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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Rename, though I must say that the name is wholly incomprehensible to someone unfamiliar with the topic. Good Ol’factory(talk) 22:54, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Seljuk Sultanate of Rûm and Turkish beyliks[edit]
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:delete as obsolete. This category is empty and has been listed for deletion for that reason. The name is also unnecessarily confusing as noted below. We have Category:Sultanate of Rûm and Category:Anatolian beyliks for articles that want to go in here.--Mike Selinker (talk) 08:27, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale:Rename. The term "Sultanate of Rum" is as pertinent in our day as the term Indian Territories is for the American Midwest. Furthermore, the name for the category has a faulty logic in ascribing the term "Seljuk" to both the sultanate and the principalities (Beyliks). Each had dynasties from different backgrounds, Beyliks were dependent on or independent from the Sultanate in varying degrees in each case and each evolving in time. What these had in common was that all, Seljuk Sultanate and Turkish Beyliks, were located in "Anatolia". There were other Seljuk sultanates and other Turkish Beyliks elsewhere. Cretanforever (talk) 08:22, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose move on the two grounds: 1) "Sultanate of Rum" is by no means obsolete nomenclature. Turkish nationalists, for whatever reason, are uncomfortable with the term Rûm. Turkish historical pedagogy has followed the nationalists in this regard so that Turkish textbooks almost invariably now refer to the people as Anadolu Selçukları or "Anatolian Seljuks". On the other hand, English and other Western European scholarship refers to them as the Seljuks or Seljuqs of Rum. I have seen recently published bilingual books on the subject where the Turkish text reads Anadolu Selçukları and the English reads Seljuqs of Rum (ref. upon request). According to WP:UE, we need to use the commonly accepted English language name which in this case certainly includes the word Rûm. Added to this is the fact that the Seljuqs themselves were not ashamed to call the land they ruled Rûm.
2) In the name of this category, the adjective "Seljuk" clearly does not modify "Turkish Beyliks". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aramgar (talk • contribs)
Oppose, I see no viable reason for the change. When placed in quotations "Anatolian Seljuk Sultanate" gets 17 hits on google books[1], whereas "Seljuk Sultanate of Rum" gets 737 hits[2]. So the theory of faulty logic is in itself a fallacy. In a side note, I've noticed an increase in removal(and change) of categories by nationalistic editors. Clearly this is an attempt to removed information found unpalatable and in most cases, to reflect the policies and agenda of a nationalistic Turkish POV. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:21, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
