Talk:Dallewalia Misl

This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia articles

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article is supported by WikiProject Haryana (assessed as Low-importance).

This article is supported by the Indian history workgroup (assessed as Low-importance).

More information:
/
	This article has been marked as needing an infobox.
	This article was last assessed in May 2012.
	An editor has requested that an image or photograph be added to this article.

Sikhism

This article is part of WikiProject Sikhism, an attempt to promote better coordination, content distribution, and cross-referencing between pages dealing with Sikhism. Please participate by editing the article, or visit the project page for more details on the projects.

Guidelines: Manual of Style - Naming conventionsSikhismWikipedia:WikiProject SikhismTemplate:WikiProject SikhismSikhism articles

Caste[edit]

http://www.apnaorg.com/books/english/history-princep-1/book.php?fldr=book page 198

Gulab Singh Rathore is the founder of Dallewalia Misl as per all well known authors on the subject. Abh9850.

The edit is well sourced, we can discuss the matter here brother Abh9850. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.214.147.243 (talk) 22:50, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, the edit is unsourced. You mentioned Hari Ram Gupta saying he is a Rathore, this is false. Check here– https://books.google.co.in/books?id=S1wwAQAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=gulaba

"The founder of this misl was Gulaba Khatri"

Further, – Dhawan, Purnima (2011). When Sparrows Became Hawks, The Making of the Sikh Warrior Tradition, 1699–1799. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-975655-1. on page 62, table 2 calls Gulaba a Khatri Misl Leader of Dallewalia Misl

Furthermore, Singh, Surinder Pal (2009). History Of Sikh Misls. p. 149 also says the same.

In addition, http://apnaorg.com/books/english/history-princep-1/book.php?fldr=book page 198 here does not even mention Rathore Rajput or Gulaba once. Unsourced again.

He is not called a Rathore even once, your claim is entirely unsourced and you're engaging in vandalism. Any further edits will lead to your account being reported.

Abh9850 (talk) 09:39, 27 September 2020 (UTC) Tagging you as this user is engaging in repeated vandalism. Fylindfotberserk[reply]

Well, the this source does mention "Gulaba Khatri". I couldn't find "Gulab Singh Rathore" in page 198 here though. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:51, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You do not seem to be intent on discussing this, I have already pointed out how your sources are incorrect. Abh9850 (talk) 20:34, 27 September 2020 (UTC) (talk)[reply]

What shall be done to report a user engaging in malicious edits? Abh9850 (talk) 20:45, 27 September 2020 (UTC) Fylindfotberserk I have provided 3 sources, and clarified how the source provided by the anonymous IP account doesnt even have the word "rathore" in it.[reply]

I am pasting the link of the book here by renowned Sikh historian Hari Ram Gupta-

https://archive.org/details/HistoryOfTheSikhsVol.IvTheSikhCommonwealthOrRiseAndFallOfSikh

You can go to page number 65 and line number 2. It’s clearly mentioned the Dallewalia Misl founder’s Full name as “Gulab Singh Rathor”. Also renowned Indologist Lepel Griffin mentions the founders full name as “Gulab Singh Rathor”. If need be that link of book can also be pasted. Khatri in punjabi and Prakrit language is the alternate word for Kshatriya. Rathores are well known Rajput/Kshatriya class of Indian subcontinent. So dear Abh9850, kindly check the references properly before reverting properly sourced information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.253.165.236 (talk) 21:19, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong, there is not a single mention of the word Rathore in Hari Ram Gupta's book. Check for yourself–– https://archive.org/details/HistoryOfTheSikhsVol.IvTheSikhCommonwealthOrRiseAndFallOfSikh/page/n3/mode/2up?q=rathore click this. Zero results

Khatri are a different caste–– Rajputs are a different caste. At this point, I am convinced you are blatantly engaging in malicious activity to push your agenda. Abh9850 (talk) 21:36, 27 September 2020 (UTC) Fylindfotberserk Please look into this.[reply]

Here is all the evidence from the book you linked listed out:

Page 64: "The founder of this Misl was Gulaba Khatri, son of Sharada Ram" https://archive.org/details/HistoryOfTheSikhsVol.IvTheSikhCommonwealthOrRiseAndFallOfSikh/page/n63/mode/2up

Page 26: "Eight misls were founded by Jats, one by a Khatri, one by a Kalal, one by a carpenter" https://archive.org/details/HistoryOfTheSikhsVol.IvTheSikhCommonwealthOrRiseAndFallOfSikh/page/n25/mode/2up

There is zero mention of a "Rajput" by the name of Gulaba in this entire book. Abh9850 (talk) 21:48, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

124.253.165.236 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abh9850 (talk • contribs) 21:51, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Page 26: https://archive.org/details/HistoryOfTheSikhsVol.IvTheSikhCommonwealthOrRiseAndFallOfSikh/page/n25/mode/2up

Not a single misl was founded by a "Gulaba Rajput" , they were either Jat, Khatri or Kalal.

Abh9850 (talk) 21:54, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly you have not read the references and vandalised. I am pasting the link here again -

https://archive.org/details/HistoryOfTheSikhsVol.IvTheSikhCommonwealthOrRiseAndFallOfSikh

Read chapter 3 (dallewalia Misl) page 65 line 2, you will find founder’s full name as “GULAB SINGH RATHOR”.

What’s the problem in accepting the fact. Lepel Griffin in Panjab Chiefs mentions same. Khatri is not necessarily caste, it’s punjabi language word for Kshatriya (warrior). This can be cross checked either. Rathore are well known Kshatriya/Khatri of Indian subcontinent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.253.165.236 (talk) 22:01, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong on all counts. First, chapter 3 says "The Sikhs started calling him Gulab Rathor" –– the word Rajput is not mentioned in the book even once. Chapter 3 says "He was born Gulab Khatri" , Page 26 says, there was not a single Rajput misl.

Further, there are 2 more sources on this–– which I linked above. All those sources call him a Khatri. Not a Rathore Rajput. Check– Further, – Dhawan, Purnima (2011). When Sparrows Became Hawks, The Making of the Sikh Warrior Tradition, 1699–1799. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-975655-1. on page 62, table 2 calls Gulaba a Khatri Misl Leader of Dallewalia Misl

Furthermore, Singh, Surinder Pal (2009). History Of Sikh Misls. p. 149 also says the same.

Further, Khatri and Rajput are different castes. You cannot just call someone Rajput unless it is mentioned he is a Rajput. Do you understand? WP:NOR Please read this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research Abh9850 (talk) 22:06, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am not mentioning “Rajput” at all. I am retaining the full name of the Misl’s founder as “GULAB SINGH RATHOR”. I am not a caste warrior like you. And what is preventing you to read page 65 of the provided reference. https://archive.org/details/HistoryOfTheSikhsVol.IvTheSikhCommonwealthOrRiseAndFallOfSikh

Please don’t vandalise now. It’s mentioned as GULAB SINGH RATHOR, so it’s well sourced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.253.165.236 (talk) 22:09, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Except, this is NOT the full name of the Misl's founder. The full name is Gulab Singh Khatri. I provided 3 sources. You provided one source which said "The Sikhs started calling him Gulab Rahor" –– It doesn't mean he was born a "Rathore" Do you understand this? It is a title

You could have added this in the article, instead you did not. Abh9850 (talk) 22:12, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The page 65 of reference (https://archive.org/details/HistoryOfTheSikhsVol.IvTheSikhCommonwealthOrRiseAndFallOfSikh)

Mentions the full name as GULAB SINGH RATHOR. Which you are concocting as rahor. Show me single mention line no and page no where Gulab Singh Khatri is written.

Holy lord what sort of people you are, lying straight away and vandalising articles on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.253.165.236 (talk) 22:16, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I already showed you 3 sources. Why are you not reading them? https://archive.org/details/HistoryOfTheSikhsVol.IvTheSikhCommonwealthOrRiseAndFallOfSikh/page/n63/mode/2up

Page number 64, Line 1: "GULABA SINGH ALIAS GULABA KHATRI" "The founder of this Misl was Gulaba Khatri, son of Sharada Ram"

Read it Abh9850 (talk) 22:19, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See bro abh9850, as the reference mentions both as Gulaba Khatri and Gulab Singh Rathore, so we can agree to keep both. Hope this will help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.253.165.236 (talk) 22:23, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There are 3 references. All 3 call him a Khatri by birth. Gulaba Singh Khatri. "Gulaba Rathor" is the name the Sikhs gave him after he did a raid on Jalandhar, which I have mentioned. The sources do not say he was born as "Gulaba Singh Rathor" It is quite clear. I have added the exact text in Harim Ram Gupta's book. Abh9850 (talk) 22:25, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned earlier Khatri means Kshatriya “varna” in Panjabi language. You also might be well aware of the fact. And who disagrees his child name was Gulaba Khatri and full name was GULAB SINGH RATHOR. Hence we should keep both names. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.253.165.236 (talk) 22:29, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

He is a Khatri by caste and birth. He is not a Rathor by birth. This is the exact statement " One day at the head of 150 comrades, he attacked Jalandhar and having obtained a rich booty all of them returned to their camp in the jungle safely. The Sikhs began to call him "Gulab Singh Rathor" [6]"

Why do you keep removing the *Exact* quotation and adding your own words? Abh9850 (talk) 22:31, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See bro, even I added exact line, even you are “finally” agreeing that his name was GULAB SINGH RATHOR. I also agree that his short version name was “Gulaba Khatri”. So we should keep both names and please stop unnecessary removal of name GULAB SINGH RATHOR, when you also agree that it’s written there. Also read wiki article Rathore, Rathore and Rathor surnames are one and the same thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.253.165.236 (talk) 22:39, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You are removing the EXACT line quoted in Hari Ram Gupta's book and adding your own original research. Original research is NOT allowed in Wikipedia. I have copypasted the EXACT line in his book.

Here is the line on Pg 65: One day at the head of 150 comrades, he attacked Jalandhar and having obtained a rich booty all of them returned to their camp in the jungle safely. The Sikhs began to call him "Gulab Singh Rathor"

This is the exact line. Stop removing it. I am trying to be reasonable Abh9850 (talk) 22:44, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hey man, Rathore and Rathor are same surname. Read this Wikipedia article Rathore for clarification. Rest “SIKHS BEGAN TO CALL HIM GULAB SINGH RATHOR” exact line has been retained. Also added reference mentioning Khatri and Kshatriya as same thing.

STOP THIS VANDALISM NOW, the article is well sourced now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.253.165.236 (talk) 22:51, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, wrong. You need to understand what original research is, the article does NOT call him a Rathore, and he is NOT a Rathore by caste. You are linking a Rathore caste page, he is not a Rathore.

He had a title called "Rathor" Abh9850 (talk) 22:53, 27 September 2020 (UTC) He is a Khatri by caste and birth, NOT a Rathor[reply]

And where in reference it’s mentioned that he was from Khatri caste. Why on earth are you linking to Khatri which is a caste page. Rathore is not a caste page. It’s surname/clan page for Rathore/Rathor. What’s the problem if I linked the man named GULAB SINGH RATHOR, whose surname is Rathor to Rathore/Rathor page.

PLEASE STOP THIS NOW. THIS IS UTTER DISRUPTION AND VANDALISM. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.253.165.236 (talk) 22:58, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Because there are 3 other references he is a Khatri by caste. You are ignoring them ALL. Very conveniently.

Here: hawan, Purnima (2011). When Sparrows Became Hawks, The Making of the Sikh Warrior Tradition, 1699–1799. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-975655-1. on page 62, table 2 calls Gulaba a Khatri Misl Leader of Dallewalia Misl

Furthermore, Singh, Surinder Pal (2009). History Of Sikh Misls. p. 149 He is called a Khatri by caste. Please see these 2 books above. Abh9850 (talk) 23:00, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Abh9850 is correct. According to this source, the person's name was Gulaba Khatri, but Sikhs started to call him Gulab Singh Rathore. A change of name doesn't change a person's caste. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 08:26, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]