User talk:Sarujo/Archive 7

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Transformers character pages

Your sample Megatron page looks really good to me - I'd pick it over the old G1 Megs page any day. I think the best option, though, is to only have articles on the "big four" Transformers characters - Optimus, Megatron, Bumblebee and Starscream - plus maybe Unicron, and have the articles cover all incarnations of the characters instead of one incarnation per page, similar to the pages on people like Batman and Spider-Man. Other Transformers pages could exist if enough relevant external references are available; if not, their names could redirect to a page like "List of Transformers character". In addition, the Transformers character infobox should be fixed to include more real-life information and a bit less in-universe information, similar to the comic character infoboxes. I tried working on a Megatron page myself, but couldn't finish because of my limited knowledge of Transformers. If people agree to this, then we could use your sample Megatron page as the info for G1 Megs, and just add similar information for the other incarnations. What do you think? --Eh! Steve (talk) 18:35, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

That's good to hear. Yet, as it stands, I still only see Prime holding the most nobility with Megatron coming in second. With the biggest nobility hooks being Prime's death and the whoas of marketing a gun form Megatron. Both Bumblebee and Starscream will need more to establish their nobility. Has there been any news articles on any of these characters written or any kind of critical response? The problem with my writeup is that a lot of people are not going to like it. For one they will argue why is the original animated series versions are getting more attention in their articles than the corresponding marvel comic series counterparts. My argument would be that it is belief that the original animated versions were "prime versions". Sure they have the same basis but virtually all the characters found in that comic series didn't appear until they debuted on the animated series. Also keep in mind that there have been no reports that a nation of children locked themselves in their closets after reading Prime's death in the marvel issue 24.

As for including all incarnations in the character articles, I would only feel comfortable with the inclusion other incarnations is if their life stories weren't written. There only needs to be an honorable mention and nothing more. There already exists corresponding other incarnations pages for the characters. They seem to include a lot of fancruft for each incarnation. Are you suggesting mergers for them? I would suggest getting rid of those pages and moving that stuff to appropriate character lists. You can get a character list to FA quicker than you can a character article.

What did you have in mind for the infoboxes?

Right now my version has a weak lead per Lead. Maybe I can come up something stronger. What do you think? Sarujo (talk) 22:46, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I was suggesting a merge - if the Batman page is about all incarnations of Batman, then why not Transformers? Anyway, from what I heard, the comics predated the animated series, and prioritizing one over the other might be a bit unfair. As for including all incarnations, I think your suggestion's good for the most part, but with a few adjustments:

• The "Megatron" article, for example, should be about the "Megatron" character in general, and mostly focuses on traits common to all incarnations, plus short blurbs about the various retellings of Megatron's story in the G1 continuity (the original version, comparable to the main continuity comics incarnation of Batman). Looking at the Batman article, I'd say the page should be formatted as follows:
  • Lead introducing the Megatron character in general, his appearances in G1, plus a short blurb about his appearances in other Transformers continuities (e.g. Megatron has appeared in a variety of other Transformers media, including as a primary antagonist in the live-action Transformers film series)
  • Development history of G1 Megatron
  • Fictional biographies of G1 Megatron
  • Cultural impact
  • In other continuities (here, include short blurbs on his other incarnations and their appearances in media, as well as some pictures, and noting major changes from G1 Megatron. Also, Beast Wars Megatron's inclusion here rather than on his separate article or a "list of Beast Wars characters" is debatable. As with Batman, this should be treated as the main page for all Megatron incarnations and all references to other versions of Megatron should link here, rather than a "Megatron (other incarnations)" or "List of Transformers Unicron Trilogy characters" page).

• If we keep the pages on the various incarnations separate, then the non-disambiguated pages (just plain ol' "Optimus Prime", etc.), out of fairness, should lead to disambiguation pages listing the various incarnations, as they do now. However, I'd say that merging and severely shortening the non-G1 biographies is a much better option; it's extremely difficult to decide how to treat the other incarnations and whether to consider them separate characters, so it seems best to follow the example set by the other superhero pages for simplicity's sake.

• For the infobox, I'd say to strip it down to the following:
  • Real-world information on each of the different continuity families the character has appeared in, as categorized by TFWiki, rather than each of the different G1 continuities
  • Real-world information on the various actors that portrayed the character (only list the Japanese voice actor for anime and original Japanese material, not for Western material)
  • The character's first appearance in fiction
  • The character's main factions in the various continuity families
  • The character's alternate modes in fiction (not including toy-only modes), very loosely categorized (so that "Walther P38" and "ray gun" are listed together as "handgun", and "Abrams" and "Cybertronian tank" are listed together as "tank", etc.)

• As for notability, I'd say that there are indeed a variety of reviews and stuff written on characters like BB and Starscream, especially their G1 and Movieverse incarnations (there's probably a ton of notes on Movie Bumblebee in mainstream publications), although I haven't done any intensive searching yet.

What do you think? I can probably talk about it more during the summer, after my school work's over --Eh! Steve (talk) 04:26, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Okay, you heard wrong. The original comic wasn't released before the original television series. Both comic and TV series were produced at the same time. They both premiered in September of 1984. The only thing I can come up with as to why so many people assume that the comic was first was that people take it for granted that a comic book always hits the shelves on the first of every month, and that's not always the case. When the Marvel series first went into publication, it was intended to a three issue mini series and that the animated series be the main continuity. And it's not being unfair when you are prioritizing the original medium. The very thing that got the whole lexicon ball rolling. It's not like I left out the comic series completely, I mentioned that he appeared in the corresponding Marvel comics series.

Wait, "only list the Japanese voice actor for anime and original Japanese material, not for Western material"?? Are you suggesting not to include English voice actors such as Peter Cullen, Frank Welker, Chris Latta, creators and such?? How much information of the original are you familiar with? Now that I think about, Why aren't Optimus, Megatron, etc not under the scope of the anime and manga project? The characters have appeared in the Japanese exclusive Scramble City, the corresponding exclusive mangas for the TV series in TV Magazine and Comic Bom Bom, the exclusive manga stories that extended the original Japanese continuity - mainly Operation Combination (not so much), Battlestars, The Stargate Battles. The original series' Kiss Players, Robot Masters, Henkei! Henkei!, Teletraan 15 Go! Go!, and PD Type. That's a lot of manga.

The Batman and Spider-man articles are not what I would call good examples as what to shoot for. They focus on both character and franchise aspects, as Batman and Spider-man are franchises. So that's why they include all of their other continuities. We need an example article who's subject is not that of a title character. Also, lets refrain from any ideas from any Wikia. Those two Wikias are full of fancruft and satirical jokes. Plus this might be redundant, but, when fishing for sources you must make good and sure that they all meet the criteria to be deemed a reliable source. Otherwise we're back at square one. In the case of character reflections in all three current films (yes, I'm including the 1986 film in the equation), I suggest starting with Rotten Tomatoes. Since they are an aggregated site and will include a listing of reviews from credible critics. On that note we may have enough to keep the Ultra Magnus article. By the way what is your stance on the heading for a character article for Hot Rod/Rodimus? Hot Rod or Rodimus?

Why don't you make a mock infobox with all your ideas and bring it here so I can get the full idea of your vision. Sarujo (talk) 15:27, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't know how to make infoboxes, I'll probably make one during the summer - unfortunately, I can't work on one right now since I have so much work to do. I might find time earlier, though, if I catch up on my schoolwork.

For the voice actors thing, that isn't what I meant! :P I meant only the American voice actor (and not the Japanese voice actor) for American material (such as G1, Beast Wars, Animated and the Movieverse), but list both the American and Japanese voice actors for Japanese material (such as the G1 spinoff anime, RiD and the Unicron Trilogy). Sometimes I'm not very clear in my ideas, so no wonder I end up saying the wrong things... sorry for the confusion.

For the Rodimus article, I'd suggest naming the article "Hot Rod (Transformers)", due to the fact that G1 Hot Rod is the only notable Transformers character to use exactly that name. "Rodimus" should maybe lead to a set index (like with Optimus/Megatron) where you can choose to either view "Rodimus Prime" or Rodimus (other incarnations).

As for merging/renaming pages in general, the entire business is really confusing. Perhaps the best option is to save the trouble and just leave the pages as they are, without any renaming/merging/etc., and clean up the articles one at a time (possibly creating separate articles for the Movieverse characters if they become long enough and have enough relevant sources, and deleting the Transformers articles that Wikipedia doesn't really need, such as Poison Bite). If we must merge/rename, though, I have a bunch of suggestions - since I deleted them from this talk page, they're in the page's history. --Eh! Steve (talk) 16:18, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Long enough? Length shouldn't really be the focus, it the real world content. The development and the reception. Sorry if I'm repeating myself. This might be apples and oranges, but maybe looking at one the Dragon Ball character articles might help out some for direction. I have been working on them. Sarujo (talk) 19:19, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, my bad. Some time later I might try looking for sources from Rotten Tomatoes and similar sites to help find relevant sources for the Movie characters to have their own pages - for sure, they'd have lots of stuff on Prime and Bumblebee, but I'm not so sure about Megatron and Starscream (though Megs is a bit more likely). I'll start work on a Movie Megs page here. --Eh! Steve (talk) 04:01, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Here's is a little bit of nobility I ran across for Megatron. [1] Sarujo (talk) 06:37, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Goku's voice actors

What do you mean "There was nothing in that discussion that suggested that the section be converted into a table"? Yes there was. Please look at it again.. Linkdude20002001 (talk) 18:25, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Exactly what I said there is nothing in that discussion that suggested to you, "hey there no need to source any of the voice actors, and go remove the paragraph and put a big redundant table in it's place". The paragraph is way more encyclopedic that that table. Either way without any reliable sources your attempts pointless right now. I for one question some of the claims made of certain voice actors portrayals of Goku. Like Barbara Goodson for example, her official website does not give any mention of her role as Zero, but she seem to have listed everything else she has been involved in Power Rangers, FLCL, meow meow meow. The same goes for the Harmony Gold official website. They list other projects but not Dragon Ball or Dr Slump. Sarujo (talk) 19:13, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you in that the validity of Barbara Goodson is disputable. I'll try to contact her and ask, but there'd still be no way of siting such a source. And the reason it's not listed that they dubbed Dragon Ball or Dr Slump is because they only did a few pilot episodes. It wasn't a true dubbing of the series, just a test.

And my appologies for not re-including the citations in the tatble; I forgot. They don't seem to be very good citatons, though...

And here's a quote from the discussion: "Because there are so many it may be okay to actually create a table for them and list the VAs there. Having 8+ VAs in a row for Goku doesn't exactly make for smooth flowing or engaging prose." Linkdude20002001 (talk) 19:51, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

My apologies, I just now found it. Yet, it was only a mere suggestion.

Look, if your fishing for reliable source from these actors and bigwigs, then you need to at least ask them to make be post their information on like their official website or blog. Or even better, try and find an interview with the actor, director, or producer.

You can't say that the Harmony Gold dub wasn't a true dubbing. That would be like saying that Pryde of the X-Men wasn't an official X-Men story.

Again I stick with my statement that the table is encyclopedic. There need to be more than just a bunch of names for this section. I will admit that the current sources are too vague, yet they will have to do until I can think of the best method to source them. Sarujo (talk) 21:11, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, I thought it was a good suggestion. But either way, the sources need to be better and the paragraphs need to written better. It inconsistantly says things like "The Ocean Group dub" for Westwood Media's dub of DBZ, and then "the Blue Water dub" for Westwood Media's dub of DB (which had it's ADR work done by The Ocean Group). It shouldn't say a dub was made by the recording studio, it should say it was made by the company that actually had control over its production (and maybe the ADR company). But it'll be hard to write it so people can understand it. It's basically a tangled web.

Harmony Gold refuses to answer my questions or even reply. And there aren't any interviews... I'll try contacting Goodson. And I'll see if Ramirez will be willing to write a little blog mentioning he voiced Gokuh.

I meant it wasn't concidered a real dub (as in actually existing) by Harmony Gold. I consider it real, but they won't acknolege it. Linkdude20002001 (talk) 21:37, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Transformers: History Of Music 1984-1990

Hi I see you created the page on Transformers: History Of Music 1984-1990...

We have a related page on Discogs music database, I think it was created from your Wikipedia entry? Here is the link http://www.discogs.com/Various-Transformers-History-Of-Music-1984-1990/release/1830292

When you have time, would you mind taking a look to see if the Discogs entry is correct? If you have the CD set and you can compare them, that would be ideal!

If you have any revisions you can PM me here and I will update the entry.

Regards SteveDavey (talk) 21:34, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Dragon Ball Kai's Episode Titles

How exactly do I source the official episode titles? And why do I have to do it in the first place? The other Dragon Ball series don't need them. And by the way, I got the official titles from FUNimation's Blu-ray release. Linkdude20002001 (talk) 02:19, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually, they do. other stuff exists is not a valid argument. You lost me, what blue-ray are you talking about? Sarujo (talk) 03:33, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Well I've never had this problem correcting the other Dragon Ball series' episode titles. And I'm talking about FUNimation's Blu-ray release of Dragon Ball Kai. I went through, episode by episode, and wrote down the translation used in the subtitles, and for the dub's titles, I just copied it from the inside of the case (they were conveniently written out for me).Linkdude20002001 (talk) 04:44, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and "other stuff exists" can be a valid argument. And in this case, it would appear to be one. I can understand how my argument would not be valid if I had mentioned some other show, but what I mentioned technically is the same show in some ways. Dragon Ball (Z) Kai is just Dragon Ball Z with new music and new voice acting; the drawings are at least 95% the same.Linkdude20002001 (talk) 06:12, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

You are missing the point here. Just because two article subjects have a lot of the same stuff doesn't give license to use mirror every aspect of the article. Sure, it's often the case that we use other articles as inspiration for other inexperienced editors who get confused at the rules and guidelines and need help building a great article on a subject. Only then do we use GA and FA articles as examples, and if I'm not mistaken, none of the Dragon Ball articles and lists have achieved either status. I wonder why, hmmm, maybe it's because they lack proper sources for their claims in places they need it the most. The episode titles need sources, the broadcast dates need sources, heck a source is needed for the entry on the new closing song. These things need to be sourced so that keep others from challenging that the information that was added is false. That's why I reiterate that "other stuff exists", I like many other are trying to keep the article from losing it's current rating, and adding unsourced information isn't helping this article any. Sarujo (talk) 23:09, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Then could you please explain to me how to reference the source of the official episode titles? Or at least show me a page that provides sources for episode titles? I could figure it out if I were to actually see it being done.Linkdude20002001 (talk) 17:43, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

It appears that you didn't need me to tell you after all. Yet I have one gripe over this. There really isn't any need to feature a dub title if it's identical to the original translation provided here. Just only add the ones that are different than the featured translations, otherwise it's just redundant. Sarujo (talk) 04:54, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

The way I sourced it is different then how I actually wanted to do it, but no choice since I couldn't figure out how to cite episode titles taken from within the episode. If how I did it is actually good enough, then alleluia! Hahaha. I agree with the redundancy. I only put them all in because I figured people would complain if I didn't. Wait... I just remembered my other reason. FUNi's dub titles are technically all different from the translations. They add exclamation marks to their titles that don't exist in the original title, so claiming the title FUNi uses is the same as the translation is kinda false info. Then again, it's the words that are most important, right? What do you think?Linkdude20002001 (talk) 19:23, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Greetings

Hello, I am Brolythelegend from the Dragon Ball wiki, I wanted to ask about your image for the multiple appearances of Vegeta on his article on Wikipedia and know your source. It is a very nice quality image and I wanted to know if it was not fan art. Could you leave me a message on my talk page here, Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.145.14.215 (talk) 03:46, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

From my understanding it along with a few other infobox images here was from an official Dragon ball calender. I do not believe them to be derivative fan art or otherwise I wouldn't have uploaded them. Kinda offended really. Sarujo (talk) 06:26, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't get offended... This is someone from Dragon Ball Wikia, after all. A horrid place, it is; chock full of made up information and old rumors. That, and the fact that the grammar and wording is ridiculously terrible, lead me to believe it was written by a bunch of nine-year-olds. No use letting what a nine-year-old says bother you.Linkdude20002001 (talk) 05:15, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Saiyan (Dragon Ball)

Hey there Sarujo. Did you know about this? I thought it was agreed to keep the old Saiyan article as a merge. So, what do you know? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 21:24, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, it appears that there was no evidence that article was ever merged. It also seems that we has another case of submarine action here, as the editors failed to add a link to the template. Maybe the Anime and Manga project should be informed about the matter. Sarujo (talk) 01:09, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Guess they should be aware. Sorry about the double posting [2], I didn't even realize that the hit the save button one too many times. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 01:37, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

That's okay, it happens to use all. Sarujo (talk) 01:40, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Another thing, why does the title contain Dragon Ball in parenthesis? It's not a common word. Sarujo (talk) 01:42, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I see that in alot of articles. Truth be told, I kinda stopped caring about page move issues (my real-life troubles keep me more preoccupied anyway). Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 21:55, 17 June 2010 (UTC)