Talk:List of endorsements in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum

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An opinion is not the same thing as a political endorsement[edit]

There have been many individuals and organisations that have expressed opinions about Scottish independence. For example, many defence officials have expressed concern that it would weaken the defence of Scotland and/or the rest of the United Kingdom. Or to give another example, an airline executive said that he approved of the possibility that an independent Scottish Government would cut Air Passenger Duty. These are not the same thing as endorsing one side or the other. That means giving an express opinion that they want one side or the other to win, or that they intend to vote for one side or the other, or that they recommend that others vote a certain way. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 16:35, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • This article on the BBC is a very good example of what I am talking about. The article is all about the various concerns expressed by Standard Life and how they are making preparations in case Scottish independence happens. From that it would be very easy to assume that Standard Life's formal position is to oppose independence. Yet if you fully read the article, there is a direct quote from the company chief executive stating that the company is neutral and will not advise people (including its employees) how to vote. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 16:58, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
and that's why I added a paragraph on std life! 66.225.161.37 (talk) 17:56, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A direct quote from the chief executive says the company is neutral in the referendum. There is no basis for saying that the company has taken one side or the other. I believe the correct position would be to state the company is neutral in this article, but also to mention its concerns (as a major company and employer) in the economy section of the main article. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 18:05, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

POV tag[edit]

I have added this tag because the IP address refuses to discuss on the talk page as to what constitutes an endorsement. In particular the IP is mis-representing the position of Standard Life, which I have detailed above. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 17:48, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Quotes[edit]

I don't like the addition of extensive quoting in the article. This article is meant to be simply a list of endorsements, with names and simple identifying details. For an example of endorsement lists in other elections, see List of Barack Obama presidential campaign endorsements, 2008. If the person or organisation has made a clear endorsement of one side or the other, it should not be necessary to quote them. If we added every single person (particularly individual politicians) that has a clearly expressed endorsement, the article may be too big to also include quotes. I am also concerned that selective quoting may affect the POV of the article. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 18:04, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. --John (talk) 21:20, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Lodge[edit]

The Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland is, perhaps unsurprisingly, out for No, and have their own referendum-specific campaigning wing "British Together". Should they be under "Campaign Groups" or should a new subsection be created, "Other Groups"?GideonF (talk) 16:03, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think they should be listed under "other organisations" unless they actually register with the Electoral Commission as an official campaign group for a no vote. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 16:36, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Alistair McConnachie[edit]

An intriguing addition to the Electoral Commission's list of Permitted Participants: one Alistair McConnachie has registered for No as an individual. Seemingly the same Alistair McConnachie who runs http://www.aforceforgood.org.uk, a former UKIP candidate with an interesting history. Worth a mention? GideonF (talk) 16:33, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think he should be listed as his support for a no vote is on public record, but this isn't really the place for discussing him as an individual (WP:NOTAFORUM, WP:COATRACK). I doubt whether he would meet the requirements of WP:N for a standalone article. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 16:43, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've created a "page" for Alistair McConnachie that redirects to the established page for Independent Green Voice, a political party that he apparently created. That party's page discusses his character to some extent. Zcbeaton (talk) 04:52, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

David Tennant[edit]

The reference cited for his position against independence is fairly weak, not to mention out of date (August 2011). A much more recent article (March 2014) states that he "says it's not his business, since he doesn't live in Scotland". I think it would be best if he were moved to the "Officially endorse neither side" section. -- 24.212.139.102 (talk) 16:24, 24 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Moving to the suggested section of the article. BananaLanguage (talk) 17:00, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Politicians[edit]

Is it necessary to list politicians (e.g., Alex Salmond, Ed Milliband) who back their party policy on this, when the parties are already listed? I appreciate the reasons for including those (e.g., Charles Gray, Robin Harper) who have stated views that go against their party's policy, but I don't see how it's new information that, for example, the leader of the Labour party supports the Labour party's position on the issue.GideonF (talk) 13:32, 2 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • I understand your point, but these sort of endorsement lists normally include politicians toeing the party line; e.g. the politicians listed in endorsements of Barack Obama's 2012 campaign is mainly a who's who of Democrats. I suppose the justification for this is that we shouldn't assume that readers, particularly those in the far future, know who the leadership figures are (or were). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 13:47, 2 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Entertainers[edit]

A reasonable criterion for listing celebrities/entertainers is that each should have a Wikipedia article. If a band, etc. that they are part of has an article instead, then I think that should be fine.

But should a gloss be added to some entries? Some of the musicians now have an association listed as well, but not all do and other celebrities don't either. Things such as "John Cummings of Mogwai" might help some people, but there needs to be consistency. Why not "Emma Pollock of The Delgados, The Burns Unit and The Fruit Tree Foundation"? Because, I suggest, that the page will become a mess and there'll be no reason not to gloss all of the other celebrities with yet more blue-linked information. Any reader already knows that the musicians are musicians, because of the heading (or the basic "musician" in the 'no' zone); their obscurity or otherwise should be left, thereby avoiding implying that other members of the same band hold the same view. EddieHugh (talk) 23:23, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

US Congressmen/women[edit]

Should US Congressmen be listed individually in the "international politicians" section? It kind of clogs up a section that features three Prime Ministers and other foreign ministers. Knoper (talk) 19:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Deceased individuals[edit]

I note that we've been removing people who have given endorsements on either side if they've passed away in the meantime. This is not standard practice on any existing lists of endorsements on Wiki. Just because the individual died before the event surely doesn't disregard their opinion? Do we have a consensus to keep Ian Paisley, and re-add Maitland Mackie, Margo McDonald and Iain Banks etc? The latter 3 played intimate rolls in this campaign, it makes sense to me. Thoughts?--Jkaharper (talk) 21:01, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The article (a list, really) is of "Endorsements in the Scottish independence referendum, 2014". It should contain those who gave an opinion on the 2014 referendum specifically. A cut-off date is required... Scottish independence referendum, 2014 states that "the Scottish independence Referendum Bill, setting out the arrangements for this referendum, was put forward on 21 March 2013, passed by the Scottish Parliament on 14 November 2013 and received Royal Assent on 17 December 2013." Assuming that those dates are correct, I'd go for the first one, to try to get as many people in as possible. Before that, people were giving an opinion on independence, perhaps, but not on this particular referendum. So: Mackie, no; the other three listed, yes. EddieHugh (talk) 21:25, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Mackie only passed away in the last couple of months. He was present at the Better Together launch in Aberdeen, and made frequent appearances in the press regarding his views prior to his death, so I'll add all of them. --Jkaharper (talk) 15:37, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ah: I was looking at Maitland Mackie. Looks like the new person IC is also Maitland Mackie... Could link it to Mackie's, if that's the correct firm. EddieHugh (talk) 15:58, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sigur Rós[edit]

Citing that the music band Sigur Rós believe in a "yes" vote for independence seems far-fetched in the circumstances. The link to the source of this quote is a Facebook photograph of the lead singer in a pub, with an unnatrributable quote below the image [1]. The source itself comes from a website with a very clear "yes" to independence agenda, National Collective, and many of their source attributions for artists who endorse independence seem equally suspicious or false. I'm wondering whether action can be taken against this for the sake of veracity and impatiality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.99.176 (talk) 10:25, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Listing individual politicians[edit]

It seems somewhat pointless to list SNP politicians individually as endorsing independence, and Labour ones as opposing, etc., when those parties are already listed. The politician list should, I suggest, only cover politicians with views different from their party's or where their party does not have a view, or independents. Bondegezou (talk) 13:20, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Already discussed above. All endorsement pages on Wiki work in the same way - and it's done like this as quite often you'll find politicians going against the line of their party. Mainly retired ones (e.g. Nick Johnston was a Conservative MSP but wants independence, Dennis Canavan was a Labour MP but is a YesScotland figurehead, Robin Harper was a Green Party MSP but wants to keep the UK). Particularly in this debate you have splinter groups of political parties like Labour for Independence and United with Labour, so it's important that individual politicians are not furballed into yes or no brands based on presumptions. Keep it encyclopaedic. Cheers, --Jkaharper (talk) 15:47, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The examples given for listing individual politicians relate to systems and practices in US politics that have no equivalent here. There is no reason for "endorsement pages" to all work the same if they are describing very different underlying phenomena. I still see zero point in a long list of SNP politicians being listed. Why not just say "SNP support Yes" and "Labour support No, except for those named below..."? Bondegezou (talk) 15:15, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That gives undue weight to the polticians who take a different line. Re: the complaint about a "long list", WP:NOTPAPER. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 15:25, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Queen[edit]

What about the Queen? "Officially" she may be neutral, but she purposely did a walkabout at Crathie last Sunday and let her views slip. Surely this can be cited? 66.67.32.161 (talk) 20:42, 18 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not in this list. That stuff is addressed in the referendum article. EddieHugh (talk) 20:46, 18 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Non-participant political parties[edit]

CR85747: What exactly are "Non-participant political parties"? EddieHugh (talk) 11:13, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Parties which did not register with the Electoral Commission to officially participate in the referendum. CR85747 (talk) 8:14, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

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Regional offshoots of registered political parties[edit]

The Scottish Conservative Party has been added.

Is this relevant? The Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party (to give it its full title) is only a 'branch office' of the main UK Conservative Party. If we start adding regional offshoots, where do we stop? Scottish Labour Party, Scottish Liberal Democrats? CraigS1969 (talk) 19:14, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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