critical, but not as vocal. I am flattered by Silence's remarks at the AID because he seems to be saying that the Jesus article is of better quality than the Christianity article. I honestly believed that we had been making some slow but considerable progress here. However, the recent flare up following the rhetorical napalm of "No Criticism Allowed" shows that problems persist here as well. Why can't we all just stop herding and start cooperating? Grigory Deepdelver^Talk 15:58, 26 April 2006 (UTC)