User:Rgima/sandbox

Hi, I (Ashleyhpace (talk) 00:14, 17 July 2017 (UTC))also have peer reviewed your article. My comments can be found at the bottom of your sandbox and are also italicized.

Hi, I'm djiang1019, I'll be peer reviewing your article. All my comments will be italicized.

Article Evaluation

Some sections are a bit superfluous.

The census at the beginning seems to be rather wordy and perhaps not completely necessary.

I agree. I wouldn't say that the data is completely unnecessary, but in its current state it is definitely difficult to read through. This is something you could improve on structurally. It also seems a bit much for the lead section, perhaps create a separate section titled Demographic Distribution.

Sections about the origins of Welsh are speculative; lots of "probably's".

Although it is good to not have "probably's" and more definitive information, keep in mind that much data regarding history may not be definitive. If you can find sources that provide more information, you can perhaps add to the section and remove the "probably's", but don't make uncertainties certain.

To edit this article, I would like to delve deeper into the origins of Welsh to try to clear up some of the speculative sections. The origins of Welsh seem to be unclear, particularly how it was introduced during the Bronze/Iron Ages

See above comment.

Wales and the Britons 350-1064, Charles-Edwards, TM

The Welsh Language: A History, Janet Davies

Other comments:

• "During the Early Middle Ages the British language began to fragment due to increased dialect differentiation, evolving into Welsh and the other Brittonic languages." - This is copied from the origins section, perhaps give some examples as to what these other Brittonic languages are.
• I've seen some articles have an "Examples" sections with common words or phrases in the language. Perhaps you could consider adding one of these? It would not be difficult and would add useful information

ARTICLE

Lead Section

In the 2011 census it was recorded that the proportion of people able to speak Welsh had dropped from 20.8% to 19%. Despite an increase in the overall size of the Welsh population this still meant that the number of Welsh speakers in Wales dropped from 582,000 in 2001 to 562,000 in 2011. However this figure was still much higher than 508,000 or 18.7% of people who said they could speak Welsh in the 1991 census.

History

The Welsh language originated from the Britons at the end of the 6th century. Prior to this, three distinct languages were spoken by the Britons during the 5th and 6th centuries: Latin, Irish, and British. According to T.M Charles Edwards, the emergence of Welsh as a distinct language occurred towards the end of this period. [14] The emergence of Welsh was not instantaneous and clearly identifiable; the shift occurred over a long period of time, some claiming to extend as late as the 9th century. Kenneth H. Jackson proposed a more general time period for the emergence, specifically after the battle of Dyrham, a military battle between the West Saxons and the Britons in 577 AD.

Four periods are identified in the history of Welsh, with rather indistinct boundaries. The period immediately following the language's emergence from Brittonic is sometimes referred to as Primitive Welsh;[15] this was followed by the Old Welsh period, considered to stretch from the beginning of the 9th century to the 12th century.[15] The Middle Welsh period is considered to have lasted from then until the 14th century, when the Modern Welsh period began, which in turn divided into Early and Late Modern Welsh.

The name Welsh originated as an exonym given to its speakers by the Anglo-Saxons, meaning "foreign speech" (see Walha). The native term for the language is Cymraeg, meaning "British", and the name of the country of Wales is Cymru

Origins

The development of Welsh as its own distinct language was influenced by other Brittonic languages, such as Cornish, Breton, and Cumbric. Classified as Insular Celtic, the British language has unclear origins. According to some, Welsh may have arrived during the Bronze Age. Those who support this theory believe that Welsh likely originated somewhere along the Atlantic borders of what is now the United Kingdom, and spread throughout Europe due to the booming economy of this time. Janet Davies, though, argues that it is impossible to clearly define when Welsh became more commonplace[16]. In either case, Welsh was certainly more widely spoken in the Iron Age; this can be seen in the names of rivers, like the Danube, and cities, like London. During the Early Middle Ages the British language began to fragment due to increased dialect differentiation, evolving into Welsh and the other Brittonic languages. It is believed by some to have become its own language somewhere around the end of the 6th century.[17]At least four different forms of Welsh language predecessors have been identified in these early periods: Galatian, Gallo-Brittonic, Leptonic, and Celtiberian.[16]

Kenneth H. Jackson suggested that the evolution in syllabic structure and sound pattern was complete by around 550, and labelled the period between then and about 800 "Primitive Welsh".[18] This Primitive Welsh may have been spoken in both Wales and the Hen Ogledd ("Old North"), the Brittonic-speaking areas of what is now northern England and southern Scotland, and therefore been the ancestor of Cumbric as well as Welsh. Jackson, however, believed that the two varieties were already distinct by that time.[18] The earliest Welsh poetry – that attributed to the Cynfeirdd or "Early Poets" – is generally considered to date to the Primitive Welsh period. However, much of this poetry was supposedly composed in the Hen Ogledd, raising further questions about the dating of the material and language in which it was originally composed.[18] This discretion stems from the fact that Cumbric was widely believed to have been the language used in Hen Ogledd. An 8th century inscription in Tywyn shows the language already dropping inflections in the declension of nouns.[19]

Janet Davies proposed that the origins of Welsh language were much less definite; in The Welsh Language: A History, she proposes that Welsh may have been around even earlier than 600 AD. This is evidenced by the dropping of final syllables from Brittonic: bardos (poet) became bardd, and abona (river) became afon. [16] Though both Davies and Jackson cite minor changes in syllable structure and sounds as evidence for the creation of Old Welsh, Davies suggests it may be more appropriate to refer to this derivative language as Lingua Brittanica rather than characterizing it as a new language altogether.

A very good start! Your contributions are definitely filling in the history section of this language. Just make sure you use the cite tool when actually editing the article, instead of simply putting the citation number in brackets.

Ashley Pace's Review:

Rgima,

I agree that there is some unnecessary information in this article. For example, for an overview article, the given information about the Proposed Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 may not be necessary. For me, I understand the basics of the measure with the few sentences before and the few sentences after the detailed bulleted list. Perhaps this information is relevant but just needs to be rearranged. Would a visual or note outside of the body of the article be better? I would be interested to know what you think about this passage. The problem you address with the census information at the beginning of the article is very real. I also found the information distracting and tedious. Many other language articles have this information in the overview chart to the right of the article. Again, maybe this information just needs to be rearranged. 

With regards to the article you have in your sandbox, all of the given information seems relevant and gives a very decent history of the language. At moments, some information is lacking. For example, you could provide the “four different forms of Welsh” you discuss or further explain why with the poetry being “composed in the Hen Ogledd” it caused “further questions about the dating of the material and language in which it was originally composed.” The only thing I found distracting is the names given. Who are these people? Why do they have the authority to comment on the language?

Upon reading the article I thought it maintained a neutral stance throughout. You make a good point about the moments of speculation in the article. At first it makes the article sound like the author is making assumptions, or even showing bias towards the topic. As djiang1019 said, the cited information may in fact be unclear and/or inconclusive even though there is a lot of evidence for that specific idea. I see that the citation directs you to a very expensive book that I cannot seem to find free access to online. Finding Koch’s book at a library might help you to figure out whether the “probably” stems from the author or from the source. 

I see in your writing you address the “probably” issue found in the original article. How relevant to the language is it that Welsh may have also arrived in Britain during the Iron Age? I see this was omitted in your revision. Your article as a whole remains neutral throughout and impressively respects and portrays different viewpoints. 

I checked Citations 1, 12, 33, 54, 65, and 86 to see if the links worked and that the information in the article corresponds with that in the source:

Citation 1-The link redirects to a page that says, “Resource Not Available.” The note underneath says the page may just be “temporarily unavailable.” I tried the link twice with the same result but maybe the link will work at another time. Cannot verify that information in the article is that found in the source.

Citation 12-This citation does not have a link. Cites a book by D. Walter Thomas and Edward Hughes. Cannot verify that information in the article is that found in the source.

Citation 33-The link works and the information found in the source supports the information given in the article. Important to note that this source uses information from “articles in the Western Mail…and interviews heard on Radio Cymru.” Not truly a primary source.

Citation 54-This link gives a 404 error. Page not found, cannot verify that information in the article is that found in the source.

Citation 65-Link works and the information in the source supports that given in the article. 

Citation 86-Another unlinked citation for a book. ISBN number is given.

The citations in your article are not linked but the numbers correspond with those given in the Wikipedia article. The citation tool within the sandbox allows you to link your citations. Also needed in the actual article, the numbers alone will not connect to the existing citations. 

The sources used in the Welsh Language article seem to be reliable and unbiased sources. Looking over the list there are many references to books and news sites. Many of the facts used in the article come from recent censuses and the fact presented throughout the article are also up to date. 

I believe that the following are new sources you are using:

Wales and the Britons 350-1064, Charles-Edwards, TM

The Welsh Language: A History, Janet Davies.

“The Welsh Language” is a book already included in the article’s citations but is not linked and there is not an ISBN given. “Wales and the Britons, 350-1064” appears to be a very reliable history book. Both of your sources are neutral and unbiased. Like the sources already used in the article, these are up to date and still relevant sources.

Wishing you continued success with this project,

Ashley Pace Ashleyhpace (talk) 00:14, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

PEER EVALUATION RESPONSE:

As a result of the feedback of Ashleyhpace and djiang1019, I have implemented the following changes:

-edited the census info at the beginning of the article

-linked citations in-article as well as hyperlinked info requested by both

-further explained why the Hen Ogledd poetry was a confounding variable in theories of the origins

-in general, added more information to both the history and origins sections to include more theories and provide evidence