Talk:James Dean/Archive 4

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Why wasn't he drafted into the Korean War?

Something odd about that. He and my dad were the same age, and my dad got drafted.Starhistory22 (talk) 07:12, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

From what I recall, Dean was rejected as 4-F due to his being myopic. There's a long-standing rumour that he claimed he was gay to be exempt from serving, but there's no solid basis for that one. SquaredRoot (talk) 01:52, 23 August 2017 (AST)

What an absurdity to raise about James Dean! Tab Hunter was, also, born in 1931 and he wasn't drafted, either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.209.54 (talk) 01:57, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Music About James Dean

It is disappointing to note that musical references of James Dean are removed when a number of songs were written about him. The references to him are included within the body of the song and herein lies the source of reference. Sourcing the song(s) are quite important as a cultural significance of the era.

Would be good to see this recognised under James Dean in the In Culture and Media section. It is a shame to note valuable material being removed when it is an important part of his recognition.

He is the subject of the songs "James Dean" by Eagles and "Mr. James Dean" by Hilary Duff. He is mentioned in the lyrics of many other songs, including "Rock On" by David Essex, "Electrolite" by R.E.M., "Jack and Diane" by John Mellencamp, "Vogue" by Madonna, "We Didn't Start the Fire" by Billy Joel, "Forever" by Skid Row, "American Pie" by Don McLean, "Speechless" by Lady Gaga, "Walk on the Wild Side" by Lou Reed, "Rather Die Young" by Beyoncé, "Choke On This" by Senses Fail, "Blue Jeans" by Lana Del Rey, "Style" by Taylor Swift and "Ghost Town" by Adam Lambert.

Unfortunately, the Culture and Media section inevitably becomes the repository of the most trivial mentions of James Dean in any song, no matter how tenuous the connection, and that tell nothing about James Dean the man, or his effect on culture. Better not to have such a section at all than to have to maintain a watch over what turns into a contest to stuff as many trivial mentions into the article as possible, and most of them unsourced at that. Carlstak (talk) 02:05, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

It's viewpoint that you obviously hold, however when a person has an influence on music written about them:

a.) Many of the songs in referencing the man act as a source - the music is one fundamental source and the lyrics within provide another source, to view this as unsourced material is contradictory to the term

b.) Many of the lyrics in prose describe their viewpoints as artists about the man e.g. James Dean by the Eagles

c.) In many articles on wikipedia the influence or impact of 'notable' persons, groups holds potential interest and bearing for those who have such interests e.g influence of the Beatles or whoever etc. while such view points are perhaps debatable to exclude material which has some relevance denies or precludes any would be reader from researching viable linkages - which is a shame because in a sense any would be reader will be denied the influence such a character inevitably had.

d.) While your viewpoint holds the that "tell nothing about James Dean the man, or his effect on culture" - why would notable artists particularly if they are included on wikipedia pay reference to the man - he has obviously had some impact on such persons

e.) Why are they trivial ? - it belittles the impact that the person had. Why would artists write a song about him if they had no relevance to them or what he represents to them within a song

f.) By omitting in reference to music about the man it is shame to see that this is omitted

[[1]]

Take as an example the Kent State shootings massacre.

A good reader perspective for following references is adopted within this article

Cultural references 6.1 Documentary

6.2 Film and television

6.3 Literature

6.3.1 Plays

6.3.2 Prose

6.4 Music

Such a style may be relevant in this example to highlight documentaries about James Dean, music about James Dean.

In this way you are permitting the reader of wikipedia an ability to research further material if it is of relevant interest to them an in the relevant categories created

I suggest why material is being rejected form wikipedia is that headings for content are in appropriately labelled.

The above example is a good example I believe to research an event, persons etc

From your rationale as you have noted would you suggest that the Kent State Shootings and music related to it is 'trivia'

I would suggest that perhaps the heading needs to be reworded along the lines of the above example rather than what is a bucket for trivia

Better to have a section which is clearly labelled with sub-headings — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.130.240 (talk) 02:45, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

In the song American Pie by Don McClean

When the jester sang for the King and Queen In a coat he borrowed from James Dean And a voice that came from you and me

nb: James Dean in reference to alienated youth and rebellion that fits with Dylan's role in the music of this period.

The contribution of music about James Dean is not mentioned, yet many songs continue to be written about him but why? what did he do? or represent to prompt persons to write about him?

The editorial comments clearly reflect a viewpoint and that which negates the impact that James Dean obviously had for those who were inspired and wrote music about him.

This is therefore an incomplete article about James Dean on Wikipedia with reference to music that has been written about him which is disappointing and sad to note. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.130.240 (talk) 04:01, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

https://www.lyrics.com/serp.php?st=james+dean&p=2 Search results for 'james dean' There are: 359 lyrics, 129 artists, and 100 albums matching James Dean. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.130.240 (talk) 04:12, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

What is quite amazing is that more than an other icon in modern history, as a person who has attracted more songs about them than other celebrities such as JFK, Marilyn Monroe etc.

More songs are written with lyrics which include James Dean lyrics than any other icon or celebrity including John F. Kennedy and other icons. Why? To have a song written about you would be quite an acknowledgement?

Lyrics.com »

'james dean' 359 lyrics, 129 artists, and 100 albums matching james dean.

'john f kennedy' 279 lyrics, 116 artists, and 100 albums matching john f kennedy.

'jfk' 239 lyrics, 2 artists, and 3 albums matching jfk.

'marilyn monroe' 172 lyrics, 71 artists, and 100 albums matching marilyn monroe.

'elvis presley' 160 lyrics, 28 artists, and 100 albums matching elvis presley.

'brad pitt' 104 lyrics, 80 artists, and 22 albums matching brad pitt.

'john lennon' * 196 lyrics, 112 artists, and 100 albums matching john lennon.

'marlon brando' 128 lyrics, 18 artists, and 1 album matching marlon brando.

'clark gable' 65 lyrics, 102 artists, and 100 albums matching clark gable.

The irony of this is that person has had more influence on songs created than anyone else - but Why?

Unfortunately,

"the Culture and Media section inevitably becomes the repository of the most trivial mentions of James Dean in any song, no matter how tenuous the connection," - if it is that trivial why would people bother to write or include lyrics about a person?

" and that tell nothing about James Dean the man, or his effect on culture". a song is typically an expression of thought and prose with music songs are typically about someone, something, political, abstract or otherwise to have a song written about oneself is an accolade or recognising an element of a person's influence

"Better not to have such a section at all than to have to maintain a watch over what turns into a contest to stuff as many trivial mentions into the article as possible"

It is acknowledged that material on Wikipedia needs to be referenced and vetted however where such material has clearly been sourced and researched it is disappointing to see that such material is rejected for any relevance when to the contrary such an icon has had on influence, more importantly why would songs be written about a person from 60 years ago be written today ?

Something inevitably about the person would have inspired a songwriter to write a song Youthful, Rebellious, Fashionable, Handsome etc

"and most of them unsourced at that" the song itself is a source and the lyrics are the relevant source material — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.130.240 (talk) 05:13, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, your double-spaced wall of text does not make a convincing case, and besides being hard to read and a copyright violation of text written by Jim Fann, it illustrates how thin the content of those mentions of James Dean actually are. A passing reference to James Dean in a song doesn't make it about James Dean. You say "yet many songs continue to be written about him", but you haven't named one. The only song you've mentioned actually about him, "James Dean" by the Eagles, is 43 years old. "Mr. James Dean" by Hilary Duff is a bitter, ironic song that's not about James Dean; it's about a former lover spurned by the narrator in context of the song's mocking narrative: "There will never be another James Dean, You'll never be James Dean." Carlstak (talk) 05:21, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

In summary:-

The Wikipedia entry in reference to James Dean is incomplete without the acknowledgement of the many songs which will have been written about him While the entries are complete and quite exhaustive in every other aspect a major acknowledgement is overlooked via the songs about him and why songs were written about him? As a youthful rebellious icon and all the attributes held about teenage life were embodied with rock and roll and of this era As such musicians and teenagers could relate to this icon which prompted songs to be written To overlook or negate any aspect of musical works about him, his iconic image or cultural influence within the 50's decade is an omission relating to his life. While a book, an article or stories and documentaries can be written about a person's life the same applies via song and prose More songs have been written about him than another person yet no mention is made to this in the Wikipedia entry The significance of the omission of reference to music here is a significant one

In time no doubt someone will have the courage to recognise - oh he had indeed had an influence on many songs There are a number of cultural references of and to James Dean I trust somebody will in due course recognise the many songs written as attribute / reference and therefore address this matter in the future — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.130.240 (talk) 05:53, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps an answer to the intrigue: A post relating to why are more songs written about him than anytime before..why and what's happening

Discussion: "What is with the fascination of "James Dean" in lyrics...

(I don't particularly understand it, and I find it quite cheap and annoying. He was an icon in the 40s and 50s, and has been dug up from the annex to be included in today's pop music (I suppose some could make the argument that pop music doesn't tend to its lyrics as closely as other genres, but let's forgive that school of thought.)

It's not that I have any particular hate towards pop culture references, but this one seemed out of left field as I had never heard of James Dean before, and now he's become relevant in a world of music that most listeners would never hear of otherwise.

Included are 3 songs that I have heard a reference to James Dean. I don't doubt that there are more, but these are some of the newer songs that I have heard. Style - Taylor Swift, New Americana - Halsey , Gorgeous - X Ambassadors It's not that I don't like these songs - I guess this whole 'James Dean' thing is a pet peeve of mine. Anyone have thoughts on this?

Answer 1: How's it a cheap reference? He's the ultimate symbol of the exuberance of youth, and his legacy captures the duality of young death: tragedy and legend.

Answer 2: He was cool, he was stylish, and he died in his prime. Just like Marilyn Monroe, Jimi Hendrix et al ... that's all. They died at the height of their fame and became legends.

Answer 3: James Dean only starred in a few films, most notably Rebel Without A Cause. This coupled with the fact that he died so young in a car accident yet had a huge impact on 50's teenage culture is what kept him relevant for so many years.

Answer 4: He is the personification of the romanticized notion to "live fast and die young" and it's always been a prominent theme but it has picked up recently.

Answer 5: He represents something larger than life now. The name harkens a bunch of different attitudes, feelings, and thoughts (as others have posted), so it's a very quick and maybe cheap way for artist to articulate their thoughts in a concise manner.

Answer 6: Purely from a lyrical perspective, his name has a cool sound too. Two syllables, plus a lot of things rhyme or share a sound with 'Dean'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.130.240 (talk) 06:11, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

This rather bizarre maundering argues with a straw man set up by yourself. No one has used the word "cheap" except you. You ask "How's it a cheap reference?" as if you're responding to someone's comment—but you wrote it. You've put "What is with the fascination of "James Dean" in quotes as if you're quoting someone, but you're the one who asked the question. This is a disingenuous way to argue, and doesn't help your case, any more than does plagiarizing Jim Fann.

Not that it should matter, but there are few more devoted fans of James Dean than I am, so all the noise about how great and influential he is doesn't mean a thing to someone who drove a thousand miles to pay respects at his grave. I care deeply about the subject and this article, and that is exactly why I abhor adding an endless list of every song ever written that simply mentions him. Carlstak (talk) 16:04, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

JAMES DEAN: Incomplete: in contrast to similar icons such as Marilyn Monroe on Wikipedia

You miss the point and I would suggest your editorial rights on this are not only personal but biased.

It is not did-ingenious to represent the views of others and hear what they have to say. i.e. don't listen to me listen to what these people to have say, but it is clear that you are not taking valid comments on board. I will therefore try to explain in the context of other examples within wikipedia which should assist and provide you relevant examples on which to compare

One which is an event and another a similar icon of the era. Please note the references and headings that have been established as a follow on form the main topic i.e. the sub topics. These are based on factional and sourced material (otherwise they would not be included)

From a viewpoint as expressed in other articles in wikipedia e.g. Kent State Shootings [[2]]

The use of sub-headings to divide reference material

1 Documentary

2 Film and television

3 Literature

3.1 Graphic novels

3.2 Plays

3.3 Poetry

3.4 Prose

4 Music

5 Photography

6 Other Cultural References

7 References

This is a list of depictions of and references to the Kent State shootings in popular culture.

Whether you agree or not that music related to James Dean is irrelevant. By the fact that you are not including such reference is editing which is prohibiting a person reading to explore further material based on your own viewpoints and opinions

I would submit that based on your viewpoint and opinion the article on JD is incomplete

A more direct or analogous and relevant comparison would be for example Marilyn Monore

A movie star Glamorous Movie icon Died relatively young

Look at all the plethora of references to her, yet in contrast with your viewpoint on James Dean

Marilyn Monroe [[3]]

The use of sub-headings to divide and list reference material Note the numerous headings for an iconic figure

1 Advertising

2 Animation

3 Architecture

4 Art

5 Celebrities as Monroe

6 Editorial cartoons

7 Fashion

8 Film

9 Graphic novels

10 Internet

11 Literature

12 Music

13 Music videos

14 Opera

15 Photography

16 Poetry

17 Polls

18 Popular culture

19 Radio

20 Television

21 Theater

22 Video game

23 See also

24 References

25 External links

It would appear that you have made one rule up towards JD in contrast to others such as Marilyn Monroe. Articles in reference to other icons within the era also note: Humphrey Bogart, Marlon Brando

Look at all the songs written about Marilyn Monroe: whether you like them or not is irrelevant, the fact that they are displayed and listed is. You are missing the latter impact such icons may have whether you like the trivia of songs is your own viewpoint. Whether I follow James Dean or not is irrelevant, however I did note that there were songs written about him a fact which you wish to ignore and omit from the article. What surprised me further was that there were more songs written about him than any other icon (a fact you choose to ignore).

In contrast to other entries this is not following the standards in similar examples such as Marilyn Monroe as a useful reference.

With headings from architecture to video games. This is not a complete entry therefore for James Dean and the best suggestion I can therefore offer is to reference Marilyn Monroe in popular culture which is in stark contrast to James Dean

Readers of this entry can draw their own comparisons and conclusions

a.) There is little or no reference to the songs written about James Dean (which is not included in this article entry) b.) In contrast Marilyn Monroe (a similar icon) has many songs which have been written about her c.) More importantly and which is of concern is that editorial basis is prohibiting the introduction of relevant soruced material to to subejct matter is not being displayed for further readership d.) That standards as set elsewhere are not being adhered to or followed (whteher you like the songs

Look at all the songs written about Marilyn Monroe [[4]]

Look at all the songs written about James Dean (not one !! is listed) [[5]]

If you note as you do " Not that it should matter, but there are few more devoted fans of James Dean than I am, so all the noise about how great and influential he is doesn't mean a thing to someone who drove a thousand miles to pay respects at his grave. I care deeply about the subject and this article, and that is exactly why I abhor adding an endless list of every song ever written that simply mentions him"

Your viewpoint is therefore in direct contrast to the many contributions of songs that are noted for Marilyn Monroe. If you "care deeply about the subject" then surely you would include as many references to the person as you could with relevance. You rationale to me therefore would appear biased, as you discredit any references which are relevant to a person.

For example and consider this, If someone says 'hold on a minute a song was written about James Dean should this not be included on his wikipedia entry and then someone comes back and says this is not relevant and is trivia and as editor I don't want to include it' - how do you think people will react ?

The fact that others would post or research material on JD does not mean to state that they should care any less than you might be on the subject matter.

I'm not aan ardent James Dean fan but I do care and respect that material credited to him and his life is not being listed in a proper manner and way (i.e. similar to Marilyn Monroe as an example) and this should include music, documentaries, TV, books etc everything whether you like it in your words (abhor) it or not. As a cultural icon a ripple effect of his influence has been spread into a wide circle and across time. This is in of itself perhaps explicable but relevant in that he has as much impact on some people today as he did then.

The article on James Dean therefore as a reference in contrast to Marilyn Monroe as a comparison is INCOMPLETE and could be made more complete. I cite Marilyn Monroe as there are some distinct similarities.

[[6]] "James Dean's life and persona have been used in film, television, music, the arts, and by other celebrities"

These final points are made as an observation and which is clearly disappointing in that editorial basis and opinions are preventing relevant material being displayed in a similar way as shown relating to Mariln Monroe i.e. standards differ in presentation and style according to editorial authorship.

There is little point in any further discussion on this topic as the point has been made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.130.240 (talk) 20:01, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

IP, of course you completely ignore what I actually wrote, and continue your gambit of misrepresenting my comments when you say to me: "You miss the point... It is not did-ingenious to represent the views of others and hear what they have to say." I did not say that it is "disingenuous to represent the views of others and hear what they have to say." I said (in so many words) that it's disingenuous to set up a straw man and argue with it by putting remarks that I didn't make in quotes and pretending that you're responding to comments made by me. You're doing it again, right here, except this time you left out the quotation marks. You're still averring that I said something I didn't say.

Your careless writing is repetitive, verbose, and pompous, and because you refuse to follow WP convention in formatting, it's even harder to follow. Your walls of text dominate the page and obscure any replies made by other editors, which, like misrepresenting my statements, is not collegial. Carlstak (talk) 23:47, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

You are obviously very interested about James Dean being mentioned in music and popular culture. This material would be more important to the topic if WP:SECONDARY sources were in the habit of talking about how Dean was the subject of many songs. Can you show that this angle is covered in reliable sources? That independent observers have listed the songs he appears in? Binksternet (talk) 21:48, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Binksternet the most sensible and constructive comment so far.

There is an absence of reference to music here relating to James Dean. Many of the songs reference his life within the context and lyrics of the song. e.g James Dean by the Eagles is a good example

[[7]]

the references around Marilyn Monroe are a good example of linkages and reference material..

[[8]] [[9]] [[10]]

James Dean perhaps deserves more credit for the many references that have occurred since his passing i.e. music, culture,fashion for example. I do not think this is being properly explored here in the same way as e.g. Marilyn Monroe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.130.240 (talk) 00:42, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Many songs act as a threnody - memorial to persons or events [[11]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.130.240 (talk) 00:47, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

The comment from Binksternet is a valid one

Why and how does he appear in so many songs i.e "how Dean was the subject of many songs" Mainly because of the car crash, driving too fast, rebelliousness, iconic movie status it all provided material to include within a song and to provide perfect imagery for the song with an established icon. He obviously had an impact on music that was written about him and many years after his death. To dismiss such songs as trivia is nonsense as many of these songs were quite notable in their own right American Pie - Don McClean, Walk on the Wild Side - Lou Reed

The tribute is within the song via lyrics and context

1. Walk on the Wild Side - Lou Reed: "Jackie is just speeding away, Thought she was James Dean for a day, Then I guess she had to crash Valium would have helped that bash."

Reference to James Dean before his death speeding away.

2. Vogue - Madonna: "Greta Garbo, and Monroe, Dietrich and DiMaggio, Marlon Brando, Jimmy Dean'Bold text', On the cover of a magazine."

Reference to James Dean iconic status on magazines in the movies

3. American Pie - Don McClean: "Now for 10 years we've been on our own, and moss grows fat on a rolling stone. But that's not how it used to be, when the jester sang for the king and queen, In a coat be borrowed from 'James Dean, in a voice that came from you and me."

Reference to fact that Bob Dylan appeared similar on cover of album cover to James Dean look

4. His 'n' Hers - Pulp: "She asked me what made me frightened, and I said I'm frightened of Belgian chocolates, I'm frightened of pot pourri, I'm frightened of James Dean posters, I'm frightened of 26 inch screens."

Reference to iconic status of James Dean on star / icon posters

5. James Dean - The Eagles: "You were the lowdown rebel if there ever was, Even if you had no cause."

Numerous references to character within song and the era

6. Electrolite - REM: "Hollywood is under me. I'm Martin Sheen, I'm Steve McQueen, I'm Jimmy Dean."

Reference to movie iconic status of James Dean and comparisons with other notable similar actors

7.American Boy - Chris Issak: "I'm no James Dean baby, But you know I care, If you ever need me, I'll be there, always there."

Reference to movie iconic status of James Dean and looks status

8. Eggs On Plate - Iggy Pop: "Why did you leave your sticker on my, $42 and fifty cent suite, In James Dean's bed?"

9. Under the Gun - The Killers: "Stupid on the streets of London, James Dean in the rain, Without her it's not the same."

Reference to cars and girls

10. Peach Trees - Rufus Wainwright: "And I really do wish you were here next to me, cause I'm going to see James Dean, There I will be Under the peach trees with him."

Albums: James Dean: Tribute to a Rebel James Dean Era A Tribute to James Dean [Bonus Tracks] Forever James Dean James Dean — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.130.240 (talk) 04:19, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

"A passing reference to James Dean in a song doesn't make it about James Dean. You say "yet many songs continue to be written about him", but you haven't named one. The only song you've mentioned actually about him, "James Dean" by the Eagles, is 43 years old."

There are many songs about him and notable ones at that as listed above

"Unfortunately, the Culture and Media section inevitably becomes the repository of the most trivial mentions of James Dean in any song, no matter how tenuous the connection, and that tell nothing about James Dean the man, or his effect on culture. Better not to have such a section at all than to have to maintain a watch over what turns into a contest to stuff as many trivial mentions into the article as possible, and most of them unsourced at that."

Marilyn Monroe another icon has many songs about her listed does this make these trivial mentions? James Dean has more credits than MM.

It makes a Legacy and Iconic Status, Culture and Media section ironic that the legacy of work produced in his honour or with lyrical representations are noted mentioned. No music mentioned for James Dean: but there is music about him and with lyrics about him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.130.240 (talk) 04:31, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

IP, you are deluded if you think anyone is actually reading these ridiculous walls of text you insist on posting. You'll persuade no one this way, and just create the impression that you're incompetent to be editing the article, which by all indications would be an accurate impression. Carlstak (talk)

So it looks like IP 81.147.130.240 from the Devon area has nothing to offer in the way of third-party reliable sources that say songs about Dean are an important part of his legacy. Binksternet (talk) 05:42, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Here are a few refs on the topic: book 1, book 2, book 3, book 4, book 5. Dr. K. 06:15, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

I remain opposed to the addition of a list of songs which will inevitably grow into a poorly maintained indiscriminate collection of trivia. This has happened in the past, and I was one of the few editors who seemed interested in doing the work of trimming the ever-growing cruft. If a consensus were reached to add sourced information about songs that actually have something significant to say about James Dean the man, preferably in a non-list form, the essay WP:POPCULTURE would be a good guide. I suggest that a mere passing reference to James Dean in a song doesn't qualify it as relevant to the subject.

With all due respect to Dr. K, the book Too Fast to Live, Too Young to Die - James Dean's Final Hours has only a list of musicians who have referenced James Dean; David Essex's "Rock On" is the one song it mentions, saying only that he "climaxes with a recitation of the actor's name: Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean, Rock on, Rock on", which is hardly profound or even interesting.

The brief discussion of James Dean tribute songs in Warren Beath's The Death of James Dean would be worthy as a reference. David Dalton's James Dean: The Mutant King discusses James Dean's influence on rock 'n' roll, but his assertion that by the early '70s "James Dean had emerged as a primary hero of rock culture" is short on explication beyond reproducing the lyrics of David Essex's "Rock On", which seems to be the ne plus ultra of songs about James Dean, although it is a highly impressionistic, barely literate summoning of the id of rock 'n' roll that tells almost nothing about James Dean.

James Dean didn't rock 'n' roll—Elvis hadn't even recorded his first single when Jimmy died. James Dean listened to Bartók, Stravinsky, and Billie Holiday. Carlstak (talk) 06:39, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. The reference does not claim that James Dean rocked or rolled or any combination of the above two terms. But it is apparent that there are reliable sources that speak of James Dean's influence on rock and roll. I think a suitable statement can be edited into the article using these, and perhaps additional, sources as to Dean's impact on music and songs. Just to be clear, it doesn't have to be a pop-culture-type list of songs. Only the songs mentioned in the RS should be covered. Dr. K. 17:05, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

I assume you're being facetious about the rock 'n' roll, Dr.K. I was referring to an excerpt of the lyrics of David Essex's song, "Rock On", which were reproduced (part of them inaccurately) on page 333 of Dalton's The Mutant King:

Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean. Rock on, Rock on, Rock on.

The song isn't even about James Dean per se, his name is merely repeated in the refrain, apparently to evoke his eternal cool, yet Dalton treats it as an anthem to a "rock 'n' roll" movement supposedly begun by James Dean, which is utter nonsense, and why I said James Dean didn't rock 'n' roll. I was making the point that Dalton himself made in his introduction: "James Dean preceded rock 'n' roll." Dalton is not always reliable on the particulars of Jimmy's life, and his mystical, magical interpretation of his allure is complete, albeit entertaining, bullshit. "Cult of Osiris" indeed.

Will Scheibel in American Stranger discusses Dean's effect on popular culture, but regarding his influence on rock and roll says only: "No wonder that a generation inspired by Beat poetry, jazz, and rock and roll would identify with a juvenile delinquent played by James Dean in Rebel Without a Cause."

Warren Beath gets creative about Jimmy's death in The Death of James Dean, and delivers " more bullshit: 'Tribute songs' haunted the airwaves. The main metaphor was astral. Their subliminal consolation was that Dean had died, but survived on another plane." He says nothing about the influence of James Dean on rock music, nor does Sam Riley or Keith Elliot Greenberg, who merely list some songs that mention Dean. There really isn't any scholarly discussion of the subject and very little in popular literature that isn't caca. Carlstak (talk) 00:46, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

You said: James Dean didn't rock 'n' roll and used an edit-summary "Jimmy was not a rocker", to which I appropriately replied: Yes, thanks. The reference does not claim that James Dean rocked or rolled or any combination of the above two terms. But it is apparent that there are reliable sources that speak of James Dean's influence on rock and roll. What, in my reply made you think I was being allegedly "facetious"? Let's keep this discussion civil. As far as the rest of your analysis, I happen to think that these sources are reliable, and I object to your terminology such as "caca" which I find inappropriate and uncivil. One doesn't have to write a research paper or a Ph.D, dissertation to be considered a reliable source. But I am not here to bicker about sources while being subjected to uncivil comments and terminology. This should go to RSN. Also no pinging is needed. Dr. K. 01:00, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

My friend, I did not intend to be uncivil, and I did not mean to direct my comments at you personally, although I can see why you might interpret them that way. I meant "facetious" in the sense of "to be humorous or funny". I've always thought that "if someone is being facetious they're being playful with an edge." I hesitated to ping you, but thought that my reply might get lost in this sea of so many walls of text. I've blocked bots in my watchlist, and the autosign bot is kept busy here, causing those revisions to disappear in my watchlist. I thought perhaps others might be doing the same. I apologize for not making all this clear. I will admit that I'm a bit put out having had my comments misrepresented by another party.

Regarding my use of the words "bullshit" and "caca", please understand that I like David Dalton's writing, own The Mutant King, and enjoyed reading it. I found it inspiring, in spite of the nonsense, and even added a cite of it in the James Dean article. I'm just saying that the bits I referred to are examples of Dalton being extravagant, and he can get pretty wild in his interpretations. Beath gets pretty far out with the mystical stuff, as well. Note that I said earlier his book would be worthy as a reference. I do not oppose your suggestion, but sources like these have to be used with caution.

Please understand also that I'm not philosophically opposed to popular culture sections in articles; I wrote the Legend of Billy the Kid article, which is almost exclusively devoted to Billy the Kid's place in popular culture. I would even be willing to write such a section as you describe, with careful use of sources. Carlstak (talk) 02:11, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Dear Carlstak, as soon I saw the words "My friend" in your reply to me, I realised I had made a mistake. I should not have addressed an old friend this way. After such a long time, I thought that our excellent past interactions had faded somewhat, although, despite the slight tension, my respect for you remains undiminished. Sorry for mentioning civility in my response to you. I have struck that part of my reply above. As far as the pinging, please feel free to ping me anytime. :) The fact is, we have never disagreed on any topic related to James Dean that we have discussed so far. I agree with you on this topic also, that pop culture lists should be avoided. The only thing I ask is, if you can cobble together a sentence that such and such song or songs, have been inspired by James Dean, or what have you. But even that request, is not attached to any expectations. If you feel there are not enough RS to write such a sentence, out of respect for your work here, I drop the subject. It was very nice talking to you. Take care. Dr. K. 03:31, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

My dear friend, I must take responsibility for any misunderstanding between us. I will be careful in future to reply in a manner less likely to be misunderstood, especially when resorting to more profane expression than I customarily use on WP (I curse like a sailor in real life). I will be happy to put together something along the lines you suggest, and I'm sure I can use the refs you found in a satisfactory way. Of course, you remain an editor I hold in high esteem, and you are welcome to make changes as you see fit. I will start on this immediately. All the best, Carlstak (talk) 14:54, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

No need to explain dear Carlstak. The perception of the written word can sometimes lead someone to the wrong conclusions, as was the case here. In any case, as I have observed in the past, your expertise and in-depth knowledge of James Dean is both respected and undisputed. I have no doubt that whatever you come up with will be a great addition to this article. Take care my friend. Dr. K. 19:14, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you K. for your sensible and constructive comments so far, and at least the theme or nub of the message has been understood and being followed, contrary to various opinions and viewpoints noted. I have no dispute with the fact that James Dean had little influence on rock n' roll or the music that followed.

What is perplexing about such comments in contrast with other entries such as Marilyn Monroe in popular culture is the impact such an icon has had thereafter. For example Candle in the Wind written by Elton John and the songs written many years after an icon has passed. Marilyn Monroe had little influence on rock music either. The point that seems to be overlooked by evangelistic comments, irrespective of such purist viewpoints that his status has obviously had impact in a number of areas such as fashion, culture, songs post James Dean. As highlighted in an entry for Marilyn Monroe there are whole list of sub sections dedicated to her in popular culture.

If you elect to preclude or omit any reference to songs written about James Dean then as stated this is really not a full account of the impact that James Dean has had on popular culture and the title legacy and iconic status is somewhat diluted.

Perhaps to alleviate such 'purist concerns' re James Dean that in a similar manner to Marilyn Monroe his legacy and impact on popular culture may be an important link to consider.

It is clear from all the comments that there are not going to be any references to James Dean or songs written about him. By this fact you are therefore 'negating' the legacy of songs and work that has occurred since his passing. He his obviously inspired many songwriter to write songs about him in much the same way as songs written about Marilyn Monroe.

While honouring the biography of James Dean as noted and to maintain his status as intact. The comments that he did not listen to or like rock and roll is irrelevant.

It is as least heartening to note that the input from such comments has had some impact in the sense that a recognition towards popular culture is occurring under this thread. The key theme as highlighted herein is the influence he has had re. popular culture in a similar way to Marilyn Monroe, such references can be kept away from the main source article so as not too dilute or digress from the story of the man.

In reference to Carlstak while you present a convincing defence and argument you fail to note or explain why so many songs have been written for Marilyn Monroe as a comparative popular icon. Many of these songs are written after her death, and she had little influence on rock music

From these last comments it would seem apparent that the message is percolating through. A suggestions to consider would be some form of link as with Marilyn Monroe in terms of popular culture, in this way this maintains the purity of the story re. James Dean but also has a link to the legacy and popular culture he has created. This would permit contributors to add like the headings for Marilyn Monroe under popular culture the impact his life has had on music for example.

The Marilyn Monroe example provides a good template example as a reference base since it has been noted that there are offshoots of influence of fashion from James Dean (jeans, T-shirts, bomber jackets) yes, there are articles written on this !!

This thread started because I noted that a song James Dean (song) by the Eagles whom I happen to like wrote about the man and I thought it might be a good idea to include such a reference (how deluded I was !!) however to not have some form of reference in popular culture as a link from legacy would be an interesting sub topic which would permit contributors to add their pieces. In this way it keeps the main biography clean about the man but with a link to James in popular culture

The use of sub-headings to divide and list reference material Note the numerous headings for an iconic figure 1 Advertising 2 Animation 3 Architecture 4 Art 5 Celebrities as Monroe 6 Editorial cartoons 7 Fashion 8 Film 9 Graphic novels 10 Internet 11 Literature 12 Music 13 Music videos 14 Opera 15 Photography 16 Poetry 17 Polls 18 Popular culture 19 Radio 20 Television 21 Theater 22 Video game 23 See also 24 References 25 External links

Many of the songs listed under Marilyn Monroe are perhaps irrelevant but someone has obviously been inspired to write a song about her and they are listed under her WP entry Marilyn_Monroe and Marilyn_Monroe in popular_culture

From review of MM's linkage this seems to be a good way to handle her legacy - it keeps the main content of her life in focus with a fitting biography yet permits a notable list of references to her legacy. While perhaps an endless list of songs are attributed with lyrics or reference (at least they are mentioned)

Perhaps something along these lines may act as a template for progressing this idea. IMO this therefore permits contributors to list relevant material without it detracting from the main article of James Dean.

I would suggest that prior to posting all sorts of comments, you take some time to review such links and perhaps with some careful editing which no doubt you are capable of devising can afford James Dean a legacy in a popular culture link. Perhaps an editor clever enough to think up a way that you can permit this and also preserve the nature of content on JDs entry.

I think User talk:Dr.K. you are on the right track in understanding this theme without detracting from James Dean, his life and works

There is a legacy from James Dean's life and influence many years after his death in a similar way to Marilyn, yet which appears to be quite stark in comparison. Music is one aspect via the songs that have written about him.

What is so curious is that music contributions are permitted for Marilyn Monroe and the number of songs about her yet there is no reference permitted for James Dean in terms of music written about him or which references and with lyrics about him (and more songs have been written about him than MM) why?

Perhaps someone can explain why more music is listed for Marilyn Monroe at Marilyn_Monroe_in_popular_culture and there is not a single reference to James Dean with any music ?

It would seem that the legacy aspect or influence in works (music, fashion etc) decades after his abrupt death is neglected. The key influence of a person is what aspect of their life has had impact later on via various cultural references i.e. what has been the impact i.e. legacy of his life in music, culture, fashion etc

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.130.240 (talk) 19:50, 8 November 2017 (UTC) 

Hey IP, this is not the Marilyn Monroe talk page and we aren't concerned with her article. I don't need to explain anything, and your attempts to bludgeon your way (that is, to force your point of view by the sheer volume of your comments) into getting what you want are way past tedious and wasting our time so that you can grandstand goofily. Carlstak (talk) 20:23, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your constructive contributions: User talk:Dr.K. and Binksternet. The pages relating to The Mutant King were informative. Undoubtedly while he was not involved in rock n' roll, he evidently had a major influence on musicians at such time and with songs many decades beyond. John Lennon who noted that without whom “The Beatles would never have existed”.

It is therefore a shame that such references to his influence in pop culture and rock music at such time and beyond have not been included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.130.240 (talk) 01:22, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi Carlstak I note from above that you mention you wrote an article re. Billy the Kid which was well presented and informative. If in some manner you are able to present a story re. James Dean in a similar manner no doubt this would be an interesting read. I am not sure how you would go about it, however if you do embark up on such a mission, and if it is like the Billy the Kid article I am sure it will be an interesting read.

What is intriguing about such characters is why such myths and legends become iconic? - a cultural icon. Weaving a story together with factual and informative material, will no doubt be quite a task, what is their legacy?, why is he so iconic re. rock and roll?, even though he was never directly associated with it. Why are so many songs written after his death?. Why was he symbolic to these times? It would appear there are numerous inferences, quotes etc, but to weave a story in a way which is informative about the times, the impact, the legacy etc.

It would appear there is obviously a story here, I respect the fact that you are preserving the story of James Dean in a factual and in an informative way. Threading together the strands of links will perhaps be a challenge. I noticed one early reference though not directly associated with it is from James Dean:

i.e.... One early role, for the CBS series Omnibus in the episode "Glory in the Flower", saw Dean portraying the type of disaffected youth he would later portray in Rebel Without a Cause. This summer 1953 program was also notable for featuring the song "Crazy Man, Crazy", one of the first dramatic TV programs to feature rock and roll.

Perhaps it is irrelevant, but he was evidently right at the start of it at the time 1953 and before he tragically died before it became popular, yet his iconic status lived onto influence others such as John Lennon, Elvis to a certain degree to make a name in movies etc. The 'jester' coat in American Pie for example that Bob Dylan wears borrowed from James Dean. It would appear there are many strands and facets of influence that people identified with and picked up upon.

If you do decide to embark upon such an endeavour, I am not sure if I will be able to assist but perhaps some of the above dialogue material will provide some pointers, with references and music may provide some assistance. I am sure editors such as User talk:Dr.K. and Binksternet would be supportive of such a task and with relevant critique and input.

In much the same way as Billy the Kid perhaps James Dean as a cultural icon.

I hope this is helpful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.130.240 (talk) 20:06, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Edit notice vs. WP:Hidden note on LGBT category stuff

Koavf, regarding this, hidden notes are usually more effective than editing notices. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:29, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

@Flyer22 Reborn: Source? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:58, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Koavf, do stop being silly. You know very well that this is not something that requires a citation. Wikipedians know many things about Wikipedia via editing experience -- editing the site themselves. The fact remains that there is no guideline or policy-based reason to not have that hidden note where editors and readers are very likely to see it. Your ping didn't work, by the way. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:35, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

@Flyer22 Reborn: Thanks for the note on the ping. I am asking because I think we can also agree that a proliferation of the same note repeatedly is not useful. The solution here is to make the edit notice more obvious by changing sizes or colors. You said something is "usually" true and I'm asking why you think that--I'm not asking anything unreasonable. If you are saying that it is purely from subjective experience and not even corroborating with someone else, then that a legitimate source but not for normative behavior across the site. So do you have any source other than your experience on this occasion? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:49, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't need to be pinged by you since I started this section and this article is on my watchlist. And regarding this, pings only work with a fresh signature. As for "usually more effective," you were being unreasonable when you pointedly stated "Source?." That's like me asking you for a source for your statement that "there is no reason for this to be here *and* in the edit notice." My source is my years and years of experience editing this site. I know that you have edited this site for years and years as well, but your edits are not usually tied to substantial article editing. Your "So do you have any source other than your experience on this occasion?" question applies to you as well. Pinging other article watchers for their opinions: Carlstak, Binksternet and Dr.K.. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:08, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

And if editing notices were always or mostly sufficient, we wouldn't have hidden notes at all on this site. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:15, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm in favor of the belt-and-braces solution, with the hidden comment remaining in the article text. Binksternet (talk) 23:19, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

I see no reason why the hidden note shouldn't remain. Carlstak (talk) 00:16, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Sexuality → Personal life

Should the Personality section be moved into the Personal life section rather than Legacy? — HĐ (talk) 12:12, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

HD, there is no "Personality" section, so I assume you meant the "Sexuality" subsection under the "Legacy and iconic status" heading. I believe that a case could be made for placing "Sexuality" under the "Personal life" heading, but note the "iconic status" part that follows the word "Legacy". Because James Dean has been embraced as an icon of sexual freedom by many in the so-called LBGQT "community" (the number of letters in that arbitrary acronym keeps growing), it seems appropriate to address his sexuality as part of his legacy rather than of his personal life, because we will never know all the facts about his sexual life. We have conflicting accounts by people who knew him, including the film director Nicholas Ray, the actor Martin Landau, his roommate William Bast, and the actress Elizabeth Taylor. We have the testimony of numerous other people who knew James Dean that he had sex with men, but even if he did, it doesn't necessarily mean he was homosexual. It doesn't seem proper to put what amounts to speculation about his sexuality in a "Personal life" section, because we will never know for sure what kind of sex life James Dean actually had. And really, why should it matter? I think Dean understood that his sexual ambiguity was part of his allure, and probably used it to his advantage in his career and in his personal life. Carlstak (talk) 15:41, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

My mistake, I mistyped Sexuality as Personality. I agree his sexuality has been a contributor to his legacy, but the majority of the current section lists accounts of witnesses/opinions regarding Dean's sexuality, and that does not explicitly explain how they illustrate Dean's influence as a "gay icon". That said, the section appears to me as detailing Dean's personal life on how he was perceived by his peers rather than his definite legacy/iconic status. — HĐ (talk) 04:26, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

In the end, when all is written, Dean is remembered as "Forever Young." The sexuality routine is irrelevant as he was, obviously, bisexual, regardless of Why? He played with men, to be sure, but where are the mentions of him playing with women?

He made three films...all of which were variations of the same theme of a rebel who rebels because he is young, has strong arms and can stir-the-pot, tirelessly! That is not always profound because it wears rather thinly and begins to typecast the individual. He didn't last long and so, he is relegated to the pantheon of "What He Might Have Become If He Lived Long Enough?"

Also, if Elizabeth Taylor specified that he was gay, he was. Taylor had a long standing relationship with gay males such as Roddy MacDowell; Montgomery Cliff, Michael Jackson and Lawrence Harvey; La Liz always knew a Gay Boy when she saw one; hence, her opinion of Dean is bona fide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.209.54 (talk • contribs)

Next time, try reading the article. The whole personal life section is about his relationships with women. Carlstak (talk) 21:19, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

The legacy section is titled "Legacy and iconic status." I think that debate about his sexuality fits best there, where it already is. The debate about his sexuality is a part of his legacy, and isn't truly his personal life. It's people debating an aspect of his personal life. And how to cover this material has been extensively discussed before. The current setup is the result of that discussion (or discussions). Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 23:09, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Regarding the pending film Finding Jack, and its place in the story of James Dean

Is it appropriate to list the film as part of James Dean's (canonical) filmography? I am asking this because, first off, it is beyond debate that James Dean is not personally involved with the film, since the film is yet to be released and he has been dead for, as of this post, almost 65 years. Secondly, the film is vowing to use recreated imagery of James Dean lifted and visually influenced by pre-existing footage and pictures of Dean; therefore, only a derivative image of Dean is in the film, and not Dean himself. Third, there was no (known) idea nor concept of this film involving James Dean when he was alive, nor was there any indication contemporary to his life regarding any possible interest from him in a "Finding Jack" film or likewise film concept. Fourthly, it is extraordinarily hard for a deceased person to agree to a film project such as this, as well as to dedicate labor thereto; it is also similarly difficult for a person to consent to his image/likeness being used for this purpose after almost 2/3 of a century of being deceased (I state this with the full understanding that the James Dean estate did grant permission in this regard).

If Finding Jack should be mentioned at all as a part of Dean's filmography, it should at least be contextualized in a way to separate it from his three canonical films, his TV show appearances, and other uncredited roles that he put actual acting labor into. Seeing Finding Jack in its current table makes me feel like the film is being treated as part of the same plane as the others, when the contexts of his three proper films (and other output) versus Finding Jack are absolutely disparate. Finding Jack, at least in literal terms, is not a revival of Dean's acting career, and is definitely not raising him from the dead.

To conclude, I believe that Finding Jack should be, at least, mentioned in the article, but that, due to the fact that it is beyond possibility for him personally to be involved in the project, considering it a bona fide part of his filmography is factually and historically problematic. What does everyone else think about this? Mungo Kitsch (talk) 05:34, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

@Mungo Kitsch: I do agree that it is definitely problematic in the way it's listed and to be fair, this is a new concept that we haven't really had to deal with on Wikipedia. I see there's a note about "CGI Casting" in the box, but i'd almost rather break the table apart into a separate table but that could be problematic in itself since it's just the one entry at this point. Even though he didn't directly work on it, I feel like it should be listed in the filmography section (but like I said above, perhaps another table?), but somehow differentiated from the first three films. -- Dane ^talk 05:41, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

I've removed the spurious listing. As I said in my edit summary, the film hasn't even been released, features a CGI James Dean, and even if ever released for distribution, it obviously has no place in James Dean the actual person's filmography. Carlstak (talk) 15:37, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Sexuality

I think the Sexuality section should be removed. I mean, although some people who know him say James Dean was gay or bisexual, James Dean himself never disclose his sexuality. 172.250.44.165 (talk) 22:04, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with you about that the "sexuality" section should be removed but I think the content must be mixed with the "personal life" and the "the Legacy and iconic status". In my opinion the stretch: "Today, Dean is often considered an icon because of his perceived experimental take on life, which included his ambivalent sexuality.[137] The Gay Times Readers' Awards cited him as the greatest male gay icon of all time.[137]" should be keeped in "the Legacy and iconic status". About the other info which include claims of his relationships with females and males, I don't understand why marginalize the homosexual claims that came from his friends and include only heterosexual relationships in the personal life. Everything is based in claims anyway.--88marcus (talk) 23:16, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

The reason the "Sexuality" section exists is to introduce information concerning the claims that James Dean was either homosexual or bisexual, which were all made sotto voce when he was alive, or in memoires or biographies published years after his death.

The only information about his sexuality published while he was still alive concerns his heterosexual affairs with Hollywood starlets, whether they were genuine or carried on to please the public and embellished by studio publicists. He supposedly replied to a reporter, "I'm not going through life with one hand tied behind my back" when asked about his sexuality, but we don't have verification of this quote from a contemporaneous reliable source, such as the actual interview in a newspaper. Carlstak (talk) 00:13, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Comment: We've been over this times before, including recently: Talk:James Dean/Archive 4#Sexuality → Personal life. I think it's time we make a FAQ on this and place it at the top of the talk page. The "Sexuality" section is WP:Due. Some people don't like its inclusion because it talks about James being gay or bisexual. But Wikipedia is not about the personal feelings of Wikipedia editors when it comes to the content we cover; it's about our policies and guidelines such as WP:Due. Beliefs/speculation about Dean being gay are tied to his legacy, as is clear by the Gay Times Readers' Awards labeling him the greatest male gay icon of all time. But the beliefs/speculation material is not best suited for the Personal life section, as though it was actually his personal life. At the David Bowie article, we do have material about Bowie's sexuality in the Personal life section, but that's different because most of the material is reporting on what Bowie stated. It wouldn't be a good idea to move the on-topic speculation material that is in that section to a different part of the article. That would be unnecessarily disjointing material. How Bowie presented his sexuality and challenged notions of gender is a part of his legacy, but what is in that section seems to fit best in the Personal life section than in the Legacy and influence section. Well, the following would also fit well in the Legacy and influence section: "The BBC's Mark Easton wrote in 2016 that Britain was 'far more tolerant of difference' and that gay rights, such as same-sex marriage, and gender equality would not have 'enjoyed the broad support they do today without Bowie's androgynous challenge all those years ago'." But since the "Sexuality" section exists, it's best placed there than in the Legacy and influence section. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 06:56, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I understand now. I'd prefer the way that I said previously, because in fact he's a gay icon, that is part of his legacy, but when sites like Gay Times claim that doesn't mean that he is a gay icon because he's gay. Madonna, Cher and Judy Garland are also gay icons but they're not lesbians. But anyway, the way the article is right now is better than erase all info about his sexuality like the anonymous user said.--88marcus (talk) 21:25, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, the Gay Times Readers' Awards labeling him the greatest male gay icon of all time doesn't mean they are saying he was gay. I kind of misspoke on that, which is odd since I already knew how the term gay icon is used. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 07:23, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

A "biographical film" to add? Almost Salinas (The Ghost of James Dean)

I think this film should be added -- but is it "biographical"? (or where would it go?) It's about the place where James Dean died, and how he died, and others who were affected. In the movie, a movie is being shot -- a biographical film -- which has followed his life, and is now filming his final day and car crash. There are lots of interactions between the film crew and people who live in the area and were affected by the crash, including (of course an actor playing) the person who was driving the car that Dean's car hit. I saw the movie in Sweden where it's titled The Ghost of James Dean. But the original -- since he was headed for Salinas -- is called Almost Salinas. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0252225/ Rick.Wicks (talk) 16:22, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

The movie's not biographical of James Dean—it's not about him, it's about a character portrayed by John Mahoney (the father from "Frasier"). He plays Max Harris, the "proprietor of a diner in a sparsely populated backwater" (Cholame). According to Roger Ebert, "...[t]he arrival of the film crew, with its own model of the same car, introduces a series of parallels between past and present". Ebert's lead paragraph says, "maybe the only way to save it would have been to leave out everything involving James Dean."

Ebert concludes his review with these words: "As the movie's great revelations started to slide into view, I slipped down in my seat, fearful that the simple and engaging story of these nice people would be upstaged by the grinding mechanics of plot contrivance. My fears were well-grounded. "Almost Salinas" generates enormous goodwill and then loses it by betraying its characters to the needs of a plot that wants to inspire pathos and sympathy, but inspires instead, alas, groans and the rolling of eyes."

I can't see that this movie has a place in this article. Besides, WP already has an article about this critically panned comedy/drama. Why not expand that article, without a reference to IMDb, which is not a reliable source, since it is user-generated? Carlstak (talk) 01:48, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 March 2021

James Deans occupations was not only an actor. He was a car racer to. 73.170.67.148 (talk) 06:47, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. Not a significant aspect to characterize him by in the first sentence. We have a section on this already. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 12:01, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Low rent film criticism and a false take

In response to the new press notice at top of this page, Caspar Salmon writing in Mubi either didn't bother to read the entire article, or he is deliberately misrepresenting what it actually says when he falsely claims "I had thought that the culture had moved on to a public understanding that James Dean was, at the very least, sexually ambiguous, but Wikipedia contents itself with listing his girlfriends and mentioning that he was presented by studios as an "eligible bachelor" along with stars like Rock Hudson and Tab Hunter...".

In reality, the very first sentence of the "Sexuality" section, which Salmon apparently didn't read, says, "Dean is often considered an icon because of his perceived experimental take on life, which included his ambivalent sexuality." Kind of hard to miss that, but even more egregiously, he calls the article "dissembling". The section literally says that John Gilmore claimed he and Dean "experimented" with gay sex on multiple occasions in New York, and described their sexual encounters as "Bad boys playing bad boys while opening up the bisexual sides of ourselves." Salmon is full of shit. Carlstak (talk) 00:56, 24 April 2021 (UTC)