Talk:Earl Doherty

Death?

It's been said on Amazon.com review section that Mr. Doherty died "last April." Any truth to that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.240.123.39 (talk) 02:41, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Seems unlikely. There is nothing about this on his website, and I doubt an heir would be unaware of the site or leave his passing unmentioned. If "last April" means April 2008, then the site has been updated multiple times since then, which would be even more odd. If it means April 2009, then although there have been no website updates since January 2009, I wasn't able to find a published obituary either. --RL0919 (talk) 03:19, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, pretty sure he's not dead. I saw him a couple of months ago and he was doing fine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.241.161.23 (talk) 02:25, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

"Biblical Scholar"?

Are we defining "Biblical Scholar" as "someone who has published a book about the bible" or as someone with an earned doctorate in a field of biblical studies? (because if the latter, then how does Doherty qualify?) If he has a relevant advanced degree in ancient history, then he'd be a historian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.59.228.204 (talk) 19:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Scholar is normally defined as either having a masters or higher degree in the subject matter or publishing papers in peer reviewed journals on the subject. Doherty fit the second criteria as the Jesus Puzzle original appeared in a peer reviewed journal.--BruceGrubb (talk) 21:58, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, The Journal of Higher Criticism was not peer reviewed. Anyone who asserts that it was should provide some evidence pertaining to that point; I doubt you'll find any. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Like peer reviewing prevented Science from engaging in that whole Hwang fiasco several years back. Nevermind that aside from medicine peer reviewing has only come about in science within the last 100 years. For example, Albert Einstein's revolutionary "Annus Mirabilis" papers were published in 1902 without peer reviewing. Similarly, Anthropology and archeology developed what we would recognize as peer reviewing beginning c1910. Furthermore, peer reviewed does not carry the same weight across journals. For example, American Journal of Biblical Theology and International Journal for Creation Research are both presented as peer reviewed but one could hardly compare them to the peer reviewed journals like Human Evolution, Advances in Archaeological Method and Theory, American Antiquity, American Anthropologist, American Ethnologist, orAnthropology and Education Quarterly. Looking through anthrosource to see if there were any actual peer reviewed stuff on Jesus I stumbled on this little gem: "There is not a shred of evidence that a historical character Jesus lived, to give an example, and Christianity is based on narrative fiction of high literary and cathartic quality. On the other hand Christianity is concerned with the narration of things that actually take place in human life." Fischer, Roland (1994) "On The Story-Telling Imperative That We Have In Mind" Anthropology of Consciousness. Dec 1994, Vol. 5, No. 4: 16-18. Anthropology of Consciousness is clearly stated as being peer reviewed so that should shut down the nonsense about no challenge to a historical Jesus.--BruceGrubb (talk) 22:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Are anthropologists qualified to determine the historicity of a figure from antiquity? It's not that there's no challenge to the historical Jesus, it's that this challenge doesn't come from qualified historians. The point of this discussion was to determine if Doherty qualifies as a "historian." If he has no advanced degree in history and hasn't published in a peer reviewed journal on the topic (no matter if you think those things aren't important), then he's not rightly categorized as a historian. It's not whether you agree with him or not, it's whether the article puts him in the proper categories. Sort of like if we found out he believes in a God, we'd have to remove him from the "atheists" category. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.52.143.152 (talk) 07:36, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes. I see what you mean. I qualified in archaeology in the eearly 1980s. But as I haven't worked in the field of archaeology for many years, I do not describe myself as an archaeologist. 92.8.205.199 (talk) 01:10, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Please, visit the website of J. Higher Criticism http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/. It has a humorous frontpage stating that "This Publication May be Hazardous to Your Cherished Assumptions!" and another joke "F. C. Baur says, "I've been waiting a long time to see something like this appear again." F.C. Bauer is death since 1882. It seems to me that it is a erudite fanzine discontinued in 2003. Anyway, perhaps Wikipedia should cite only journals of the ISI Thomson database, because in internet times, any person can create an electronic scientific ou theological journal. And there is no Editorial Board in the journal webpage.

Another question: Doherty cites that he has B.A. in Ancient History AND Classical Languages, which are two different disciplines. Has he two B.A.s? Could someone provide independent information about where (which University) these B.A.s are obtained? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Osame (talk • contribs) 12:59, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

POV

This statement is pure POV: "Currently, the position that Jesus never existed is a minority position among scholars and Doherty's arguments have not made a very strong impression on the consensus [1] among the Western scholars. ..."

What does majority rule have to do with truth? Or that there was no historical proof of “Jesus”? - Sparky 17:50, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed! It's not like historians know anything, right?

Please. Every basic statement of history is going to be disputed by someone; people are contrary. But if the majority of relevant scholars on a topic aren't considered to be worthwhile for citation, then we may as well write off all history on Wikipedia at once. Because that's the only way that we're really going to get historical positions, without original research. -Senori 22:21, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

We could take the middle road here, and just put "Doherty is supported by a minority of scholars". This solves the problem of sounding too biased either way. Deathmunkee 06:07, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

There is no need to put in a general comment like "most historians do not accept the ahistoricity of Jesus" as a specific refutation of the book. Certainly if Earl Doherty has been actually refuted by someone that specific objection can be brought in here. Other articles where the writer's work has been criticized links to those specific objections, and I see no reason why Doherty can't be afforded the same respect.-RomeW (talk) 03:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I think currently the "minority of scholars" is basically Robert M. Price (though I can't be certain that he supports Doherty 100%, though he agrees with the basic premise, that Jesus's actual historical existence is doubtful), and unlike Doherty, Price actually has a doctorate in a relevant field (PhD in New Testament, according to his site). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.59.228.204 (talk) 22:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. I addressed this issue on the Jesus Myth page a while back. A quick search through google produced not only Robert M. Price (a Professor of Theology and Scriptural Studies) but also Alvar Ellegard (former Dean of the Faculty of Art University of Goteborg, Sweden), Frank R. Zindler (a professor though admittedly of biology and geology), and Thomas "Tom" Harpur (former New Testament professor of University of Toronto). Insanely easy to fine if one just takes the trouble to look--BruceGrubb (talk) 10:46, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Now that's AWESOME. You were able to find TWO biblical scholars, a swedish scientist from the last century, the president of the american atheists who has also no credentials in the field and ... that's it! Wow, now that's an awful lot. I always thought the jesus myth was fringe lunacy but now there's even TWO biblical scholars! And therefore it's not the minority - WOW! Look, Liberty University has a biology-professor who denies evolution. Therefore, creationism is not the minority! Hurray! Answer in Genesis has a more impressive list of fringe lunatics and so has the flat earth society. 84.59.136.68 (talk) 14:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

response to the "notability" question

This is ridiculous. I am generally considered to currently be the world's leading Jesus mythicist. My books and website have had a huge impact on this controversial issue and are known around the globe. And this is not "notable"? Just who is this "an editor"? A Christian who would like to remove me from the Wikipedia's public eye? - Earl Doherty —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.29.88.35 (talk) 06:07, 18 May 2007

Agreed. Earl has significantly advanced the mythicist argument and is largely responsible for its current popularity and strength. One rarely encounters a mythicist website, article, book or other that does not cite or otherwise recognize Earl's work. His case for there being no historical Jesus is the strongest one yet advanced. His book, his arguments, and his name are certainly notable and meet Wikipedia's related standards. His arguments as they are presented in his book and on his website have garnered much attention from notable scholars such as Richard Carrier and Robert Price, to name just a couple. It is unclear on what basis one would argue that this article (or The Jesus Puzzle article which I see has also been tagged) is not notable. (By the way Earl, just wanna say hello from Australia!) - Ian Tremblay —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ian1985 (talk • contribs) 11:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC).

"I am generally considered to currently be the world's leading Jesus mythicist." By whom? Is it even possible to be a world leader in any field without relevant qualifications, academic recognition, or peer reviewed publications? Sankari Suomi (talk) 03:30, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

The following comment was posted yesterday by myself and deleted shortly after by an “anonymous user”. It seems that apologetic activity and suppression of viewpoints is alive and well on Wikipedia. I will keep re-posting this as long as the “notability” box above shows: “This is ridiculous. I am considered to currently be the world’s leading Jesus mythicist. My books and website have had a huge impact on this controversial issue and are known around the globe. And this is not “notable”?!! And who is this “an editor”? A Christian who wants to remove me from the Wikipedia public eye?” – Earl Doherty —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.29.86.244 (talk) 14:52, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. It's worth noting that "notability" in Wikipedia terms means something fairly specific; see Wikipedia:Notability. In general, a subject is considered "notable" based not on its popularity, or its importance as judged by editors, but on whether it has received significant coverage from independent published sources. I presume the editor who tagged the article did so because it doesn't currently cite any such sources. This should not be interpreted as implying any comment on your work; it simply concerns the current state of the article. EALacey 18:43, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I've added several more external links to independent reviews and critiques of The Jesus Puzzle. There should now be no room for contention over the notability of this article, not that there ever was really. If there are no objections, let's remove this tag and the one on The Jesus Puzzle article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ian1985 (talk • contribs) 00:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

It might have been deleted by someone who thinks that an unsupported claim by someone about themselves does not belong in an encyclopaedia. Just a thought...92.8.205.199 (talk) 01:16, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. I think "Acharya S" (Dorothy Murdock) is actually the world's leading Jesus Myther. Since both Mr. Doherty and Ms. Murdock are both amateur writers, I think we should go by "notability" based on their reader base and popularity. As such, Murdock is more notable. I agree that Doherty IS notable on the internet for his promotion of Jesus Mythicism, but he's certainly not the "leading proponent" or the most well known. Just think of "Zeitgeist the Movie" which came out back in 2007, was hugely popular in internet circles, and is based largely on the "research" of Acharya S. And she has probably a larger cult following than Mr. Doherty on the internet as well (though both, from a scholarly point of view, are fringe). Just check Amazon.com rankings... her two most well known books (Christ Conspiracy, Suns of God) have sold more than Doherty's "Jesus Puzzle."

Additional sources

Below are some sources discussing Doherty's views that are not yet in the article, which might be added (and which also support notability):

• Wells, G.A. (2004). Can We Trust the New Testament?: Thoughts on the Reliability of Early Christian Testimony. Chicago: Open Court. ISBN 0-8126-9567-4. 
• Price, Robert M. (2009). "Jesus at the Vanishing Point". In Beilby, James K. & Eddy, Paul Rhodes. The Historical Jesus: Five Views. Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press. pp. 65, 67-68. ISBN 978-0-8308-3868-4. 
• Freke, Timothy & Gandy, Peter (2002). Jesus and the Lost Goddess: The Secret Teachings of the Original Christians. New York: Random House. ISBN 1-4000-4594-0. 
• Bock, Darrell L. & Wallace, Daniel B. (2007). Dethroning Jesus: Exposing Popular Culture's Quest to Unseat the Biblical Christ. Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson. ISBN 978-0-7852-2615-4. 

B.A. in Ancient History AND Classical Languages? and where?

I'll repeat a previous question that deserves answer:

"Doherty cites that he has B.A. in Ancient History AND Classical Languages, which are two different disciplines. Has he two B.A.s? Could someone provide independent information about where (which University) these B.A.s are obtained?"--79.17.192.188 (talk) 08:18, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Neither the article nor the source used claims Doherty has two degrees. Normally when someone says they have "a degree" in X and Y, that means they had a "double major". An independent source would be preferable, of course, but there doesn't seem to be any sort of extraordinary claim here. --RL0919 (talk) 12:06, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I think that to know which University we are talking about is very important; Not all universities are equal .--95.247.28.215 (talk) 06:40, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

^^ Good point. I have contacted Doherty personally on two separate occasions, asking him to clarify (a) where he studied, and (b) what degree(s) he received. Although happy to discuss other issues with me, he has so far declined to answer any questions about his education and qualifications. It seems clear to me that we have no independent confirmation of his alleged qualifications.Sankari Suomi (talk) 11:11, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Two more requests have been rebuffed. Doherty simply refuses to confirm the details of his education. Since he relies on the claim of academic credentials to bolster his credibility, the claim requires substantiation. The reference to his alleged degree should be withdrawn from the article until it can be independently confirmed. I have now removed it. Sankari Suomi (talk) 01:52, 19 August 2011 (UTC)