Talk:Helmut Kirchmeyer

Stockhausen's music

A reference has been added at the point where a request was made for something to support the claim that "part of Stockhausen's Mittwochs-Gruß was played at its opening", and the date "March 25, 2001" has been added. The book cited names Stockhausen in just three places: on p. 2 there is the plaque, reading "Stockhausen vertonte sie", on p. 5 a Stockhausen work titled "50 Klangbilder" is named (not the Mittwochs-Gruß), which is said to have been "especially composed for this space" (whereas the Mittwochs-Gruß was composed as part of the last scene of Mittwoch aus Licht in 1997, and later extracted for use as the opera's "greeting", first performed only in 2004), and p. 58 is taken up with a long paragraph headed "Der Krypta-Film und die Stockhausen-Vertonung". The date "25 March 2001" is found in this paragraph, not for the opening of the crypt, but rather for the premiere of the documentary film about it ("Die private Uraufführung des Films mit der Musik Stockhausens vor zahlreichen geladenen Gästen erfolgte am 25. März 2001").

Furthermore, the composition is described there as lasting ten minutes, and it is said that Stockhausen "nahm den Auftrag an, für ein ausgesuchte Sequenz von 50 Bildern eine zugeordnete Musik zu schreiben, die er nach Fertigstellung 50 Klangbilder nannte. Die Komposition besteht aus der Vertonung der 50 Bilder in einem Zeitumfang von fünf Minuten und in einem zweiten Musikteil von gleicher Länge mit freigelassenerZuordnung. Dadiurch kam es zu einer wechselseitigen Beeinflussung von Bild und Musik". The cited source therefore fails to verify anything in this claim. The music in the film, included with the book on a DVD, can be confirmed by anyone who knows the music to be the last ten minutes of the 53-minute-long Mittwochs-Gruß (though I know of no reliable source which can be cited as yet), but this is completely contradicted by the claim that the 50 Klangbilder was composed for the crypt, and is a musical response to fifty images in Schult's visual creation.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:46, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

The date will soon either be confirmed or corrected. I am in the process of contacting both, Mr. Emil Schult and Prof. Helmut Kirchmeyer (I know both of them personally) in order to get correct evidence and supporting sources for the/a correct date. - cjumasons — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjumasons (talk • contribs) 20:08, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I look forward to a resolution of this matter. It might also be added that there is no mention of the title 50 Klangbilder in Stockhausen's catalogue of works.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:14, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I received the statement that there is no evidence for the fact that the piece 50 Klangbilder, which was a contract work, is part of the Mittwochs-Gruß, nobody seems to have heard of that fact. I checked the history of this page and found that the originial author did not write about this, the remark on Mittwochs-Gruß was added later on by a different author. So since there seems to be no evidence for the statement, I deleted that remark. Furthermore Prof. Kirchmeyer told me, that there was no official opening of the crypt. On March 25 2001, as correctly stated by the referenced book (on page 58, as you pointed out correctly) there was a celebration where both, the movie and the music where publicly presented to an audience (a group of invited guests) for the first time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjumasons (talk • contribs) 15:44, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the report. The editor who added that information was User:Michael Bednarek, and he almost certainly obtained it from me, in a discussion on the Usenet group rec.music.classical,contemporary. The edit here appeared the day after I gave the information in that place. The only evidence for the statement, therefore, appears to be my testimony, which counts for absolutely nothing at all on Wikipedia, of course. Until I publish it in a reliable source, that is. It is true that the equalization is different in the mixdown for the film than on the CD and, since the film soundtrack must date from an early stage of editing, it may be said that it was created first for the film, and only later incorporated into the Mittwochs-Gruß (which may well have undergone editing right up to its release on CD in 2003, or its public premiere in 2004). It is equally possible that there are editing changes other than the different EQ that could technically render it a separate work. This was the case for the music Stockhausen provided for the film In Absentia by the Brothers Quay, which was remixed from a portion of the electronic music for Freitag aus Licht. However, in that case the film music received a separate title, Two Couples, and work number 63⅔, and so is listed separately in the composer's catalogue of works. Perhaps the omission of Fünfzig Klangbilder there is just an oversight.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:20, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Jerome is correct about my part in the Partika-Saal's crypt-related edits. I mistook his report ("last 10 minutes of Mittwochs-Gruß") about the music on the CD accompanying the book Symbolik einer Krypta (2012) to mean that that piece was part of the crypt's opening; this misconception was aided by the publisher's blurb "eigens für den Raum komponierten Musik von Stockhausen" (specially for the room composed music by Stockhausen).

BTW, the title Symbolik einer Krypta turns up twice in Kirchmeyer's list of publications, in 1996 and in 2001: Kirchmeyer: Articles and brochures. (I don't understand why the list of publications had to be culled; Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia.) -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:45, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the explanations. As for the list of publications: I agree with you. But I talked to Grandini, the author of the original article (personal conversation) about the criticsm with respect to the lengthy list of publications and she told me that she is not an expert when it comes to any standards for Wikipedia articles and that she understands that critical comments of users are made in order to ensure the article's compliance with such guidelines and standards. So she was fine with the deletion of that whole section if that makes the article more balanced and neutral. So I took it out. I will point her to this discussion, such that she can decide whether she wants to re-insert parts of the list. Thanks again to both of you for your valuable comments and clarifications. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjumasons (talk • contribs) 17:38, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

List of works/publications

This page is fast becoming (or has already become) more of a list of Krchmeyer's works rather than an encyclopedic article. It's generally more acceptable to include a 'selection'.

It's important to note also, that seven of the eleven sources are to the subject's own books. These does not assert notability per WP:RS, because they are Primary Sources written by the subject himself and do not support biographical content. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:28, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Catalogue of Stravinsky's compositions

His catalogue of Stravinsky's compositions ought to be mentioned here, but I don't know enough about it and don't know where to mention it in the existing article. Ishboyfay (talk) 01:55, 21 January 2024 (UTC)