Talk:Ivanko (boyar)

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Removal of sourced content

Jingiby, this was straight-up WP:IDONTLIKEIT. I provided four sources, none being of Bulgarian nor Romanian authors, thinking it was more than enough and that I could be overdoing it. It has been shown that reliable sources define Ivanko as a Vlach thus the removal of this info and its respective citations is not justifiable under any Wikipedia policy. You will have to bring sources here. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 15:12, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

From what I see, this information comes from Niketas Choniates, a contemporary Byzantine historian. I thus find it hard to dispute this information. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 15:22, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I may be wrong. I am busy at the moment, but I will present sources to support the other thesis as well. And there are such. However, he is certainly a Bulgarian boyar, because his possessions were in Bulgaria. This argument seems slightly pointless to me. Jingiby (talk) 03:07, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Both are not necessarily mutually exclusive. We can attribute him Vlach ethnicity and Bulgarian nationality. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 09:10, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Super Dromaeosaurusр your suggestion seems reasonable to me. Ivanko is listed as a Bulgarian boyar in the index of names by John V. A. Fine (jr.), ‎in The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey on p. 661. Also keep in ming that Ivanko is considered a Slavic name. See Entangled Histories of the Balkans - Volume Three on p. 311-312. Greetings. Jingiby (talk) 04:44, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it does. We could also write that he was one in the article's body, assuming there aren't any other sources which directly refer to him as one, not that he wasn't one obviously. When it comes to the lead though, subjects should be described for what they're the most notable for and that's based on reliable sources. StephenMacky1 (talk) 05:34, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest rewritting as "Vlach boyar of the Second Bulgarian Empire". Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 09:13, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that he be described as a Bulgarian boyar of Vlach descent. Jingiby (talk) 12:53, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That won't work. None of the reliable sources address his origins. It's not an issue for them. We shouldn't approach 12-13th century nationalism from today's perspective. I think the suggestion by Super Dromaeosaurus is good. We could also insert a line that he was a boyar under Asen in the body. StephenMacky1 (talk) 13:07, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That would imply something different, that he was only partially Vlach which is not what the sources say. Vlach should take priority before Bulgarian, as it is clear that he lived before the creation of the Second Bulgarian Empire. He was not a Bulgarian for the whole of his lifetime but he was a Vlach for the whole of it. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 14:57, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have already become entangled in this mess of suggestions. Jingiby (talk) 16:26, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]