User talk:LinguisticDemographer/Draft2

Thanks for the message and for taking the trouble to make this list. I don't have much time today, but I've made a draft version for the Gwynedd section here: Cantrefi and cymydau. I think I'll need to look over the list section by section.

Frankly the Red Book list is crazy in parts. I notice that Arfon, following the RB, is subdivided into "Is Conwy" and "Uwch Conwy". However the territory of Arfon has been clearly defined since earliest times as the heartland of mainland Gwynedd proper : it never has included land to the east of the River Conwy (or even on its west bank, strictly speaking). Clearly the RB compiler was thinking of Gwynedd Uwch Conwy (Gwynedd proper, to the west of - i.e. 'above' - the Conwy) and Gwynedd Is Conwy. There are other glaring errors. Two Dinmaels? No chance! There's only one, about which little is known, lying to the south of Denbighshire today; variously a lordship or cwmwd. The Anglesey list is misleading and inaccurate as well. Aberffraw was a cantref subdivided into two cymydau, for instance. There are many other instances. Perhaps the most glaring example is calling Eryri a cantref and giving it all those subdivisions.

As you say, a definitive and perfect list is almost impossible, but I really have serious doubts about the wisdom of basing our list on the Red Book list. I soon gave up on it over at cy. (and I've really neglected my work on the cantrefi and cymydau there as well - needs updating) as it is so full of contradictions, non-existent places, mis-located places (e.g. Uwch Conwy and Is Conwy) and even "doppelgangers" (there definitely is only one Dinmael and it's not in Llŷn by a long stretch).

Hopefully I'll get back to you on this over the next few days. There is no easy solution, short of giving up perhaps! Hwyl, Enaidmawr 15:56, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree entirely, except that I don't think giving up is an option! I was originally drawn into this when I found that the list had Dyfed cymydau assigned to the wrong cantrefi (these at least being well established): the obvious question one asks is "how much more is wrong here?" In going through the list, I have noticed several others that are mis-assigned, and in certain areas (e.g. Ceredigion, Elfael, Meilienydd) I have ignored the list and rearranged them. I suspect that many (perhaps all) the problems you mention have the same origin. I would suggest that, if we have some more reliable source (I was using Rees Historical Atlas of Wales, 1951) then we should base the finished list on that as a "snapshot" in time, and just use the Red Book list as a source for their "Middle Welsh" forms. Such a list, hedged around with caveats and provisos, would at least give us a skeleton upon which forther work can be hung. . . .LinguisticDemographer 21:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Back again rather late in the day, yet again. I've been spurred to work on the list at cy. by our discussion. Copied the Red Book list and placed it, with an introductory paragraph full of caveats, as a sort of appendix at the bottom of the page. I've also started to get a bit more order in my original "composite" list, and expanded it a bit : adding to the daunting amount of red links in there. I've been going through the Red Book list slowly, but it still needs work. Some omissions are obvious, but I'm dealing with it section by section and hopefully over the next few days or so might be as near to being finished as is possible for now. Maybe you could take a look? Also added interwiki links cantref+cwmwd here and on cy. By the way, there's an article on Cemais (Dyfed/Pembrokeshire) but as you probably know there are two cantrefs of that name, the other being in Anglesey. Suggest renaming the article and creating a disambiguation page. Finally, sources. Mine are pretty mixed. Rees is useful. Also various maps in standard histories (e.g. J. E. Lloyd, A. H. Williams; J. Beverley Smith's bio of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd also has good maps). What I do lack is a copy of Melville Richards invaluable Welsh administrative and territorial units. No copy in my local libraries and it's now fiendishly expensive second-hand, assuming you can find a copy (and it's not exactly a bulky volume either). Anyway, this is a long-term project which I'm doing in bursts. We're such a small crew on the Welsh wiki that we end up trying to cover "Life, the Universe and Everything," but hopefully this project will come together with time. Hwyl, Enaidmawr 00:00, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll fix the obvious errors in the southern end of the cy:list. I have moved "Cemais" to "Cemais (Dyfed cantref)": I'm not sure how to set up a disamb page, but in addition to the cantrefi, there's the village of Cemaes and Cemaes Bay in Anglesey, the parish of Cemmaes near Machynlleth, and "Kemeys" Commander and "Kemeys" Inferior in Gwent. Melville Richards' book is in the National Library so should be easy to get hold of. It's 324 pages. If you have no objection, I'll paste my list into "Cwmwd". Incidentally, while I've got you, I notice you put a statement (with reference Prys Morgan) in Night of the Long Knives (Arthurian) about a month back. How about moving it to Treachery of the Blue Books? It's a contentious statement, and it's pointless having a neutrality dispute about Welsh education in an article on Dark Ages history. . . .LinguisticDemographer 16:10, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]