Talk:Teso people

Atesot tribe

What is the relation between the Atesot tribe and the Iteso? See article Enoch Olinga. Wiki-uk 11:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Atesot is just another name for Iteso.--Ezeu 11:28, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The people are called Iteso, the male person is called Etesot, the female person is called Atesot and the language is called Ateso. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.0.7.5 (talk) 13:19, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Ezeu you are on point Isamait (talk) 16:31, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Kenyacradle and other changes

Sakwara, you need to discuss here what you want to change, as it has been reverted by multiple editors and not without reason. For one thing, stop messing up the hatnote, which is correct already. Two, please carefully look at the result of your editing. You have duplicated multiple paragraphs in the text. And third, you need to bring a reliable source. That KenyaCradle page has literally copied at least one portion of this Wikipedia article, so we can't possibly trust them as a source. I didn't find what you're referring to on everyculture.com, although I'm not at all sure about that website either. I'll try to search a bit to see if something else can be found. -- Fyrael (talk) 04:09, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Fyrael, respectfully, I do not need to discuss what I need to change with you. This incorrect information that you keep changing has come to the notice of many and sincerely please stop citing wrong information about a whole group of people. You are demonizing a whole sect of people with incorrect information. Before I made any changes, I double checked with several sources and individuals who have written and are currently writing an in-depth history on the Teso people. I have in fact told them to sign onto Wikipedia as well to rectify this. My background: I have studied about this culture and I am deeply connected with the museum that they have in Nairobi and in Teso (western). I am also a Teso, deeply connected with my culture. I strongly urge you to do some research before making further edits to this, as this information is highly inaccurate. What is your source that Ateso means graves? Besides legend has it? For years this information was never on Wikipedia until you showed up. 2) As to the duplicated paragraph, I have corrected it. This was obviously a small error on my part. 3) what hatnote have I messed with? Everculture and Kenyacradle have individuals who are versed with the history of the Teso as well hence me referencing them. Kenya Cradle had this information on their website for years before you came and added the one on graves. Importantly, as mentioned, my reference are anthropologists, professors and those at the Teso museum - these individuals carry a deep history of the Teso people. The information you are supporting simply does not exist. You're asking for citation yet you have not provided one.

I am literally on the phone with people who carry the history of Teso in their hands and even in museums, and this is what's written. They have all denied the existence of any cultural history that references the Ateso to mean graves.

About Tesos: This is what you might be confusing on their history. Tesos are known to be very brave and they go out fearlessly not being afraid of anything. Many people would observe them and advise them to be very careful because they will end up in graves – meaning ‘Ates’, because of the way they’re moving ahead, they might run into problems and end up dying, that they must slow down. This is where the graves reference comes in.

Ateso, Iteso or Teso (a whole group pf people) however does not mean graves. You have to remember that although many tribes can come from the same linguistic group, they carry different cultures and practices. Ateso does not mean graves, and I believe you are confusing histories here. Please I urge you to do proper research on this as the information is readily available. Sakwara (talk) 18:53, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Fyrael I have also contacted Wikipedia to help solve this issue and they've advised on how to go on about it. When adding sensitive content about a whole group of people, consider the impact you're making and the history you're re-writing especially on a platform like Wikipedia. I am glad that we caught on to this. If there's no actual reference to back up your claims, I am urging you to not demonize a group of people with such information. I will add other users to this discussion so they can add to this conversation shortly. The answer is not to go back and forth changing the information, but to come to a mutual understanding on what is verifiable. As I mentioned, I am not sure when you came and changed this information on Wikipedia, but it did not exist here before you added it.Sakwara (talk) 19:11, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Fyrael you are still changing the information on this page without citing your references. Please stop. It is beyond unprofessional to demonize a whole group of people with fables that you picked up. I explained myself and you're still pasting your own things.Sakwara (talk) 19:19, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Respectfully, you do need to discuss changes that are challenged by other editors. This is a collaborative project, and if you cannot understand that then you aren't going to accomplish much on Wikipedia. I find you asking about what sources exist for the current content to be disingenuous. The sources are those bits in between the <ref></ref> tags that you keep removing. Meanwhile you have provided no citations to reliable sources in your replacement content. Your credentials, ancestry, and who you may or may not be talking to on the phone are not relevant here, as we require information to be verifiable. You need to read WP:VERIFY and WP:CITE before attempting to discuss this any further. To be clear, I did not add any of the information that's in the article and have no personal attachment to it.

As for what's on the Kenyacradle page, can you actually confirm that it's been there for more than 7 years? And you still haven't given an actual URL for the content you say is on EveryCulture. I tried searching their site briefly, but didn't find anything relevant. Please supply the actual page. -- Fyrael (talk) 19:23, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

You are correct that swapping it back and forth is unproductive and that you can be blocked if you continue to edit war. The policy here is that if a new change is challenged then the previous, stable version of the article stays up while discussion takes place. That's what I'm doing. And I don't see how anyone is being "demonized" here. The fact that a tribe name could etymologically come from the word "grave" isn't even mildly negative. Stop being dramatic for no constructive purpose. -- Fyrael (talk) 19:27, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Fyrael what is your source that the word Ateso means graves? You're asking me to back up what I am saying, facts that have existed for years, yet you do not have any credible source. You're telling me not to change information, yet you came and changed it. Does what you're saying making any sense? So for you to have added that information, you cannot come and say legend has it. Legend from where? who are you that you can challenge a whole group of people without any references, yet you are asking me to provide a reference. As for the websites you are refering to I have read them for over ten years now. If you do not have any credible source as to Ateso meaning graves, please do not include it. It's okay for a whole group of people to grow and change, however what you are writing is incorrect and inaccurate. If it's a collaborative platform, which I know, and I am not sure why you're even brining that up. The burden rests on you, as you came to change information that yo know nothing of. And if you do not have any proof or reference other than legend has it, you leave the information as it is, not fables told to you by your friends and peers which you think its okay to change. You also need to understand how things work.Sakwara (talk) 19:34, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

I've now looked through the history to figure out why you think I have added any of this, which is entirely wrong. The word etymology part was added two years ago by an IP editor. By looking through it though, I now see that this particular part was not attached to a particular reference, so I've removed it, which I think you'll agree with. I don't see why you're removing other sources though, and you still need to cite a source for anything else you want to add. -- Fyrael (talk) 19:35, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

I obviously brought up the collaboration bit because you said "I do not need to discuss what I need to change with you", which is the opposite of the attitude you need to have. -- Fyrael (talk) 19:37, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

And if you please just provide the EveryCulture URL that you have alluded to, I'd honestly be very happy to help you put it in a citation, which we can attach to new information you want to add. -- Fyrael (talk) 19:44, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Fyrael My thing with the not needing to discuss - I am sure you didn't discuss with other contributors on adding the graves bit. Did you? There are so many contributors that make up Wikipedia as we know, and we need to approach each other with respect. You just came off very demeaning and trying to educate me on Wikipedia instead of addressing the matter on hand. I too am like you, making sure the proper information is updated. I am sorry, but the one you indicated does not exist with any historian I've contacted. I will contact others tomorrow as well.

I tried to add the URL (everyculture) but for some reason, a part of it is blacklisted (they cover different cultures so who knows who reported what) and Wikipedia has a process to remove it, so I am trying to follow through. I even tried to shorten the URL to paste it here but it didn't allow it. Just type Teso people on that website and it'll come up. As for Kenyacradle they have had that information up for as long as I can remember (and there are other sites as well) and it always used to line up with Wikipedia. I thought I referenced it. The best source of information is the museum. I also urge you to contact the Teso museum in Nairobi or if you're in Kenya, you can visit them; to learn more about their history.Sakwara (talk) 20:07, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

joanafrica Greetings sir, pulling you in. Many thanksSakwara (talk) 20:37, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

I truly do not know how to make any clearer to you the fact that I did not add the graves information to this article. The first time I ever saw this article was 4 days ago and the grave statement has been here for 2 years. Do you understand that now? And yes, I do discuss additions when I need to. The guideline to follow is WP:BRD. You make a change that you believe is accurate and include a source right in the text (not in your edit summary) and most likely that will be the end of it. But if another editor challenges your change, then you must discuss on the talk page to try to reach consensus, not just keep trying to force your change in.

The fact that EveryCulture is blacklisted means that Wikipedia has determined that site to be unreliable. Please do not try to evade the blacklist. The issue with Kenyacradle is that its Origin section has much of the exact same text as our article, and the text here was originally added in 2017 2014, but without a source. So one site was copied to the other, but it's impossible to know which without knowing the history of the Kenyacradle page. And I understand that a museum is of course a good source in general, but just not for Wikipedia. We must have published verifiable sources here. Otherwise people could just claim whatever they wanted. I hope you can understand. -- Fyrael (talk) 20:38, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Also, for clarity, could you please put here on the talk page what you're still trying to add, now that we've done away with that graves thing? It's hard for me to identify the exact diff from the page history and I don't want any further confusion. Thank you. -- Fyrael (talk) 20:46, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

In case you're curious, here's the blacklisting explanation for everyculture: MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist/archives/March 2019. You had described everyculture as created by "anthropologists and researchers". Where did that idea come from? -- Fyrael (talk) 20:55, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Fyrael Thanks for making this clear. For better understanding and clarity, if you are not disputing the graves part, then why do you keep reinstating it? I am lost. Do you work for Wikipedia or are you an editor on the article like I am. If you're not disputing the graves part, could you please not keep adding it back? As this is inaccurate information kindly. It's not forcing information as I could say the same for your actions. You changed it back maybe 5 times completely disregarding my explanations. If you want to add it back, what is the reference that you're standing on so I can study it?

You've also mentioned that I'll have to deal with the author, which I am happy to. I will discuss this on the talk page when the time comes. I haven't logged on to my account for a while as I said and as you can see you even indicate that this information was added two years ago. Added, not a newly written article. Added from where? It cannot be that this new information is accepted without being challenged because there's simply no reference for it.

I just need to understand why you keep adding the graves information back on the page if you saw this article 4 days ago for the first time and also if you're not the author who changed it, why is it important for you to edit the page? What is your role in all this? I also hope that what I wrote is clear because you spoke of the word 'etymology'. I then explained this was not my dispute. The dispute is that someone added new information on the graves part without proper citation (you said its not you).

I am not forcing information. Wikipedia states that editors must take proper precaution while adding information to living persons and this includes some groups. Even if museum ends up not being accepted, another editor should not add information stating that legend has it. In this regard, anyone could come and write anything and say legend has it. If this information existed, then this would be part of history and should be left published, however I am challenging it because this information is false. I will also see how to go about this because as you know museums hold factual information.

Common knowledge and narration indicate the biblical reference re: history and that's why that was always left up. Karamojong people although from the same linguistic group do not hold not carry the same culture as the Tesos. It's like saying the Masaai and the Teso have the same traditions when we are different (with some similarities).

I already asked Wikipedia for direction on adding citations not from articles. I will refer to their guidelines as I see they responded.

Please do not keep reinstating the graves part if you're not the author. It also becomes difficult to discuss this with you because you have no knowledge on this topic and so we cannot reach any consensus. Please explain my concerns above. Many thanksSakwara (talk) 04:31, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

As I said above and is clear in the article history, I already removed the graves part. -- Fyrael (talk) 15:13, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Teso People Correction (joanafrica)

 Note: This discussion has been moved from my talk page M.Bitton (talk) 20:08, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

---

Hello Bitton,

I just saw your message after I made the edit on the Teso people. There was another gentleman who was going back and forth with another user, but he claimed that he was not the author of the page and so on. So it was rather confusing to be talking with someone who kept editing the page to have incorrect information, yet he was not the author who put that there. So I want to understand how this works.

I was pulled in to the discussion because individuals are adding information without there being correct citation, stating that the Ateso name means graves. I was contacted and joined in the conversation. The information I have cited comes from long standing tradition and cultures that are recorded in the museums of Kenya. There are two museums and I work in one of them, and both hold this information.

If we cannot write that this comes from tradition, then how is it possible that Wikipedia allowed wrong information for the past two years without proper citation? Unless that was an error that went unchecked.

Please explain the process. I do understand that we cannot let just anyone write what they please. Very understandable and logical. If you indeed work for Wikipedia, can we get information from the Teso museum and use as citation? If not, I am happy to look for other types of publication.

Lastly, there are websites that hold the same view. I can post these later on here. As for museum work, For example, this link(https://artsandculture.google.com/story/oduk-the-story-of-the-iteso-conqueror/JQICN_PZag-0LQ) has produced this work on the Iteso people based on information found in the Teso museum. If you scroll below, you can see that they credit the Teso museum. There are two museums in Kenya which carry the knowledge of the Iteso people. Everyone finds their source from these two. Let me know how to proceed please?

Best, Joan.Joanafrica (talk) 23:14, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't understand why you reintroduced the unsourced content that was removed. I suggest you join the discussion that is underway on the article's talk page and see what the other two involved editors have to say. M.Bitton (talk) 13:49, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

I am confused. Did you not read my message up above? I am not sure why Wikipedia editors can turn up to be rude sometimes. I just indicated that after I made the correction and cited the musuems (for the second time), I saw you left me a message. After not before. Did you read that? I also asked you about citations. Did you read that too? So maybe sometimes we need to slow down and read to understand why things happen because the explanation is there already. Give some of us grace in maneuvering Wikipedia instead of stating, "I don't understand why you reintroduced the unsourced content that was removed."

The why is explained above kindly. Please I am asking you editors to be a bit kind and read before asking questions that have been answered. Do you work for Wikipedia? You also completely disregarded everything that I've said and didn't even answer a single question. Why do you editors act in this way? I also saw that talk page and I'll add to that conversation. The other editor that's making changes Fyrael, didn't even write the piece in the first place, he has no knowledge of the Teso community and is adding information that is also unsourced. So please as you're asking me to cite information, make sure you check up on everyone who is citing wrong information as well. So confusing! Joanafrica (talk) 19:47, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

@Joanafrica: Yes, I have read what you wrote and no, I don't work for Wikipedia, I'm just a volunteer like everyone else. You disregarded what I said: if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners. At first glance, the Museum source (whose reliability needs to be established) that you cited above does not seem to support what you added to the article, but now that the discussion has been moved here, other editors will have a chance to weigh in. M.Bitton (talk) 20:04, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

I did see your comment on the citation. Please read my comment again as I said I made the correction before coming across your message and seeing you mentioned to cite. That aside, as to your comment about the reliability being established, so what does that mean exactly? How do you establish the reliability of a museum? For example if I cited NASA as a source, how would you establish its reliability? Because both operate in the same way. As for the link you gave, it doesn't mention anything about museums and how those should be used or if these can be used. The name of the museum in Teso (western) is called Kakapel musuem and the other one is in Nairobi. So, based on your comment, what does this mean going forward? Is it possible to reference information found within a museum that details the chronological history of a people or does it strictly have to be a publication? It seems the link you gave mainly references publications as the main source preferred. I am asking to learn - please be kind with your response. Many thanks Joanafrica (talk) 20:38, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Before worrying about the reliability, the source in question needs to support what is being added. Can you quote the part from the source that support what you added? Please, remember to indent your comments. Thanks. M.Bitton (talk) 20:48, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Welcome Additions - Culture

Hello, I have recently rewritten large blocks of the History Section and reorganized the entire article for better reading and pacing. I mostly focused on the history section, but I welcome any sourced additions to the culture, as it is rather lacking. Also, a better opening for the article is also needed. Thanks! Wdonghan (talk) 23:11, 2 November 2021 (UTC)