Talk:Assyrians in the Netherlands

Mor Ephrem Monastery

I removed the mentioning of Mor Ephrem Monastery as the "first Assyrian monastery in Europe". The monastery's web site speaks of Aramaeans and Syro-Aramaeans, not of Assyrians! --Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 18:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Nice try. Assyrians of Syriac Orthodox go to this monastery and establish it as their monastery. You dont like it, go tell them they dont belong their. The sources are on the buttom of the page. Chaldean 03:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I see nothing like that on the links you provided. And still, there are no sources, except for assyrianist websites. --Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 06:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

"assyrianist" websites are providing information about the culture of the Assyrians in holland. Their is nothing contriversial that is being stated that needs specific source. Chaldean 13:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems to be the same story happening again. A significant proportion of the people who are meant to be included in this article choose to call themsleves Aramaean in preference to Assyrian. The monastery's own website is very clearly Aramaeanist and contains direct links to http://www.aramnaharaim.org/ (a strongly Aramaeanist website based in the Netherlands). I think it would be more accurate for this article to talk about Assyrians and Aramaeans in the Netherlands because that is the reality — yes, it's not a nice reality, and yes, it does belittle the people. The situation may be different in the US Mid-West, but that's not what this article is about. This isn't ethnic, ecclesiastical or geographical. This is purely political: whole families in Europe are divided bitterly on this issue. However, unlikeable the situation it should be documented without bias to one group or the other. Calling a monastery Assyrian when it clearly calls itself Aramaean is biased, I'm afraid. — Gareth Hughes 15:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the sentenced was bad worded, but the point is Syriac Orthodox who call themselves Assyrians go to this monastery and consider it as one of their own. As for the offical website; how do we not know the monastery itself isn't splite as well? For all we know the guy who created the website could be a aramean extremist even thou the monastery itself doesn't share his view. In any ways, months ago some person created Aramaeans in the Netherlands. Chaldean 16:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, so now there are links between both articles. Something that neither group will like, but at least demonstrates the two points of view in seperate articles. — Gareth Hughes 16:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopedia worthy?

Is this article really encyclopedia worthy? Really? An article about Suryoye in the Netherlands? Isn't it better to just throw all the articles about Assyrians in the Netherlands, Germany, Sweden etc. into the page Assyrian people? Michaelovic (talk) 21:01, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

BTW, the article is full of errors like:

The Assyrians have integrated well into the Dutch culture, and thus do not attract negative press coverage like other immigrant groups. While the Netherlands does not take an ethnic census, the number of Assyrians is estimated to be between the 25,000 and 35,000.

First of all: Like any other race of culture, even Syriacs has rotten appels in their trees. The claim that they do not attract negative coverage therefore isn't true. See this newspaper article for evidence. The article speaks about the Syriac youth in the South of Enschede who are involved in criminal activities. Conform recent police reports, 70% of the criminal activities in the South of Enschede are the Syriacs to blaim.

Second of all: 25,000 to 35,000 is alot. No source could verify this. The real number is estimated to be between the 15,000 and 20,000. See for evidence: aaaaallll the way below. Thank you, Michaelovic (talk) 20:14, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Image + Arameans (Syriacs)

As first I want to say the picture of the protest isn't in the Netherlands! As you can read some words on the banners! --> Turquie, Le <-- For example.. So its in France. Second the people here in the Netherlands are mostly known as Arameans (Syriacs)! I had contact with alot of newswebsites/papers/televisions they also admitted that they use the word Arameans more in the news! When u will visit The Netherlands you almost won't see someone calling him/herself Assyrian. The page name should be changed! And the source of the Assyrian population doesn't even show that there are 60.000 Assyrians here! And there are never more than 1000 Assyrians here, but there are 30.000 Arameans and yes i do have a source And not only this one but alot of more of this kind pages! — Preceding unsigned comment added by GabrielOromoy (talk • contribs) 20:13, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Move title?

Doesn't the title of the page needs to be moved to Arameans in the Netherlands? The Dutch-Wikipedia uses Arameeërs =(Arameans) as COMMON NAME see: (WP:COMMONNAME) nor do I see any sourced content. Maybe you can help Buidhe?

Reldex (talk) 00:35, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

It should be WP:CONSISTENT with the article on Assyrian people. (t · c) buidhe 00:39, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Wow, that was a fast reply Buidhe, haha! I actually don't think it has anything to do with consistency. Please see, Arameans in Israel and Assyrians in Israel (2 several pages)). Also German Assyrians is being named as Aramäer in Germany on the German Wikipedia and for Sweden Assyrians/Syriacs in Sweden is being used, so there actually is no consistency in the titles here. Reldex (talk) 00:50, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Just because the consistency (counting enwiki articles only, what other wikis do is none of our concern) currently leaves something to be desired does not mean that we should make inconsistent articles. RS agree that the people called "Arameans" and "Assyrians" are the same ethnic group and "Assyrians" is the WP:COMMONNAME. I agree it makes no sense to have two duplicate articles on Assyrians in Israel. (t · c) buidhe 00:55, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Buidhe, The groups can not be counted as the same people. That is why I am referring to each having own pages. For example Israel did recognize the Arameans apart from the Assyrians as an ethnic ethnicity, Assyrians don't share this part nor do they share the same history regarding to Israel, so the pages are not duplicates and need to stay seperated. Also note that these 2 groups are recognized seperately of eachother by the govs. of for example Iraq, The Netherlands or Germany. When I re-edit this article and add a source of the Aramean population it excludes the Assyrians because they are not counted as the same in that country and vice-versa ofcourse. So can you agree on both pages having divided pages regarding the countries they live in? Reldex (talk) 01:03, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Reldex, No, you would have to get consensus for that. I doubt you would because RS say that the words "Aramean" and "Assyrian" refer to the same ethnic group, eg.[1] (t · c) buidhe 01:19, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Buidhe, I have digged in into these nations recently. These groups don't identify under the same name for a long time anymore according to RS. Compare it to Kosovo and Albanians. They ETHNICALLY are the same nations, however they have grown apart from eachother with an own history, flag etc. The same happened with the Assyrians and Arameans. It's wrong to identify one of the groups with which they don't consider themselves. Do you maybe know if it's possible to open an umbrella RFC on this theme? So it can be widely solved on Wiki. Reldex (talk) 01:30, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

You would need to have a talk at Talk:Assyrian people. (However, Kosovars ARE ethnic Albanians; that's why the article about them is titled Albanians of Kosovo!) (t · c) buidhe 03:09, 21 May 2021 (UTC)