Talk:Haliwa-Saponi Indian Tribe

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Map needed[edit]

A map would be a good addition, especially since 70% live near Hollister, NC. That article map could be used.--Parkwells (talk) 15:07, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alot of mis information[edit]

"From the 1730s to the 1770s, Haliwa-Saponi ancestors settled in and near the modern Haliwa-Saponi area in North Carolina. The Haliwa-Saponi community began coalescing in "The Meadows" of southwestern Halifax County, North Carolina immediately after the American Revolution.[2] Much reduced in number, the few remaining Tuscarora migrated from Bertie County to New York in 1804, joining others on a reservation there.[2] Their reservation land in North Carolina had been steadily reduced through the eighteenth century and was finally sold off."

Actually the members of the Haliwa's ancestors did not move to the area till 1790-1820....40-70 years AFTER the Saponi left the area.

The place where the Saponi was recorded in 1750 was not Warren county etc...it was actual Granville county, NC of today.

The members of the Haliwa Saponi currently do not have anyone enrolled with them that carries any of the historically recorded Saponi names nor followed in the Saponi migration patterns.

About 90 percent of the Haliwa saponi descend from John Basse...a Nansemond...not Saponi.

Their original name was the Haliwanash indian club. Over the years they have claimed to be cherokee...then Nansemond...then Tuscarora...now their latest claim is Saponi even though they have no supporting documentation for this and dispite the fact their claim their indian blood thru the Nansemond tribe instead of the Saponi. While they had state recognigtion before 1979....they never called themself Saponi until 1979. There was a group calling themself Saponi inthe area before 1979...nd they do to this day...and is documented historical as Saponi and has lived in the area since at least 1730....however the Haliwa does NOT have ANY of them enrolled.

Alot of people confuses the older group with the Haliwa however they are two very different groups. A quick read of "Cherokee communities of the south" which was wrote in 1978 and includes interviews with both groups will give a person the truth about the two groups....it will show the truth about which group is the REAL Saponi and which group is not the REAL group.

http://works.bepress.com/robert_thomas/24/

Historical records did name the historical Saponi by name...so it is not hard to know which is realand which is not. Another group near the Haliwa did something like this also....the Cherokee Powhatan tribe changed it's name to indians of person county....then in 1990's tried to pass itself off as Saponi.

Another group in the area has done something like this also...the occaneechi saponi.....their ancestors moved to the area in 1850....100 years after the Saponi left the area....their ancestors are on historical records as "Catawba"...in the 1980's they tried to add the Saponi name also even though they do not have anyone enrolled who matches those historical documented Saponi and they was not in the area till 1850.

Currently these 3 groups do not use Saponi documentation in their enrollment process. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.73 (talk) 05:31, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Haliwa government audit[edit]

http://www.rrdailyherald.com/news/article_6d2a52f6-7720-11e0-834d-001cc4c002e0.html http://www.nativetimes.com/news/tribal/5310-audit-haliwa-saponi-tribe-made-inaccurate-grant-request http://www.indianz.com/News/2011/001309.asp http://www.ncauditor.net/EPSWeb/Reports/Investigative/INV-2011-0363.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.73 (talk) 05:58, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

" A mistake, according to State Auditor’s report, cost the Haliwa-Saponi Tribe a $316,000 Golden LEAF grant and possibly a much-needed multipurpose building at the tribal school.

“It was a serious mistake,” said Dennis Patterson, spokesperson for the State Auditor’s office.

The audit, prompted by a citizen’s complaint, alleged false information was included on the tribe’s grant application to Golden LEAF for the project. " — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.73 (talk) 05:38, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Recognigtion[edit]

Currently the Haliwa-Saponi group is not recognized by the united states government as a "indian tribe". So this page should not be edited as statement of facts until they have met requirements set forth by the Government which has a process for proving tribe's as legit. When the state of North Carolina recognized this group at the state level they did not have any formal recognigtion process nor was there any requirements to show documentation or proof.

United states government accountability office "Report to the honorable house of representatives", April 2012 Page 40 http://www.gao.gov/assets/600/590102.pdf

Federal register/ Vol. 81/ Wednesday, May 4th, 2016, Notices "Indian tribal entities within the contigious 48 states RECOGNIZED and ELIGIBLE to receive services from the United states bureau of indian affairs" Page 3 http://www.bia.gov/cs/groups/xraca/documents/text/idc1-033010.pdf

Robert K Thomas met with, conducted interviews, and published research on the Haliwa group in 1978 under the name "Cherokee Communities of the South", All suranmes associated with this Haliwa group was recored yet none matched to historical Saponi documented surnames, in fact none of these families was associated to Robert K Thomas' "Saponi" section. There was no mention of "Saponi" with the Haliwa group at that time as well. Those named Saponi in 1978 with documentation was denied enrollment with the Haliwa group. The Haliwa group's area was never documented as a "Saponi" location nor any historical "Saponi" villages located in that area

"There is in northern North Carolina a tribe which is officially called the Haliwa Indians. They live in Halifax and Warren Counties, North Carolina near the town of Roanoke Rapids. They are a fairly large group of about 5,000. Their official name is Haliwa - a contraction created by putting together the names of the counties of Halifax and Warren and creating the term Haliwa. Many of the Indians in this group refer to themselves as Cherokee. They do not accept the term Haliwa and refer to themselves as Cherokee although the term Haliwa is gaining more acceptance as time goes on. This tribe appears from the research I have done, to be the remnants of the North Carolina Tuscaroras. It appears that the Haliwa are remnants of the neutral Tuscarora." Cherokee Communities of the South, Robert K Thomas, Pages 6, 7, and 40. https://works.bepress.com/robert_thomas/24/

The very next year (1979) the Haliwa's added "Saponi" to their name dispite the fact that another group was already known as Saponi in North Carolina (As shown in Robert K Thomas' report). "Tribe name: Haliwa-Saponi Indian Tribe of North Carolina; Status in Interior's administrative acknowledgment process[A]: Petitioner #63. Letter of intent submitted on Nov. 27, 1979. " http://www.gao.gov/assets/600/590726.txt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.156.120.246 (talk) 08:03, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

the major problem as I see it is a small group of individuals such as yourself who have dedicated much time and energy to harnessing the law and legal system as a personal vehicle, to engage in persecution of other groups in a desperate attempt to deny others their rightful indigenous heritage. 71.127.128.21 (talk) 11:40, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

With this being wikipedia we MUST keep the pages on a FACT basis and must not CLAIM something as fact without proof the statement made is fact. The fact is that this group has never showed proof as to being part of the historical saponi group, this group has been changing it's tribe name many times over the years, they have never met the federal government's requirements, their surnames does not match the historical recorded surnames or family trees associated to the historical saponi, and they are not in any of the historically documented saponi areas, this group originally started out named haliwanash indian club this was when they claimed cherokee. This group has over 4,000 members now yet there is right now tribes with under 500 members and have gained federal recognigtion. Every time they change their name they add a new historical tribe name and demand they are that tribe. So as it is, it has never been factually proven this group is related in any way to the historical Saponi so we should not add that as a "FACT", it is a "Claim" at this point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.156.120.246 (talk) 13:05, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"In Wikipedia, verifiability means that anyone using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. Wikipedia does not publish original research. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it.[1] When reliable sources disagree, present what the various sources say, give each side its due weight, and maintain a neutral point of view." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.156.120.246 (talk) 13:08, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Controversy[edit]

A section about a financial audit has been added and removed from the article several times. It's time to have a discussion about this and develop a consensus as to its inclusion. The information appears to be supported by two news reports and an off-line government report. Are these sources adequate to support the controversial statements in this section?—Anne Delong (talk) 01:32, 1 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]