User talk:Dante Uru

You seem to be operating under a misconception. Wikipedia editors aren't allowed to jump to their own conclusions and and then demand that other editors prove us wrong. Agricolae (talk) 05:38, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not jumping to any conclusion. How many basque kings married an Oria in this time period ? We know ONE and FURTHERMORE, and we don't know about her background from christian source...

It's why I just stated that Ibn Hazm speak about an Oria married to the king... i'm not saying it's a historical fact. But the probability that it's the same person is overwhelming.

We know two. One named Fortun who abdicated in 905, and one named Garcia who was killed in 859. As to probabilities, when we only know from the oldest sources the names of four Basque women, total, from Fortun's time and before, and two of them are named Oria, your 'overwhelming probability' has no basis whatsoever.

Even were you right, it is still inappropriate to substitute your own deduction for the conclusions of published scholars. Wikipedia editors are not allowed to use deduction, they are not allowed to reach their own conclusions, they are not allowed to reject published conclusions just because they don't like them. We use sources, and both Levi Provencal and Sanchez Albornoz conclude that the Garcia named by Ibn Hazm as married to Musa's daughter Oria is the same Garcia who was son-in-law of Musa, killed at Monte Laturce. You simply wanting the answer to be different is not a sufficient reason to reject this scholarly consensus to the contrary. Agricolae (talk) 09:27, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Which is the other woman called Oria ? I hope you're not saying we know "the oria from the Codice" and "the oria from Ibn Hazm"....

There are a total of four records of Basque women's names from Fortun's generation and before. 1) The Codice de Roda names Oria, wife of Fortun. 2) The Codice de Roda names Oneca sister of Fortun. 3) the Codice de Roda names Assona, wife of Musa ibn Musa. 4) Ibn Hayyan named Awriyah, daughter of Musa ibn Musa and wife of Garcia. In addition there are two charters that name the wife of Garcia Iniguez, but both are dubious in authenticity, and they give different names, Urraca vs Toda. It would be patently absurd to draw any conclusions about two instances of a name having to refer to the same woman, when the total number of known names is so small.

On the other hand, there are three instances of a son-in-law of Musa being named: 1) his son-in-law Azraq ibn Mantil. 2) his son-in-law Garcia, killed at Monte Laturce. 3) the husband of his daughter Awriyah, named Garcia. It takes special gymnastics to conclude that the Garcia, son-in-law of Musa was an entirely different man from the 'other' Garcia, son-in-law of Musa, but was instead not even named Garcia at all. That is why Wikipedia editors don't get to draw their own conclusions. Agricolae (talk) 22:13, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So there is no other Auria married to a Basque King. I'm not jumping to conclusion, I'm establishing a fact: Ibn Hazm said that an Oria married a Basque King. It's more than likely that it was that one. Since there is a doubt, I'm not writing that it's actually the case, I'm just letting this relevant fact be known.

Ibn Hazm said that Oria married Garcia. Actual medieval historians, Levi Provencal, Sanchez Albornoz, and Lacarra, have all concluded that this Garcia who married Awriyah was the Garcia who is documented as son-in-law of Musa, the man killed in 859. You, as a Wikipedia editor, don't get to decide that they are all wrong, and the source itself is wrong, and that she married an entirely different man, Fortun. That is not how Wikipedia works. Not only is the reasoning you are using flawed, the very fact that you are using logic to contradict both primary and secondary sources is itself not permitted. Agricolae (talk) 00:30, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a direct quote on Levi Provencal, Albornoz and Lacarra take on Ibn Hazm statement ?

Levi Provencal addresses this in his genealogical table of the Banu Qasi. He shows the daughter of Musa ibn Musa as "Oria (Awriya) (se caso con Garcia, muerto en el monte Laturce hacia 859)" [this is from the Spanish translation of his work published as part of the Menendez Pidal Historia series, but the French version says something similar.]

Lacarra says, "Oria, hija esta de Musa ibn Musa, casaria con Garcia, tambien "rey de los Vascos", segun el mismo autor, y fue madre de Musa ibn Garcia: este Garcia moriria en Albelda en defensa de su suegro."

Sanchez Albornoz: I gave the wrong article here - it is actually in his "El Tercer Rey de España":Venceido en Monte Laturce se salvo del cautiverio huyendo en un caballo que un cristiano del ejercite de Ordono le entrego, perecio en la batalla su yerno Garcia, . . . (footnote) No sabemos quien due este Garcia. Ibn Hazm en su Yamharat ansab al-'Arab incluye entre los hijos de Musa a "Awriya que fue dada en matrimonio a Garcia, rey de los Vascos, de cuyo matrimonio nacio Musa ibn Garsiya [de la Granja citation omitted]. Pero Ibn Hazm probablemente erro al calificar de rey de los vascos al Garcia yerno de Musa. . . . Puesto que existio un magnate vasco yerno de Musa llamado "Garsiya"" no podemos dudar del testimonio de la Cronica de Alfonso III sobre su muerte luchando en Clavijo, pero habremos de renunciar a soponerle 'ily de los vascos y habremos de buscarle entre los otros Garcia de que dan noticia Ibn Hayyan o Al-'Udri."

So these are three notable authors all referring to the husband of Oria as the Garcia killed at Monte Laturce (also called the second battle of Albelda, and the basis for the legendary battle of Clavijo). None of them identify the husband of Oria as king Fortun (who was not yet king at the time of the battle when Musa's son-in-law was killed).

Ok thanks you, you convinced me that i cannot state that Oria is the spouse of king Garcia. Not because i don't think she was, but we need more research. I don't think any modern historian can discard Ibn Hazm as "mistaken" on that issue, since he is so close to the event and so important as a scholar. The question is still open.