Talk:Julia (women of the Julii Caesares)

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Untitled[edit]

When died Augustus' daughter Julia Caesaris?

She died some time after Augustus' death in AD 14, but before AD 15 - Clearly stated in Tacitus, Annales 1.53 ("That same year Julia ended her days..."); cf. Ann.1.55, which commences the narration of events of AD 15.

Hello. Julia Caesaris' (Julia the Elder) death is unknown for sure. We know that she died merely a few months after Augustus' death, who died in August. (If you're going to die, do it in your own month, eh?) Julia probably died in November. Anyway, no one knows for sure why Julia died. It may have been that the malnutrition was the result of Tiberius wanted to kill her off so he starved her to death. However, it is equally possible that she committed suicide when she heard her last surviving son was dead.--Sophie-Lou 12:21, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Some think only a few weeks after Augustus. The most amount of people know very little about her death, apart from that she probably died of starvation. A wide number of people think she may have been semi-executed/semi-murdered on Tiberius' order. Still, some historians think she killed herself. I think she may well have committed sucide in the end, though it depends on how you look at it. --Camblunt100 11:21, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Her real name?[edit]

In Latin, Romans called her Iulia Caesaris, not Julia Caesaris.

Julia is an English type name, not Roman.

At the time the Julia women were alive, the letter "J" hadn't been created yet, and it was represented by an "I" hence the Julia girls, for example, Augustus' daughter really spelt her name IVLIA CAESARIS. It's the female version of the name Julius and we all know how that was said.--Sophie-Lou 12:21, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Romans did not know the modern English "J". Her name would have been pronounced "Yulia", as in Yuletide.

81.190.70.164. 10.04.2006.

wiki links[edit]

Julia Caesaris links elsewhere need piping into specific subhead for specific figure. I have done on What links here page as far as Tiberius. Some useful bits of text to copy for doing so -

Neddyseagoon 03:13, 5 March 2006 (UTC)neddyseagoon → updated --Francis Schonken 10:33, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I sorted out the interwiki-links for this artcle and Julia the Elder (apart from Japanese: no idea whether that's about all of them or only about the Elder: so I made an interwiki-link on both pages in English wikipedia) --Francis Schonken 08:27, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What is going on? It looks to me like User talk:Anriz is trying to restore content that has been moved to daughter articles Julia the Elder and Vipsania Julia. Anriz has blanked Julia the Elder. User:Francis Schonken seems to favor the daughter articles and has reverted Anriz. User:Lightdarkness andUser:JFG have reverted Anriz, as well. Anriz, I wonder if you would be kind enough to give us the benefit of your thoughts on this matter? Best wishes, Walter Siegmund (talk) 03:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Better to make this page a short list or disambiguation page, and give each figure a separate page, even if that means some Ancient-Rome-bio-stub stubs? Simpler/more specific for linking, and ok for figures who get too long for here, like Julia the Elder Neddyseagoon 12:35, 6 March 2006 (UTC)neddyseagoon[reply]

This article is a WP:DAB#Summary_or_multi-stub_pages, I think. It seems to satisfy the guideline the way it is written, although stubbing every individual is OK too. Wikipedia:Summary style sugggests writing short summaries for the two daughter articles, Julia the Elder and Vipsania Julia.
I object to the way Anriz has been treated here. What happened to WP:BITE and WP:AGF? Shouldn't editors discuss their reverts of other editors and cite policies and guidelines in support of them? Walter Siegmund (talk) 17:50, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"This article is a WP:DAB#Summary_or_multi-stub_pages" — I didn't think it was: I'd rather say: this page is a wikipedia:summary style article;
See also wikipedia:naming conventions (people)#Articles treating several persons with the same name on the same page (advising split for the Julia Caesaris article). Note that until today it cost me an out of proportion lot of trouble to prevent interwiki-link-bots to mess up the links with the 5 or so other language wikipedias that have a Julia Caesaris DAB page and/or overview page and/or individual articles on some of these women. The general conclusion: everyone *expects* that a page named after a person is either a DAB page ("summary style" at most), either a page on a single person (author duos with a single pen name being the only exception afaik).
Further, I never started the Vipsania Julia article: that article simply *existed* since November 2004!, for some reason or another she was however not mentioned in the Julia Caesaris article, although one of the possibilities of naming that person is Julia Caesaris (minor).
If I was rude to Anriz (which I maybe inadvertently was), I'd like to make amends, and invite this editor to take part in this discussion. --Francis Schonken 09:22, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
With the incessant background of vandalism, it is hard sometimes to distinguish them from the well-intentioned trial and error edits of new editors. I've looked at some of Anriz' edits, [1] and I think that he is in the latter category. Thank you for your gracious and informative comments. I'm grateful for your work doing dealing with the interwiki-link-bots of which I wasn't aware. Best wishes, Walter Siegmund (talk) 19:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
With all respect to everyone, I've now stubbed all the figures, sorted all the links to go to the specific figures and turned here into a Disambiguation page. Hope that makes more sense. Neddyseagoon 20:16, 7 March 2006 (UTC)neddyseagoon[reply]

I know understand why Vipsania Julia had been added to the category. Vipsania's birth name is Vipsania Julia Agrippina not Julia Caesaris. Although she is known as Julia the Younger and Julia Caesaris the Younger her name is not Julia Caesaris. The only women of that name to be added are the sisters of Julius Caesar, mother of Antony, Marius' wife, daughter of Julius Caesar and Augustus' daughter. Augustus' daughter was the last woman to have the name Julia Caesaris. Augustus' granddaughters have the name Julia, however their names are not Julia Caesaris. I am refering to Vipsania Julia Agrippina and Julia Vipsania Agrippina (or known as Agrippina Major).

I tried to restore the content on several occasions to keep within the theme and originality of the article. Anriz 8 March 2006

I just expanded the Vipsania Julia article somewhat (including starting to give references); I couldn't actually find a place where she is litterally called "Julia Caesaris minor/the Younger" (except for what was in that article already for a long time), so Anriz may be right, but needs further research IMHO. --Francis Schonken 08:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you read Suetonius and Tacitus she is known as Julia the Younger, however modern Historians call her Julia Caesaris the Younger. Information on Vipsania Julia, has been taken from mainly Suetonius, Tacitus and other historical sources. All the articles that I have made contributions to or have I research and typed for Wikipedia, the information is from ancient or modern sources. Anriz 9 March 2006

Fine! All we still need now is that these references show up in the respective articles. For instance, in the Vipsania Julia article there is now:
Julia later remarried[citation needed].
I couldn't find the indication that Vipsania Julia would have remarried during her exile in Tacitus. Don't know whether I overlooked. Maybe it is in Suetonius (didn't check yet). Or only a modern historian deducing it from other data, or whatever. Now: whatever the source of this piece of information, the wikipedia article should mention that source (or the most important of these sources, if there are several).
Descriptions of techniques for how to put such source reference(s) in a wikipedia article can be found at: wikipedia:citing sources, wikipedia:harvard referencing, wikipedia:footnotes, etc. (choose whatever suits best...) --Francis Schonken 10:33, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Julia Caesaris" - a crass misnomer?[edit]

„Julia Caesaris (IVLIA•CAESARIS) is the name of all women in the Julii Caesares patrician family (a subdivision of the Julii family), since feminine names were their father's gens and cognomen declined in the female form.”

Does the ‘Caesaris’ represent the female form of a third declension (like the adjective celer / celeris / celere), or is it merely the genitive case of the noun Caesar (i.e. ‘Caesar’s’, ‘of Caesar’)? Is there so much as a single piece of evidence that ‘Caesaris’ existed as a feminine counterpart to ‘Caesar’? Surely Caesaris is merely the genitive of a noun: i.e. ‘Iulia [daughter etc.] of Caesar’. I don’t believe that just as there is a ‘Iulius Caesar’, so there has to be a ‘Iulia Caesaris’ – it ignores the subordinate status of women in Ancient Rome.

Take the name Caecilius Metellus, and the female counterpart Caecilia Metella: these are words of the first and second declension. Why should ‘Caesar’ (third declension) have a feminine form – it violates Latin idiom. Is there even one single case in ancient sources of the phrase 'Iulia Caesaris' (without the 'filia')? (Could the reference be provided?) 81.190.70.164

Biography?[edit]

Have any scholarly biographies been written about Julia the Elder (the daughter of Augustus) aside from the yet to be released "Julia Augusti?" So far, I have not been able to locate a single one. --Jello 06:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jello, there has been no other biography other then the long awaited Julia Augusti, but there has been a novel made about her called "Caesar's Daughter" by Edward Burton, which is basically about Augustus and Julia having influence over each other's lives. She's the terribly faulted yet wonderfully good-hearted daughter of Augustus and it's well worth a read if you're into Julia and Augustus. It's not in print right now, but odd book stores do have it and some people sell used copies for not a lot of money.--80.193.19.191 19:17, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't think there were any others--but I eagerly look forward to that one. As for your suggestion, yes, I'll most definately check it out. The only problem is finding it: I've scoured online sources, and can't find a single used copy anywhere. I might have to check out local used book stores to have any chance of finding it, it seems. --Jello 07:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's a shame isn't that no one has done more on her, she's so interesting and different from everyone back then. I'm eargly awaiting Julia Augusti for when it comes out. It claims to be VERY detailed... About time!--80.193.19.191 15:11, 28 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Very detailed, eh? Lovely! I've been trying my hands at a work of fiction that I intend to shape and mold over the next few years, but there are so little sources on Julia's characteristics that all I have to rely on comes from scuttlebutt or that bit on 'Julia's wit'. If Julia Augusti is very detailed, I'd be absolutely thrilled to have that information to augment my portrayal of her, which I hope will be very compelling. It's disappointing, though, that's it's taken two thousand years for someone to get down to writing her biography! --Jello 00:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've heard that it was detailed too. I've been writing a fictional story about Julia starting from her childhood and ending with Tiberius coming into power (basically just before her death.) I'm hoping that this new biography will also give me a better idea of what Julia did and what went on with her. I'm trying to get a proper idea of what she was like and her history to try and help with the "plot". --Sophie-Lou 16:25, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Augustus by John Edward Williams, though it is called Augustus, the star of the book is really Julia. It begins with Octavian, (It's in three parts) but part II is all about Julia, she steals the show. In the final part which is barely any more then a chapter, Augustus thinks about everything and once again mentions Julia over and over and over again. The book should have really been called Augustus and Julia, eh? --Camblunt100 16:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent, it appears that my school library has this book! I shall check it out tomorrow, then. It should be a fascinating read. Thank you very much, especially for sending a message my way to apprise me of it. --Jello 07:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If it's Julia fiction you want, I've got a good one here: there is the book that my bought years ago which isn't completely historically accurate but it's another story from the point of view of Julia.
"Jeg elsket Tiberius" is English it's called "I loved Tiberius" and as you have guessed, it's a book that peddles the theory that Julia actually loved Tiberius, and he loved her more then he realises. The story is mainly historical romance, but it's very well written and provides all the sources to back-up some of the theories. Julia's exile is also based on a misunderstanding, she's very friendly with men so people assume she's doing them to. It's a very sad ending. --Camblunt100 08:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Julia Augusti[edit]

I'm also happy that someone has finally sat down a written a story about her history. The blurb on Amazon.co.uk says the following:

This scholarly biography details the life of an extraordinary woman in an extraordinary society. "Julia Augusti" studies the life of the only daughter of Augustus, the first Roman emperor, and the father who sacrificed his daughter and her children in order to establish a dynasty. Studying the abundant historical evidence available, this biography studies each stage of Julia's life in remarkable detail: her childhood - taken from her divorced mother to become part of a complex and unstable family structure; her youth - set against the brilliant social and cultural life of the new Augustan Rome; her marriages - as tools for Augustus' plans for succession; and Julia's violation of her father's moral regime, and the betrayal of her absent husband. Reflecting new attitudes, and casting fresh light on their social reality, this outstanding biography will delight, entertain and inform anyone interested in this engaging Classical figure. (Taken from Amazon.co.uk)

I have a list of the parts there are in the book here (Taken from Routledge):

  • Introduction
  • Julia's Birth and Family
  • Julia's Girlhood
  • Marriage to Agrippa
  • Julia's Boys
  • The Grass Widow and her Humiliation
  • Julia's Daughters
  • The Death of Augustus
  • Ruin of the Julian Branch

I'm seriously looking forward to getting this book. I asked for it for my birthday and my mother was more then happy to get it for me. She says that she wouldn't mind reading it either. --Sophie-Lou 16:25, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This book is one of the reasons why I enjoy having a nice income. It's not going to be cheap, apparently. I'll be fascinated to see all this material though, since the chapter headings astound me. It might read a little like a tragedy, since that's what her story was. It's not only a personal tragedy, but that of the Julian house, which this book will apparently delve into. Good stuff. --Jello 08:28, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's sad to think that as a result of all of this, it was one of the things that lead to the Julian house's downfall. I am really looking forwards to this book. It is high priced, I'm getting it in paper back because the proper bounded and cloth version costs £60.00! Thankfully the normal paper back is only £18.99. --Camblunt100 10:14, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How to pronounce Caesaris[edit]

Since you pronounce Caesar as kai-sahr. Would you pronounce Caesaris like the German title, Kaiserin or Kai-shr-eese? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.24.82.157 (talk) 01:57, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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