User talk:Erdan

Wrong tattoo

If the bit about Yue Fei's tattoo on the Kaifeng Jews page is wrong, fix it. (Ghostexorcist 11:07, 29 April 2007 (UTC))

The tattoo is mentioned in the Yue Fei Biography that was compiled in 1345. Since it was written by the historian Yue Ke, Yue Fei’s grandson, it could be that the story of the tattoo was an invention to make Yue sound more patriotic.

I would just stick with the most accepted spelling. (Ghostexorcist 11:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC))

A brief line stating those 4 characters might not be enough to convince me that it is the actual spelling. The accepted spelling (at least in the Chinese civilian population) is actually the one that sounds more patriotic, but recent articles have tried to combat the legitimacy of "the patriotic one". Since I cannot be convinced either way, I will not discuss it anymore as I do not like arguing on sided things that lack evidence.

Also, when you mentioned his biography, I had my doubts. There is too much folklore and legend in his biography for it to be completely true. e.g. The biography mentioned his father saving him from a flood and dying in the process, which was later proved untrue as his father lived.

The historical biography I spoke of (and provided a link for) was the Yue Fei Zhuan (Chinese: 岳飞传 – "Yue Fei Biography"), which was compiled in 1345 as part of the Song Shi (Chinese: 宋史 - "History of Song") by Yuan Dynasty Prime-Minister Toktoghan (Chinese: 脫脫) (1314-1355). I think you are confusing that with Yue's fictional wuxia biography, Shuo Yue Quan Zhuan (Chinese: 說岳全傳 - "The Story of Yue Fei"), which was written by Qian Cai (Chinese: 钱彩) sometime during the reigns of Qing Dynasty Emperor Kangxi and Emperor Yongzheng (1661-1735).

I realize the Yue Fei Biography has some supernatural elements in it as well and may have been the bases for The Story of Yue Fei. I know the thing about his father drowning is fake. I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but I have looked into Yue's background before. I rewrote 99% of the Yue Fei page. I'm sure it has mistakes, but you should have seen it before I got a hold of it! I also initiated and wrote 100% of the article about Zhou Tong, Yue's archery teacher. (Ghostexorcist 10:31, 30 April 2007 (UTC))

I am actually talking about his bio in Song Shi. In Chinese 历史 books, there is often questionable information presented. I still stand without choosing any side as to the real name. You seem to be really interested in Chinese History, it is most fascinating to me. I wish you good luck on your future articles.

I'm not trying to persuade you to choose either tattoo. Like I said, I know the 岳飞传 has supernatural elements, like him being named after the Peng bird and that he had "supernatural strength" and could draw a 300 catty bow (which leads me to believe it was used as the bases for the 說岳全傳). I've corresponded at length with experts in Chinese history about Yue's various bios because I am currently gathering info for a book about Zhou Tong's historical, folklore, literature, and martial arts references. My theory is that a distinct fictional Zhou Tong was created in the world of wuxia novels (like the 說岳全傳) and folktales (like “Meeting Zhou Tong by Chance”) and was then popularized in the world of martial arts. Several martial arts attributed to Yue Fei include Zhou in their lineage history. It is this Zhou that most people take to be real, instead of the historical Zhou that VERY little is known about. Some of the experts mentioned that Zhou could have been a Confucian scholar since archery is one of their Six Arts. But if you include Yue’s ability to draw a bow and crossbow, it could mean Zhou was a former soldier since the crossbow was the weapon of choice for soldiers in the Song. It took less time and training for a person to become proficient with the crossbow than it did the bow. Ultimately we will never know since there isn't enough extant material available on him. I also have a copy of Zhou’s fictional biography that I would like to translate into English when my Chinese vastly improves.

One expert on the history of Chinese archery told me the first part of the 岳飞传 that mentions Yue's supernatural strength and archery abilities is very "formulaic", meaning that it shares certain "stock" phrasing with numerous other bios on famous historical archers. Also, the 岳飞传 may have been compiled in the Yuan, but I've been told by experts that it was actually written by Yue Fei's grandson, the historian and poet Yue Ke. Apart from the supernatural stuff and the "stock" phrasing, Yue Ke's authorship does take away from the document's credibility. He no doubt beefed up his grandfather’s abilities and qualities to make him sound like that much more of a hero.(Ghostexorcist 18:22, 30 April 2007 (UTC))