User talk:Akkyma

Finns Party

If you intend to keep editing Wikipedia, you should familiarise yourself with the Neutral point of view policy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view): "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias". In addition, the phrase "Supporting the traditional family model" is cited with a source that reported on the party's platform (https://www.iltalehti.fi/vaalit/a/2011022513256956). Your phrasing is biased and sourceless, and you will therefore continue to be reverted if you try to insist on it. If you want to complain about the party's politics, start a blog or something -- Wikipedia is not the place for that. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 14:15, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Response: Dear User:Jaakko Sivonen,

In the following response, I will be using Finnish source material which I translated into English. Assuming that you can understand the original sources, I won't cite in Finnish in case somebody else sees this response and wants to know what this is about:

Wikipedia's Neutral point of view policy states that all encyclopaedic content on Wikipedia is to written from a position of neutrality. However, 'traditional family' is not neutral terminology. In fact, it is discriminatory and misleading because it refers to a family definition by Abrahamic religions - in this case: Christianity which conquered Finland in the 11th century. This is in contrast to Finnish dictionaries actually say where it is defined as "A group of people living together, usually ordinary, consisting of two people who are married or cohabiting with each other and their children / single parents with children / a childless couple." (Source: https://www.suomisanakirja.fi/perhe) In conclusion: The discriminatory definition of 'family' invented by Abrahamic religions is not the reality of Finland and thereby not only misrepresenting but factually false.

Furthermore, you cut off the rest of your cited sentence from Wikipedia's policy which says ", all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." You mentioned a source which backs your citation. However, that source is not reliable because regardless of how politically biased Iltalehti is or not: They specifically wrote "Source: Perussoumalaiset's Parliamentary Election Programme." at the end of the article. In fact, it isn't actually a news article, it is just a summary list of that party's election programme using the same discriminatory language instead of neutral, journalist-correct terminology.

After having debunked why "support of the traditional family" is not only discriminatory but also violating Wikipedia's neutrality policy, I am now going to justifymy proposition which you falsely deleted multiple times: I proposed adjustments in a wording such as "Perussuomalaiset discriminates LGBTQ people and disregards gender identity by promoting the so-called 'traditional family'" instead of "supporting" because it doesn't imply the 'traditional family' to be a new or socially advanced development in any way but instead summarising and explicitly stating what Perussoumalaiset is doing to humans: The word 'promoting' implies that is they are trying to push an agenda / concept which is the appropriate term in this situation. The word 'discriminate' is used to convey what this party has already expressed in their election programme which you cited earlier. 'discriminate' is a neutral, appropriate term for this situation because according to the Finnish dictionary, it means "take something worse, treat it worse, put someone worse" and "reject" (Source: https://www.suomisanakirja.fi/syrjiä): Perussoumalaiset is treating LGBTQ families worse than man-woman-child families by rejecting their legal status which they explicitly mention in 6) on the list you cited. Moreover, they are rejecting to agree with modern science on gender identity as the blog on their page demonstrates (Source: https://blogit.perussuomalaiset.fi/lauri-karppi/sateenkaaripahkina/), and thus they check all the points in the definition of what it means to 'discriminate' which is why my correction is not only valid but neutrally correct.

Respectfully, Akkyma

As we are writing in English here on en.wiki, English definitions of words are more pertinent. The Oxford English Dictionary gives the following definition to the verb "discriminate" (in the sense that it was used in the article): "to treat one person or group worse/better than another in an unfair way" (https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/american_english/discriminate). That makes it a weasel word in Wikipedia terms, that is, a word choice intended to influence the reader in a certain way. Anyway, as a compromise, I suggest my new version: it merely states the facts (opposition to certain things) without using either the term "traditional family" or "discriminating against". --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 21:38, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Response: Although I don't think the Oxford definition differs in its content from Suomisanakirja.fi and therefore changes what I wrote, I am fine with your new 'compromise edit' as it accurately describes the party's intentions as well. Akkyma (talk) 05:16, 5 December 2021 (UTC)