Talk:Black bloc/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Fascist Group

In some countries it's rather a fascist group.

That's a more recent development, and follows the tendency of new far-right movements to adopt certain forms and tactics from far-left groups. Sindinero (talk) 14:07, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

HerculesRio's edits

HerculesRio only edits the Black Bloc article and his only edits are to remove referenced information about police informants and replace it with an unreferenced statement about "Black Bloc protesters target banks and other commercial establishments, causing considerable property damage." I have reverted it each time and replaced the referenced content but it is getting annoying to have to keep an eye on this. Three times now he has pulled it out with the edit summary of "Removed unfounded accusations against the police. Added statement on the property damage caused by demonstrators". The information is referenced so it is hardly "unfounded". Anarcham (talk) 17:01, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

This is becoming very tiresome. Even after Leutha reworded that section, HerculesRio returned and blanked it out again this time adding even more unreferenced statements about property damage. Anarcham (talk) 21:31, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Wording

"Black blocs are sometimes misunderstood by press as a single membership organization"

What is a "single membership organization?" Please change this to a link to a Wikipedia article explaining what you mean by this type of organization. For instance, as opposed to a "multiple membership organization?" Thanks68.190.23.42 (talk) 20:26, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

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Tactics

I checked two of the three sources under Tactics (the third 404'd) and they seem to portray the main thrust of tactics as confrontation and violence, as opposed to defensive actions as is stated in the article. I'm going to adjust that to better match the sources. 71.11.1.204 (talk) 22:30, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

"Left-wing fascists"

How is this organisation or whatever it is simultaneously left-wing, fascist and anarchist at the same time? I mean, like, surely at least one of those things must be wrong. 1.132.97.38 (talk) 05:29, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

No, nothing in the article supports the claim in the intro that this is a tactic used by "left-wing fascists", much less "left-wing fascist organizations". To the extent that it's used by radical leftists, fascists, and anarchists alike, this still doesn't support the use of the phrase "left-wing fascist organizations." 73.110.37.206 (talk) 08:19, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

They're only anarchist in the sense they want to smash the current order. They expect to control what replaces it. The left, whether fascist or socialist, is always about control. The right, at least in the US, is always about individual liberty and constitutionalism. 67.4.213.180 (talk) 16:16, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

You're entitled to your own political opinions, but that's not supported by the sources or even a widely accepted usage of the terms in question. Putting it in this article clearly violates NPOV. Miketaba (talk) 01:03, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
This POV obfuscates clearly authoritarian attitudes on the "right" as can be observed among more hard-line nationalists who do not care for these principles.
Anyway, Wikipedia articles are based on reliable sources so opinions have no place here. --JamesPoulson (talk) 01:11, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

A black bloc is a tactic...?

No, it's much more than that.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:00, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

What would you want us to call it? Certainly can't call it an "event" and we can't call it an organisation. Perhaps, with your wide range of nomenclature, you could assist. --wh1ter0se (talk) 14:49, 21 January 2017 (GMT)

I would say "black bloc is a name given to groups who..." To some extent it might be a media creation, but it is associated with anarchists.--Jack Upland (talk) 11:39, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
Group, movement or phenomenon? --JamesPoulson (talk) 01:04, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
The LA Times has twice called black bloc "Self described anarchists" but when clicking on the link in one of their articles, it simply links to another article where they make the exact same assertion, themselves.
I began searching for a reference as such, and have come up empty. When I come here I see that they are "often associated with anarchism." but this again lacks proper citation.
Is this a reference to the fact that the claim is often being made frequently by outside sources? This seems like more of a demonstration tactic, or violent take on flash mobs than an organized movement espousing the virtues of anarchy.Jeffman12 (talk) 01:11, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
The article is full of references to anarchists and autonomists. Why don't you read it?--Jack Upland (talk) 05:37, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

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Wrong content

"Since the "Battle of Rostock", traditional "May Day Riots" after demonstrations every 1 May in Berlin, and since 2008 also in Hamburg, became more intense, and violence of the autonomen against police officers and political enemies at demonstrations of radical left groups have dramatically increased."

This content is just not in the source, which is mentioned in the article: http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-78832416.html

And about the injuries during the G8 in Rostock, you can find other numbers here: http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/g8-gipfel/rostock-krawalle_aid_62405.html

What does the source say? What do you suggest we write instead? El_C 09:19, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
"According to the German Verfassungsschutz, the weeks of organization before the demonstration and the riots themselves were amounted to a revival for the militant left in Germany. From 2005 to 2010 the left wing people who use violence grew on 20 percent. All in all the office counted 6800 people."

That's all, the rest is simply not true and actually since the 80s there were massive riots during the first may in Berlin. E.g. see the article here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Day_in_Kreuzberg Btw., the police itself actually revised later the number of injured police men.

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Violence against persons and counter demonstrators:

I find it odd that this article seems to downplay or not even mention attacks of the blac bloc on individuals, instead focusing almost entirely on property damage. For example, in the entry on Milo's Berkely event, there's no mention of the violence against the individuals there. We have lots of videos of attacks on woman wearing a "make bitcoing great again" hat as well as video of a man being beaten possibly unconscious in the street. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BZvhYkB4xo

http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/08/female-trump-supporter-sues-for-23-million-after-berkeley-rioter-mauled-her-with-pepper-spray/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSMKGRyWKas

I think these are relevant things to discuss.

These things require reliable sources though.

EvergreenFir (talk) 05:47, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Okay, here's CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/01/us/milo-yiannopoulos-berkeley/index.html

I don't see how my other sources aren't "reliable." It's literally video from the event and an article from another news source.

Maybe you should read Wikipedia's guidelines, then. 2601:87:4400:AF2:5D0E:ECC3:1B09:6D44 (talk) 01:19, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

As is clear from the article the black bloc has a long and global history. Whereas those incidents are relatively recent and all occurred in the US. What we really need is a secondary source showing how common different types of incidents are during black bloc style marches. After all, we can't make any general conclusions from incidents where the participants just happened to be dressed in black. Otherwise the black bloc would have to claim responsibility for most bank robberies too!! There must be some research or journalism on this we can reference? 92.238.191.177 (talk) 05:48, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Antifa

I'm using the Black bloc talk page to discuss antifa because two editors in particular have erased my content. I don't understand the dilemma. I think it entirely appropriate to link black bloc with antifa, and I wish to gain consensus.

I think it healthy to have a dialog, since my copy has been entirely erased and I feel without merit. I carefully crafted a neutral tone in a paragraph that discussed black blocs and media attention, and so the sentence is relevant in context. Mercury News is the citation, and it’s a valid source that makes the connection of antifa and black bloc.

Proposed copy: “The Antifa activist look generally is black bloc. Antifa activists may wear black clad clothing characterized by black hoodies, balaclavas, ski masks, gloves, gas masks or goggles or sunglasses, black work or military boots and gloves. Some may carry makeshift shields, staffs or flags to show cohesion. Some may also use black bloc to hide their identities.”

I used qualifiers (generally and some). As well I cited four news sources: https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/unmasking-antifa-anti-fascists-hard-left/index.html https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/09/03/antifa-berkeley-protest-trump-coulter https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/29/style/black-bloc-fashion.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/06/05/in-portland-images-of-knives-brass-knuckles-bricks-show-viciousness-of-protests/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ff42b5d7d84a

Any objections? If I don't hear any objections then I will insert the material. Cheers! SDSU-Prepper (talk) 03:10, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

No objections here. "the black bloc is part of the longstanding visual language of international anti-fascism, or antifa." https://www.thenation.com/article/if-you-appreciated-seeing-neo-nazi-richard-spencer-get-punched-thank-the-black-bloc/ This article is already cited in the Black Bloc wiki article. Mbsyl (talk) 15:14, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
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