User talk:Yt95/C& Notes

Some observations

A problem I see relates to the use of the word "pacifism". Some writers seem to be using it in a narrow sense such as war between nations, whilst others use it when relating to various forms of conditional pacifism such as nuclear, unjust wars, and so on, and yet again others are using it when rejecting all forms of violence. The trouble is they do not state explicitely and its left to the reader to guess what they are trying to say.

Another big assumption by many of these writers is the anachronistic use of the word Church to denote a monolithic structure that encompases all early Christians when that is clearly not the case, i.e there many different sects in the early Christian communities, some of quite considerable size, and its patently not correct to assume that all shared exactly the same beliefs, but that is the way Roland Bainton (perhaps the most notable source for the Christian pacifist issue) treats early Christianity. At the present time I think the best way forward is to avoid general declarations of pacifism whenever possible, save when the authors makes it perfectly clear what they mean, and simply put down the source data the authors are using and their conclusions based on that data. ma'at (talk) 15:55, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Further reference material

According to Archie Penner the two most valuable sources are Adolf Harnack and C. John Cadoux. I see Harnack is referenced but not Cadoux. Harnack even said that Cadoux's work was the "authoritative conclusion of the investigations made on this matter". His book is available at The Early Christian Attitude to War (original version). Nirvana2013 (talk) 17:10, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, much appreciated! I don't have a home internet connection so adding material from this book might take a bit of time, but my first impressions are that it is indeed a valuable resource and worth putting in the effort. ma'at (talk) 10:23, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Do you think some of your good work could be used to expand the Christian pacifism article (may require new structure)? Further work could placed on a new article linked from Christian_pacifism#Early_Church and Christianity_and_violence#Pacifism_in_early_Christianity. Should this new article be titled Early Christianity and pacifism or Early Christianity and violence? Nirvana2013 (talk) 13:28, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for late reply. Perhaps a paragraph in the Christian pacifism article could indicate that the subject of pacifism and the early Church is subject to debate with a link to any new article. As for the title of the new article I'm less sure but favour Early Christianity and pacifism because I happen to have more material which mentions pacifism, though the "violence" alternative you give is just a different perspective/emphasis/flip side of the same coin issue. From what I can tell historians of the period don't normally use the word pacifism when dealing with early Christianity but modern scholars from other disciplines do. As for the existing article I think it should really deal with the history of Christian pacifism rather than proof texting early Christian writers to show what is not generally agreed, i.e that early Christianity was a pacifist movement. ma'at (talk) 12:30, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I too am happy with Early Christianity and pacifism as the new article title. It looks like you have enough material to start the article. Shall I start it now? Nirvana2013 (talk) 19:10, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

This too looks interesting From Missionary to Mercenary: How the Church Went from Pacifism to Militancy and Why It Should Return (2005) by Alvin L. Carpenter.[1] Nirvana2013 (talk) 13:43, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. Because I'm using a public library it may be some time before I can get to this but if you are already familiar with the book, and you think there is something in it that isn't already covered, then how about just adding it to the notes page. I also forgot to mention that when I was editing the notes page months ago I was taking a downloaded copy of the page to edit at home at night and then updating the page the next day. If you made any edits meantime I tried to pick them up and make the required changes before saving the page but if I screwed up any of your text then please add it back in - it wasn't deliberate. Yt95 (talk) 12:43, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Started article stub at Early Christianity and pacifism. Nirvana2013 (talk) 11:37, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. Good luck and if you need any help with verification of citations then just ask. Watch out though for any text in the rough notes which is clearly my own pov and meant as an aid to memory for further research. Yt95 (talk) 14:34, 2 October 2011 (UTC)