User talk:Lfishel

Agkistrodon piscivorus

Hi Lfishel, On 13 May 2007 you corrected a statement in the Agkistrodon piscivorus article regarding the way it swims compared to other non-venomous species of water snakes. The previous statement, which said that "They swim with their entire body skimming along the surface...", was certainly incorrect, but would you happen to have a reference for your version? It sounds reasonable, but I'm not entirely sure. It's also the only statement in the entire article that does not have a reference, so I'd appreciate it if you could help me out a little on this one. Cheers, --Jwinius (talk) 13:38, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

First of all, I apologize for the delay. I guess I haven't logged on in a while so I just saw your message today.

I wouldn't say the statement I removed was "incorrect" so much as poorly worded. The only direct reference I can find in any of my books is in a field guide (possibly not the most scholarly of works) and is almost as poorly worded. Without a photo to go with it, it gives the impression that the snake is either skipping across the surface or floating like styrofoam.

My description comes from personal experience. I understand that the "Wikipedia way" is that everything must be attributable to a published source, but this is a little like trying to find a reference saying that the sky is blue. People (usually) don't run double blind studies to prove what you can see with simple observation, or even necessarily bother to write it down. Lfishel (talk) 06:08, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. Personally, I have no doubt that A. piscivorus does swim with much of its body above the surface, but I am entirely unsure whether this is a characteristic with which it can be distinguished from other non-venomous species. Do you know what all the other North American water snakes look like when they swim at the surface, especially older individuals of those species that can become quite large? Since I don't think we can back it up, I'm going to remove the statement. By the way, I have asked several herpetologists about this and they didn't know about it for sure either, but if anyone comes back with a reference, we'll restore the statement. Cheers, --Jwinius (talk) 11:06, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about academic herpetologists, but among keepers who go out in the field in areas where both live, it is a well known diagnostic. Swimming A. piscivorus typically look like the photo I added, with roughly half their body out of the water, varying, of course, with how fast they are swimming and possibly availability of food (body fat). Nerodia, typically have only their head and maybe a few inches of their neck above the surface and the entire rest of the body below. Some of the body may occasionally break the surface as they move, but it is visually, very different than A. piscivorus. This was shown quite well by the photo I removed that someone mistakenly posted as A. piscivorus. Other snakes like rattlesnakes may also "float" like A. p., but since they are not typically mistaken for A. p. that's usually not an issue. And of course, to someone who is really afraid of snakes, no diagnostic is certain because they see things that simply aren't there... I have the word out to a friend who does snake removals to loan me any Nerodia he finds so I can get a good comparison photo.

Here is the field guide reference I mentioned and another I found today:

"Although the cottonmouth is capable of completely submerging, when not frightened a swimming cottonmouth usually holds it's head well above the water and swims slowly, with its entire body on the surface." Bartlett, RD, Bartlett, PP. 2005. Guide and Reference to the Snakes of Eastern and Central North America (North of Mexico). University Press of Florida. ISBN 0-8130-2935-X.

"Also, unlike water snakes, the cottonmouth swims in a leisurely way, its whole body floating buoyantly with the head high; water snakes swim by squirming rapidly along, their bodies dropping below the surface when they stop." Tennant, A. 1977. A Field Guide to Snakes of Florida. Gulf Publishing Company. ISBN 0-98819-291-X.

The fact is well documented. The problem is that I feel the wording of these two statements is unclear and possibly misleading, and what I wrote, which I think is more accurate, is different enough that I'm not entirely comfortable writing it and then siting one of these as the reference.Lfishel (talk) 16:45, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Excellent homework! Although I've personally never seen one swimming, I've caught plenty of small water snakes in the act and I agree that they definitely didn't look like the one in your picture. On the other hand, I once caught a huge Nerodia fasciata that was so heavily built it may very well have been capable of similar slow surface-swimming behavior. I think we can use your references, but simply tone our statement down a bit, explaining that "although this species is capable of completely submerging, it usually swims slowly with its head held well above the surface and most of its body visible." We could also insert "... as opposed to most harmless water snakes..." -- a cautious formulation if you think it's necessary to make this comparison. Cheers, --Jwinius (talk) 03:04, 15 February 2009 (UTC)