Talk:List of Naruto antagonists/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Naming

Wouldn't a better name for this page be "Minor (or Lesser) enemies in Naruto"? --Pentasyllabic 22:35, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Even better would be List of minor enemies in Naruto. --maru (talk) contribs 15:44, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Oboro, Mubi, and Kagari

Are these villians really "minor"? I mean these three were important in the Chuunin Exam as the carriers of the scroll that Team 7 absolutely needed to pass the second exam.

The Wretched

Even though these three are important to Team 7's passage through the Forest of Death, they are not at the level of Orochimaru and other major villains. Blademaster313 23:08, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

well yeah but if you look at it,most of these minor villians don't make a reapperence,however these three reapper in the Land Of Tea anime filler arc,so that means they have alittle more importence then most of these villians. also ,with that filler they have had a bit more importence then zabuza,because they have been impotent in two arcs,zabuza was only importent in one

btw:i'm wondering what happened to these three's info, one day they had like the age and rank and stuff then the next day it didn't even have pic of their battle outfits. Allen Walker 11:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Zabuza had a profound influence on several major characters. He's one of the most significant villians in the entire series. Oboro, Mubi, and Kagari are entirely minor. The fact that they appear for a pair of arcs is entirely irrelevant - they do not contribute anything highly important to the plot. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 16:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

yeah i guess your right.......athough i wish they were major characters,Oboro is one of my fav characters for the whole seris,but i digress. anyway,i guess your right so i'll just drop it.Allen Walker 11:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Um they make at least 2 appearences as well as appear in one of the video games! (clash of ninja 2) Aburame66745 02:27, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Gato...h whatever

it says he looks like Fred Tatasciore, his voice actor. I can't find a picture of Fred Tatasciore to save my life right now, can anyone verify this claim?

I can. Just Yahoo image search "Fred Tatasciore" (keep the quotes). Yahoo was the only place I could find an image, and, yes, they look very much alike. Dagron12345 22:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

First Rain Genin team

Do these guys really count as enemies? They just happened to be examines in the Chunin Exam that were in the wrong place at the wrong time. If you think about it, their opponent, Gaara, was the more villanous at the time. In theory, these would be good guys. Well, more like neutral, but still not villains. We could just slip these three onto the Unsorted Characters section of the Characters page. You Can't See Me! 04:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

That section is a necessaey evil and nothing more. We don't need to be expanding it. Those Genin were allied against a main character, so they become villians. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 06:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Midare, it seems loosely possible his name is taken from samidare (五月雨), which means "early summer rain". It would fit within the theme of his teammates' names, but of course it's purely conjecture, thus my bringing it up here. Anyone else have thoughts on this? SlackerEmeritus 11:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Not villains, but antagonists.

Naruto movie 3

Can someone find pictures of Ishidate, Kongou and Karenbana? My screenshot program wont work for the life of me. EDIT: Thanks very much. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Irothtin (talk • contribs) 22:28, 1 May 2007 (UTC).

And the moya Brothers?

The Moya Brothers! the ninjas of La Aldea Oculta Del Humo

Uh... one, speak English. Two, what's your point? // DecaimientoPoético 02:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

BabelFish tells me he's asking where the ninja from the Village Hidden in the Smoke are. ~SnapperTo 02:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Transfer Haku and Zabuza

Could we please transfer Haku and Zabuza to a different article? As far as I see, these two are NOT minor characters. I was actually quite surprised to see them on this page. These two characters did a lot at the start of the story, and have put a major impact in the plot. Their appearances in the series are still affecting the entire series even after their deaths. Haku even showed Naruto what it truly means to be a ninja. Naruto will never forget that. These two are definately way more important than all these other villains who only appeared in fillers. What do you guys think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.181.58.44 (talk) 02:49, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

Which is why "minor" is no longer part of this article's name. ~SnapperTo 02:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Shouldnt the water dragon technique go to the water techniques in recurring jutsu, because kakashi and 2nd hokage also use this(while kakashi uses it many times in the movie).

~Tintor2 14:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome to move it there. My knowledge of anime-only uses is limited, so I moved jutsu to whatever manga character used them. ~SnapperTo 21:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use image removal

Fair use images have repeatedly been removed from this article for violating our policies on the use of fair use images found at Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria #3(a) and #8, and Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy. Removals of this type have been occurring all across the project. A sample of such efforts may be found at User:Durin/Fair_Use_Overuse#Complete. This type of removal has been debated many times in the past, with the result that the images have been removed and ultimately remained removed. Please see User:Durin/Fair_use_overuse_explanation#Prior_debates for some example debates.

If you still feel motivated to dispute our policy and wish to engage in discussion with specific regards to the use of such images on this and closely related articles, please centralize discussion at Talk:List of Akatsuki members. --Durin 12:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Demon Brothers technique

I thought that the chain technique they used was called "Shared Instinct Assassination Jutsu" I saw it somewhere in one of my books about Naruto- Kakashi The Mirror Ninja 02:23, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Haku

It's off wiki, but I have a little request. Does anyone from Wikipedia have any good citations on Haku's gender? There are people who consider Haku male, and others who consider Haku female. The topic turned into a heated debate on the Narutopedia because people were throwing around speculation saying it was fact, and not focusing on the issue. If anyone here has some good references, it would be helpful. ^_^ It could also help for citing the Wikipedia article and avoid harsh debates like the one we have from happening here to. Dantman (talk) 03:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, scratch my comment. I finally found Talk:Haku (Naruto), talkpages are hard to find when they're part of redirects. All the merging made it hard to track down. Dantman (talk) 11:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

And they refer to Haku as a "he", and Haku even says he's a guy. Jazz Band Member (talk) 13:11, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Haku is a guy. Case closed.

Zaku

During his flashback when he faught Shino, after he met Orochimaru Zaku getts attacked by a bunch of Waterfall ninja, so could he be from the waterfall village? Scorpio777 (talk) 05:00, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Scorpio666

Not very plausible. 217.208.24.113 (talk) 14:38, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Databook footnotes

The databook footnotes are broken, attempting to link to #Sources. –Gunslinger47 03:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Name of Kimimaro

Kimimaro is from the Kaguya clan, but he is never called kimimaro kaguya, while the 2nd databook simply calls him Kimimaro. Tintor2 11:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It's obvious to me that there is a reason why Kimimaro isn't called Kimimaro Kaguya. Either Kaguya never was his surname, or he discarded it for some reason. No matter what, using Kaguya as his surname would be original research. JadziaLover (talk) 14:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Another proof why we cant use it is the poll from chapter 245; while all characters have their surnames, Kimimaro doesnt have a surname(he ranked 18).Tintor2 14:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

major and minor villians

this is just a suggestion, so please don't bomb me with wiki rules, but do you guys think it's possible to split this article into major and minor villians like the major and minor characters list?--Sanji_1990 (talk) 17:56, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Who would be a minor villain? ~SnapperTo 19:30, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

People from the naruto movies, filler arcs, some ovas, maybe gato or something. Like I siad, it's a suggestion, so i haven't really thought it out.--Sanji_1990 (talk) 20:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

All of the "minor characters" have some impact on the plot (some far more than others), which is that basic cut off point for whether or not someone is listed. Filler characters generally do not meet this goal, and movies are a separate continuity. Movie characters can be covered in the respective movie article, as tends to be the norm. If you feel there is a villain who greatly adds to the story that is not listed, just add them to this article. ~SnapperTo 20:45, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

all right--Sanji_1990 (talk) 01:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

What about Yoroi Akadou?

Why can't Yoroi or even Misumi be put on Wikipedia? Give me some feedback. —Preceding unsigned comment added by K1o1g12 (talk • contribs) 00:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Madara again, again

The article also says that Madara created Akatsuki, assumed the alias of Tobi and then attacked Konoha with the demon fox. It was never said that he assumed the alias of Tobi after he created Akatsuki, only that he "hid in its shadows". Without a legitimate source i dont think this point is valid at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.221.217.4 (talk) 09:37, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

He calls himself Tobi, therefore alias. The others know his as Tobi, therefore alias. Simple. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 09:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

The heck is this!?

Seriously, what the heck happened??? Didn't Akatsuki have it's own page before? Why the HELL was it moved to this? Isn't Akatsuki important enough to keep it's own page? Seriously, what's wrong with you people? I have the same issue with the Jutsu page; why lessen the content to just a few jutsu, instead of doing what you had going on before? I gotta say, the editors here on Wikipedia have no brains. This is supposed to be an ENCYCLOPEDIA. You should be TRYING to show information instead of making all of your pages look like kindergarden homework! Kaseidg (talk) 12:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

That's one talented kindergartener. Seriously, most kindergarten homework is borderline illegible. They should be in The Guinness Book of World Records. ~SnapperTo 19:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

To answer Kaseidg's comment, there was an in universe tag on the old Akatsuki page and we just kind of sat on our hands. The wardrobe section was overly detailed, the info was mostly cruft, and we had two - TWO - entries on Madara Uchiha, one uhere and one there. The way I saw it was there was really no other option. Though I hated to see this info go almost as much as I hated seeing the original Itachi article go, it had to be done. As soon as I am through with my current episode of Wiki-bonk-itis, I will work on getting the original Akatsuki article back up to snuff in my userspace, and then present it to Seph, who can either decide to accept or reject it. Hope that answers your questions. Sasuke9031 (talk) 22:20, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Zabuza is the first antagonist introduced?

Last time I checked it was Mizuki, as he was the antagonist of the first chapter. Zabuza was the first major antagonist to be in more than one chapter, but overall, that statement in incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.242.232 (talk) 16:53, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

yes it was MIZUKI.Grimmjow E6 (talk) 00:28, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Zabuza Momochi Alive?

Under the References and the box with the choices like Sasuke, Naruto and Akatsuki it says: But is found alive in later manga

Im assuming it means Zabuza but its known that hes dead so who is alive thats thought to be dead? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.46.140.237 (talk) 18:40, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Zabuza was still in the ground when Suigetsu went to retrieve his sword from the on top of his grave. --Pottski (talk) 23:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Zabuza and Haku have been seen alive in a recent episode from the year of 2008. It was a short clip, probably five to ten seconds long... Animine (talk) 22:09, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Zabuza is dead. He is found alive in later manga, and dies after Haku does, of numerous blades in the back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.43.190 (talk) 23:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

In the Konoha Sports Events, Zabuza and Haku did appear, but Zabuza and Haku's appearance was a joke during that clip. If you notice, there were several other people in that line that you wouldn't expect to be there: Itachi, Kisame, Gaara, etc, etc. Noodle2D23 (talk) 18:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I notice that too. Espeically Naruto's father and Konamaru's grandfather are in it and they are dead too. The joke is that Naruto is trying to get to the restroom, because he had something bad that make his stomach hurt and there is a long line for the mens restroom.Miss Lindsie aka LindsieandLance 08:07, 14 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by LindsieandLance (talk • contribs)

Haku & Zabuza

Didn't Haku and zabuza both have their own pages before? Maybe it's a good idea to put them on this page, but i'm just trying to make sure i haven't entirely lost my mind. Ichliebezuko (talk) 14:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I think you're right. I'm almost positive they both had thier own page. Why did they get moved here? Plus, what happened to the pictures of them? A pyrate's life for me... (talk) 17:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

If I am not very much misteken they were merged because they did not meet WP:FICT guidlines. --67.68.154.54 (talk) 05:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia may not have rights to thier pictures. Animine (talk) 22:09, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Orochimaru in Akatsuki

I moved Orochimaru's entry from Other to Akatsuki, seeing that the rest of the former Akatsuki members are there. focoma (talk) 06:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Orochimaru is a former member of Akatsuki in the whole series, in the normal series timeline he is sound ninja so I decided to revert it. Mentioning he was part of Akatsuki is enough.--Tintor2 (talk) 19:14, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Put him in both. StardustDragon 18:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Itachi Main article

I believe there was a main article for Itachi. I wonder why it was removed. He is one of the main characters, not just a villain. As of latest chapters, It's been confirmed. He should have a main article. --Fotte (talk) 07:13, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

We've been over this I don't know how many times. Itachi was merged because he failed WP:FICT. If you can find a way to refute all the previous arguments and satisfy WP:FICT, then by all means. Not very likely, but you never know. Sasuke9031 (talk) 07:27, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Here is my draft of reception if you would like to help. User talk:Tintor2/ draft# Reception.--Tintor2 (talk) 16:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I guess that Itachi may get his article since in that draft I could get more things of reception. However, it needs conception information, just see a GA article Aang that has more or less the same reception as Itachi but it has more conception.--Tintor2 (talk) 16:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, yeah, if we get that conception info, then yeah, he'll definitely get it back, looking at Aang's. I'll get started looking as soon as I stop feeling as emo as I am right now. Sasuke9031 (talk) 03:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks and lol.--Tintor2 (talk) 15:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I will also look to increase the reception.Tintor2 (talk) 15:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks folks, i will try to help also. --Fotte (talk) 08:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

He's not even a villain!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkmage Rector (talk • contribs) 05:03, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

WE dont know that yet mandara is filling sauske minds with lies this can be confiremed when tobi mas talking to Kisame as mandara a second time in naruto manga 304.Grimmjow E6 (talk) 02:35, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Minor Error in Zetsu

"The black half speaks in Katakana in the Japanese manga and is voiced by Michael Sorich in the English anime, while the white speaks Kanji and Kana and is voiced by Brian Beacock. Both sides are voiced by Nobuo Tobita in the Japanese anime, with the black half being given a much deeper voice than the white."

should be revised to ..

"In the Japanese manga the black sides speaks Katakana ,while the white speaks Kanji and Kana, In the English Anime the black half is voiced by Michael Sorich in the English anime, while the white is voiced by Brian Beacock. Both sides are voiced by Nobuo Tobita in the Japanese anime, with the black half being given a much deeper voice than the white.--"76.104.223.234 (talk) 23:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that something is incorrect, or that it should just be reworded? Because I'm not seeing much of a difference in your excerpts. ~SnapperTo 18:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Why would we change a perfectly grammatical excerpt to your horribly-punctuated and crappily-capitalized version? StardustDragon 18:17, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Co...Co...Re-TAR-Doh.

Why the haaaaalle deed the Akotski page get merrrHERRRged with the vilLAMES page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.140.51.87 (talk) 23:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

No clue. I guess they felt that it didn't deserve it's own page, even though it did. Jazz Band Member (talk) 20:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Because it didn't have nearly any references or assertions of notability, and without the merge the info would be deleted altogether? The info's still here, what are you whining about?Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 21:09, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

See responses above. Additionally, consult a dictionary to make your quivels somewhat respectable. StardustDragon 02:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Look I say the people of Wikipedia should have free reign on the Akatsuki page. Let the people edit! Wiz_Baconerrd

It was protected BECAUSE they had free reign. Jazz Band Member (talk) 10:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Haku = Shiro?

Was Haku really called Shiro in the Malaysian dub? I can't find a reliable source confirming this bit. Reason why I'm asking is because the character is listed on Shiro with this uncited claim. Thoughts? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 18:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, I suppose that it might make sense, since the kanji for "Haku" can also be read as "Shiro" or "Shiroi", but I wouldn't know. 71.205.161.92 (talk) 00:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I thought his family name was identified as Shiro in the Malaysian dub, sort of like that Brazilian incident where people thought Tenten's family name was Ama.StardustDragon 15:42, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

It's possible that this mistake was perpetuated to have consistency with the Malaysian manga, where a Haku/Shiro mistake would actually make sense.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 16:16, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Madara's story

The page seems to accept Madara's story that he is telling Itachi as truth. He might be lying. Shouldn't most of the stuff be worded to make it clear that this is all just speculation? Voretus (talk) 00:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not speculation, it's a plot dump. If he's revealed to be lying later, we correct it, but it's not speculation to add his version of the story. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 00:35, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

It would actualy be specualtion to state that he may be lying since there is currently no evidence that he was not telling the truth. Without evidence anyting added would be based on personal analysis on the character which is clearly speculative and a violation of WP:V. --76.66.191.213 (talk) 22:55, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I trust Trust not the Penguin. It is a plot dump. In written fiction, the term is additionally used to indicate giving information by exposition rather than revelation through action and dialogue. However, a plot dump expressed by characters in dialogue during the course of the movie is often taken to be indicative of an inferior narrative. Examples of the latter sense often take the form of one character explaining elaborate details regarding another character that would seem exaggerated and out-of-place in real-life conversation. That is a plot dump, deal with it. If at any cost, Madara is found to be lying, it will be corrected. About verifiability, reliable, published source using an inline citation will denounce, or rather, nullify it. -Axxand 12:52, 27 May 2008 (Phils) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Axxand (talk • contribs)

Are some translations correct?

Madara said "If I hadn't kept some secret even from him I might be dead by now" Is this the correct translation? Its really unusual for Madara to admit that if he and Itachi had equal knowledge regarding the sharingan, his student can surpass his power, logically speaking that is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.177.201.70 (talk) 15:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Remember, Itachi is the prodigy of prodigies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkmage Rector (talk • contribs) 05:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Hawk Shouldent the snake articles be changed to Hawk becuse Sasuke changed the name in the newest chapter

75.128.10.23 (talk) 22:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

No, because the chapter didn't come out yet. It is merely a spoiler. We don't put spoilers on because they cannot be confirmed until the chapter is officially released. Jazz Band Member (talk) 00:00, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Chapter's out now. Snake has been officially renamed Hawk (Eagle in some translations). 75.157.88.1 (talk) 17:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Itachi

Since he is no longer, or has never been rather, a villain, shouldn't he be removed from this article?Louis (talk) 04:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

No. If anything, this article should be moved to List of Naruto antagonists since that's what he is for 390 chapters of the series. ~SnapperTo 04:34, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Although Itachi died on a romantic-thrilling death, and somewhat a dramatic one --and though other characters are speaking of good deeds about Itachi-- we cannot just put aside his attempt to kidnap Naruto (the protagonist), the murder of his clan, being an Akatsuki (group of criminal) and so forth. I agree with Snapper as the word villain be changed to antagonists for such purposes. ~Axxand (talk • contribs) —Preceding comment was added at 05:24, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Itachi DIDN'T attempt to kidnap Naruto. It was just a cover to remind Danzo that Itachi is still around so Danzo can't kill Sasuke! The murder of his clan was an order that he sensibly chose to follow! The lesser of two evils. He's in Akatsuki as a COVER-UP for the decision to kill the Uchiha. You really didn't get this from reading it?

Did i mentioned Danzo in the above-statement.. So you did not FORESEE the kidnapping i am talking about. Itachi is the member of Akatsuki to later get Naruto for the nine-tailed demon fox.. And so what if the murder of his clan was a cover-up?.. the fact is that he murdered them. I think you are just another Itachi-fan not wanting him to be an antagonist. Well, just deal with it BECAUSE AS I SAID, ITACHI IS NOT A VILLAIN BUT AN ANTAGONIST. ~Axxand (talk • contribs) 03:41, 03 June 2008 (Phils)

Now... Itachi is difficult... Yeah, I think antagonist is probably the best way to sum this guy up. Hero... hell no. Villain... until recently, I'd have said yes. He's kind of a combination of anti-hero and anti-villain. Yeah... we all agree he's an antagonist, at least. Right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.43.190 (talk) 00:42, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I doubt there would be any opposition to that since he as part of the Akatsuki were clearly opposition for Naruto. I also agree that removal is not a good option since unless there is a plan to remove the entire Akatsuki section it would make no sense to have all the members listed except for Itachi. --76.71.213.173 (talk) 22:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Itachi is kind of anti-hero. But I agree with the title "antagonists". OK, so can somebody fix all the double redirects plz?

Even though he's not technically a villain, he's a member of Akatsuki, and one of the primary members story-wise, and belongs in the Akatsuki section. StardustDragon 16:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

It's a very tough call, it really depends honestly on ability to perceive, personally I was pretty sure Itachi wasn't a complete villain from the point where he didn't actually want to fight anyone in Konoha as Kisame and Itachi made their introduction. Later on, the actual linguistics of his speech can all be determined to be noble even without hind sight. He was a target of the protagonists, which made him an antagonist, I suppose. To me, it seems that he helped the protagonists more than he hurt them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.173.128.41 (talk) 06:24, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Tobi hasn't been proven to be Madara

Calling yourself by a name does not make you that person..... There's a heavy group of people against Tobi being Madara.... UNTIL IT IS PROVEN THE TWO SHOULD BE KEPT SEPERATE! For that matter the "Obito" theroy is MASSIVE! TONS of fans now believe Tobi is in fact Obito Uchiha. This deserves credit as well! Until Tobi's identity is proven (to the point we see his true face) he should just remain as Tobi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PrinceIvan (talk • contribs) 06:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Might I ask, where's the evidence that Tobi is Obito? As far as I can tell, there's no evidence that Tobi is Obito in the manga, so there is really no support to that theory. Maybe there will be a subplot involving Kakashi believing Tobi is Obito back from the dead (it would be funny, wouldn't it?), but as of yet there is no evidence in the manga to warrent that the Tobi = Obito theory deserves any credit at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.26.133.248 (talk) 15:47, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I know I shouldn't bite the newbies, but I'm tired of hearing it. Tobi is Madara. You were wrong about Obito. Quit bitching. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 06:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

In retrospect, the only fan theory that turned out being right was that the Fourth was Naruto's father, but that was so obvious you could have seen it a mile away. The Akatsuki leader = Fourth was proven wrong, the Obito = Tobi was proven wrong. The only other theory I can recall was that the third Mangekyo Sharingan technique was Susanoo, but then again, that was another obvious one. Oh well - WP:V and WP:NOR ensures we win every time :p Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 06:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Let's be honest the Madara=Obito is around that level of obviousness as well.70.138.167.143 (talk) 17:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Itachi said Madara wouldn't have a fear of going blind thanks the the Eternal Mangekyo. So why doesn't he use it? He has nothing to lost and everything to gain from never deactivating his mangekyo. And his eye? Why's it covered up? If Madara is the god the manga has built him up to be, why is he so limited hm? —Preceding unsigned comment added by PrinceIvan (talk • contribs) 06:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Talk pages of articles are not the best places for you to speculate on such material - see WP:TALK. In short, we have to follow our policies, specifically Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research, in regards to the reporting of material - we cannot place anything that is the product of original synthesis or cannot be attributed to a reliable source. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 06:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe because he doesn't want to be burning chakra at all hours. Quit grasping at straws to waste our time. Tobi is Madara. That's what he says, that's what Itachi says, that's what everyone says, and no amount of pitiful reasoning on your part is going to overturn the obvious. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 06:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

"Obvious" as in "Kishimoto, the man who's obsessed with plot twists, have all characters say that Tobi is Madara and choses never to reveal his face"? Ruling out you're stupid on obvious grounds, Penguin, you're either delusional, going by defunct logic or you're selectively deaf. 81.228.148.133 (talk) 13:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

You're suggesting Tobi is Obito, and Penguin is the delusional one? Wow. If and when Tobi is revealed to be Obito, the article will say as much. Until then, no amount of fan conjecture will change what the manga has repeatedly stated: that Tobi is Madara. Incidentally, why does Tobi = Madara have to be a lie if Tobi = Obito is to be true? Can't Tobi = Madara = Obito? ~SnapperTo 17:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

You want defunct logic, how about saying he must be Obito because he's never shown his face? Please, your insults are as meaningless as the Tobi = Obito argument itself. The weight of facts has snapped your pathetic theory like a twig and you just can't let the pieces go. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 20:01, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Kishimoto did reveal part of Tobi's face and guess what? The shape of Tobi's eye and the lines around it are an exact match for Madara's eyes, yet they don't resemble Obito's eyes at all. --JadziaLover (talk) 04:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe because he doesn't want to be burning chakra at all hours. Quit grasping at straws to waste our time. Tobi is Madara. That's what he says, that's what Itachi says, that's what everyone says, and no amount of pitiful reasoning on your part is going to overturn the obvious. I quoted penguin word for word because this argument isn't worth a well-thought out response from me. Oh, and i'd also like to point out that I am of the "Tobi is Madara in Obito's body" crowd, but you don't see me whining about that being on the page.StardustDragon 03:02, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

The manga says Tobi is Madara, and we'll just keep parroting that until the manga says something different. If you don't like that, then go write Naruto fanfictions where Tobi is really Obito instead of Madara if it so pleases you, but please not here on Wikipedia. Let's just be patient until something else appears in the manga that makes the Tobi-is-Madara people (of which I am one) curse Naruto's author's name and the Tobi-is-Obito people cheer wildly, or vise-versa. Until then, we're parrots. 206.116.72.161 (talk) 05:42, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Where, oh, where in my statement do you see me claiming that Tobi = Obito? I'm just enlightning the fact that it's practiacally impossible to be logical, assume by what's obvious, or even claim that facts stated in the manga are correct, simply because Kishimoto is obsessed with shocking plot twists and revelations... Heck, for all know and/or cares, Madara/Tobi could be killed without even revealing his face leaving us with nothining but the choice to write that Tobi claimed himself to be Madara... Which actually isn't such a bad idea, come to think of it... Yeah, why don't we simply change the info on Tobi/Madara to that he claims to be Madara instead of assuming that he is? 81.228.148.147 (talk) 20:35, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Because Tobi is not the only character to "claim" he is Madara; Pain and Zetsu do as well. We are not going to put a questionable spin on things just because some people choose not to believe it. Were we to do that, we might as well say the Fourth Hokage is only reported to be dead or that or that Kakashi only appears to have a Sharingan. Potential plot twists mean nothing until they are actual plot twists. ~SnapperTo 21:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

You mounted a personal attack on Penguin for not believing in your flawed theory that Tobi = Obito =/= Madara. That's what I call claiming that Tobi is Obito. By your logic, we should put that Jiraiya only "claims" to be Jiraiya because, yknow, Kishimoto's so darn obsessed with those plot twists. Sasuke isn't Sasuke either, he only claims to be Sasuke. Twerp. StardustDragon 16:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Not to stir this up again but some translations of tobi talking to pien read "The shanringans true power, my power, uchiha madara's power". Why would he say it like that? why would he make his power and uchiha madara's power seperate is he is indeed madara? not to mention the mask revealing only the right sharingan, Im not sure either way who he is im juast saying it is possible that tobi is obito. let me know your opinions. 71.244.104.101 (talk) 02:16, 16 June 2008 (UTC)z67

However, multiple characters calling hin Mandra (including Mandra himself) should take presidet over a single trasnlation of one line. Also, IIRC the argument over the this translation was discussed and rejected some time ago. --76.66.186.126 (talk) 02:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Madara=Obito is unlikely because Madara had obtained the MS well before Kakashi's life span and Kakashi got his eye from Obito, so if Obito/Madara would have had the MS,shouldn't Kakashi have already had it as well and not have had to obtain it in the time gap?

That's true... Obito's Sharingan only had a single tohome in them when he died, didn't they? B.T.W, didn't they recover his body (the Fourth showed up, so it's logical to assume they claimed his body and buried it in Konoha), and there haven't been any reports of anyone breaking into (or out of) Obito's grave. 142.26.133.248 (talk) 15:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

If they were able to get his body out from under the avalanche, they would have done it before he died StardustDragon 04:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe not. Obito was already dead by the time the Fourth got there. Kakashi and Rin wouldn't have had the strength to move those boulders by themselves. 142.26.133.248 (talk) 15:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

but kakashi developed the sharingan further after he got i from obtito (and kinda has th MS, watever that vortex thing is). So if obito is tobi wouldn't it be possible that he got the MS after he "died". I dont know if they did recover obito's body or not so im no help there. Just throwing out some ideas for consideration, wat do u guys think? 71.244.104.101 (talk) 03:44, 21 June 2008 (UTC)z67

With regards to the original poster, WP:COMMONNAME ensures you lose StardustDragon 04:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Mizukage

Within an online translation of Chapter 404, Kisame addresses Madara as Mizukage. Would it be fair to say that this is a legitimate translation, and if so, should it be added to Madara's description? 66.24.238.22 (talk) 05:04, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

since Tobi was the Mizukage that means he IS NOT obito...Obito was NOT a kage lol...so whatever fan base you people have for wanting a dead crushed ninja to be all powerful, that is done —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.20.8.87 (talk) 14:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

You never know. Kisame only called him the Mizukage based on his face, and it wouldn't at all be surprising if Obito's body aged and was used by the Mizukage. StardustDragon 16:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

What does MizuKage mean? 142.26.133.248 (talk) 22:01, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Most Likely King Of:

• The Uchihas
• Hidden Leaf Village (Probably The Old Name)
• Sound (Can't Hurt To GuessYouknowme(youdon'tknowme) (talk) 00:50, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Mizukage is the title for the leader of Kirigakure, from which Kisame defected. 66.24.238.22 (talk) 01:26, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Even as a joke, the "Tobi/ Obito" thing is getting old. Unless some connection between the two is stated, I really don't see what purpose it serves to discuss it further. 66.24.238.22 (talk) 01:26, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it could've just been a transformation jutsu, had their been and uchiha that was indeed the kage in another village the leaf would have known bout it considering the uchiha's are supposed to be exclusive to the leaf. so why havent we heard bout something like that before? 71.244.104.101 (talk) 02:00, 16 June 2008 (UTC)z67

Obito could however be the Mizukage on the grounds of the manga and anime have yet to say he isn't either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abracmike (talk • contribs) 07:52, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Could be, but given that there has been no mention of Obito being alive, and that Tobi has been consistantly adressed as Madara, there really isn't any evidence to support him being Obito. If at some point in the future Madara/Tobi's identity is drawn into question then it may be worth mentioning, but given that he is regarded as Madara as of now, I can't really see any benefits to restating the Tobi/Obito theory ad nauseam. 66.24.238.22 (talk) 01:54, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Additions to Akatsuki members' descriptions

This topic is meant for the additions to descriptions of the Akatsuki's members in the main article.

Deidara

Although during the Garra rescue arch in Shippuden(part II)he is first seen as only putting clay into the mouths in his hands as to infuse his chakra into it and make them into bombs, it is later in this same arch(after 1 of his arms is lost to Garra's sand attack, and the other ripped off and almost lost in another dimension by one of Hatake Kakashi's Mangekyo Sharingan techniques) that he is shown as being able to do the same with his normal mouth. Also, although I myself don't read the manga much, so I haven't seen this yet, I have heard numerous reports both from people online and friends who do read the manga that he also has a large mouth in his stomach. I'm not 100% sure of that, but I have heard it very widely. Deidara died blowing himself up against Sasuke.

Sasori

The only specific i have to add is that his name translates to scorpion. He also is/was well known as Sasori of the Red Sand. so, all of his puppets, including(and i forget their names)2 of kankuro's puppets, are branded with a red scorpion.

also, although i dont feel like looking up the specifics right now, could someone please add more about his puppets, major techniques, and abilities, such as the 3rd kazekage puppet, his technique to summon all his (i think 300, maybe more, i forget)puppets, and being able to somehow transfer his heart, the only truly living part of him left in his puppet body, into any of his puppets.

69.151.145.235 (talk) 17:55, 14 June 2008 (UTC)Evan(willgame4food)6/14/08

My response to that is that even though this seems like valid information, the very reason why the Akatsuki section was merged into this list was because it had too much description and not enough to assert notability. By adding the info, you would just be doing the same thing here, and since the only thing that this list could be merged to is the total character list, making it way too big, it is likely that this list would get deleted. The only thing that I can see that would indicate an outside source is the "scorpion" translation. Feel free to add that, get back to me, and I'll try to source it (since I need to learn how to source anyway). Sasuke9031 (talk) 18:03, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

..............

Naruto episodes are divided into two - part I and shippuuden. In part I, the major antagonist is Orochimaru, so, he gets to have an article of his own, while akatsuki, the major antagonist of shippuuden, doesn't... How come? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.177.204.73 (talk) 23:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Consensus, on the former Akatsuki Talk page, which you can get to through clicking the link provided by the redirect, was to merge Akatsuki (at least until Shippuden comes out in english if not longer {Given tome for notability to establish itself)) due to lack of notability. Sasuke9031 (talk) 00:31, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Madara is the Leader

I cant be the only one who thinks this, Madara is the one giving Akatsuki orders, and everyone takes orders from him. So that makes him the leader. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.217.214.243 (talk) 05:55, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I thought Pein is the one?Miss Lindsie aka LindsieandLance 08:01, 14 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by LindsieandLance (talk • contribs)

On another note of leader, in Chapter 404, it can also be noted that Kisame calls Madara the Mizukage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abracmike (talk • contribs) 07:39, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

It really doesn't matter, since Madara called Pain the leader himself. Leaders lead, and Madara has never done that for Akatsuki. Intellect Ninja (talk) 22:10, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Madara Uchiha is the akatsuki leader, Pein was just a cover leader so Madara could stay hidden. 3rd captian Gin Ichimaru (talk) 12:10, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Itachi's Mangekyou Transfer

There were essentially three main translations of the chapter where Madara tells Sasuke that Itachi gave his Mangekyou to him. In Itachi's section here, it says that Itachi gave Sasuke all of his techniques. However, that translation was the odd one out, for the other two said things along the lines of... "the power of his own eyes" and "his own eye power." Point is, it's still unknown whether Sasuke has all three techniques or just Amaterasu. Just as it's unknown as to whether Sasuke can only activate this Mangekyou when he sees Madara's own sharingan. Thought I'd share that, since I can't edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.99.169.251 (talk) 03:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

It was simply said that Itachi's "douryoku" or "eye power" was transferred to Sasuke. Bvdano (talk) 05:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that is what the majority of the translations came out as. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.97.162 (talk) 14:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Can someone please explain this so me? It's not very well worded.Megnetic (talk) 23:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

This statement under Itachi's section: "Itachi gives his Mangekyo Sharingan and all of its abilities to him in an effort to keep Sasuke safe and to help him someday kill Madara Uchiha." It's not certain that ALL of the Mangekyo techniques were given to Sasuke, because only one out of the many translations of that chapter said it was all the jutsu; the others simply said something like "Itachi gave you his jutsu," leaving it unknown whether Sasuke has all three of Itachi's techniques, or just Amaterasu. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.97.162 (talk) 15:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Eye power, or eye's power? Eye power is the ability to see, so If Itachi gave sasuke his eye power sasuke would be neerly blind(yay). Eye's power would mean Sasuke has Itachi's eye abilities. Btw I thought Itachi only gave Sasuke the black flame(sorry can't spell japenesse version).3rd captian Gin Ichimaru (talk) 12:23, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

madara leader?

in chpt 403 it seems like madara is reporting to zetsu, so why would the leader be reporting to a lower member? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.242.177.33 (talk) 15:48, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I dont read the manga much, but have read musch about these thingsa and have dicussed these things with friends who do. Is he acting as Tobi? If so, this is because, until revealing that he is in fact Uchiha Madara, he acts as Tobi, a lower ranking member who only becomes a full-fledged part of the group when he takes Sasori's place following his death. Up until he reveals this, no one knew who he Tobi really was. 69.151.145.235 (talk) 18:03, 14 June 2008 (UTC)Evan(willgame4food) 6/14/08

Madara was working behind the scene (and appear as Tobi) until he met Sasuke. Madara is the one who pulling the strings, while Pain is subjected to be the Leader of Akatsuki. That makes Madara is the one who founded Akatsuki, but wished to remain hidden from the worldwide (well.. he CAN'T be revealed alive after his fight with Shodaime Hokage). I hope this answered all the three topics above including this. -Reinn (talk) 10:48, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Pein or Pain?

So I see the header name is "Pain" but the translator's note says "pein." I don't have enough knowledge of kana and kanji, but it truly makes a difference. If his name is "pain," it is pronounced pah-eehn. If it is "Pein" then it is pronounced peh-eehn. Which is it, come someone clarify? --Taylert123 (talk) 18:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd say "Pein" is the Japanese version of the name, and that "Pain" is the approximate translation for it, but I don't know for sure. 142.26.133.248 (talk) 15:02, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

We had a big discussion about this some months ago before Akatsuki got merged. I was one of the .supporters of the e, but by a landslide, the a won out due to WP:MOS and WP:IAR. Since then I have been using Pain everywhere because I have come to understand that it maked the leader sound way more badass than Pein. Anyways, I'm not good with linking diffs quite yet. Just know that the vote was there. Sasuke9031 (talk) 18:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

That and his entire philosophy is seemingly grounded on pain, so it kinda fits with his name as well. 81.228.148.133 (talk) 13:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I liked "Pein" more, but then again, nobody cares what I think... StardustDragon 04:10, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of "Pein" or "Pain" whichever you'd fancy, it would seem that his real body is not amongst the ones which have seen thus far. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.184.226.16 (talk) 05:22, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I could have told you that a while ago... I was hoping his secret would be something cooler. Wait till next chapter for the team's interpretation of the message -- i.e. Naruto: "So the real one isn't with him?" -- before we do anything. For all we know right now, "the real one isn't there" could mean that Pain is Darth Vader. StardustDragon 16:03, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

sasuke has his own mangekyou sharingan

i think in the last manga chapter, madara said that sasuke recieved his own MS by killing the person closest to him, Itachi 00:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

We need verification. If you just THOUGHT/THINK/INTERPRETS that sasuke received his MS by killing Itachi, not citing reliable inline references to validate it, i am afraid you will be challenged to the full extent by editors of wikipedians. If, at any point, you are able to produce such necessity of having a trusted citation, you can change the page. Anyways, - Axxand (talk • contribs) 09:10, 30 May 2008 (Phils)

I dont think Sasuke was the one who killed Itachi, the latter died a natural cause. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.177.74.136 (talk) 04:39, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Who else could Sasuke have killed to get his Mangekyou? Orochimaru? I don't think so; Orochimaru (who Itachi killed) hated Sasuke for taking over him, and Sasuke hated Orochimaru for trying to take over him, so that wouldn't work. My guess is that someone with whom you are intimately friendy must die before your eyes. Killing them yourself is just the easyest way to make it happen. Yeah, Itachi was dying of tuberculosis, but he could've kept suppressing it with medicine. He spent all of his strength and chakra fighting Sasuke, and didn't have the strength left to fight it. So you could say that Sasuke metaphorically killed Itachi. 75.157.88.1 (talk) 20:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It could be that you don't have to literaly kill someone close to you to gain the Mangekyou Sharingan. For example: I think the reason Kakashi gained the Mangekyou Sharingan was because he felt so guilty over Obito's death and truly believed that it was his own fault. Hence the condition of killing a person very close to him was fullfilled. So Sasuke may or may have not killed Itachi, but he still felt the emotional trauma of feeling responsible and gained the Mangekyou. Zeldaboy121 (talk) 21:10, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Giant Swords

In Kisame's article, it mentions that all of the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist carry "large swords", but what about Raiga? He carried two average-sized swords, not one large one. Should this be changed, or does it not count since Raiga was a filler character? Noodle2D23 (talk) 18:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that it would depend upon where the "big swords" reference is from. If the author, or a character and therefor the author, said this fact it should be accepted as true. If it's a simple inference, from the obvious facts, than it should be something along the lines of "Members of the Seven Swordsmen tend to carry around large swords" which implies that most of the ones we've seen do, but not all of them.

- MewBlackberri who is too lazy to log in right now. 24.96.183.29 (talk) 21:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

raiga was a filler character and means nothing StardustDragon 03:04, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

it doesn't matter if he was a filler charachter(for those noob idiots that only watch the american version, ur currently in filler hell, and will remain there for over a hundred eps., thats y none of the new eps. are in the manga) the ideas/stories for the fillers are still made by Masashi Kishimoto, so he still counts as whatever he is called. so, in turn, he is part of the 7SS! 69.151.145.235 (talk) 18:36, 14 June 2008 (UTC)Evan(willgame4food) 6/14/08

Please refrain from mounting personal attacks on others that watch the American version. Raiga, as well as the other million characters of the day in the fillers, was not connected to Kishimoto's canon at all. StardustDragon 16:44, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

A more proper description is all memebers of the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist carried unique swords. Zeldaboy121 (talk) 21:16, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Akahoshi

You say Naruto kills Akahoshi in battle, but if you listen to the anime, Tsunade says that Akahoshi and his henchmen receive punishment by the village.....so lets change the little mistake please^^

Who is Akahoshi? 70.138.167.143 (talk) 17:13, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

A Villain from filler episode. -Reinn (talk) 11:31, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

He's not on the page. No one cares about filler people. StardustDragon 15:58, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Muramasa itachi, it does not matter that people do not care about characters in filler what matters is verifiable sources that chronicle the character's creation, conception, and reception, you should know this as you corrected me upon this once......,Grimmjow E6 (talk) 18:53, 12 July 2008 (UTC).

Pain

What's with the girl Pain in chapter 407 and can someone add the picture of the new Pains in chapter 407. Yimang1 (talk) 20:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's a girl yet. Facial structure is very similar to Sasori's, and you can never go by hair in Naruto, and there aren't any noticeable breasts or anything. Jumping to conclusions about gender isn't smart (remember Deidara?) or even neccesary.

The scene was hard for me to understand, at first I thought it was Konan, from the "get ready, Konan" quote immediately before the body's showing. StardustDragon 04:03, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Suggest that we wait until we got real legit translation in the coming chapters. -150.108.232.43 (talk) 14:04, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Pain's article says that Jiraiya's message was "the real one is not there", but also says Pain intends to attack before the messagew is decoded. That makes no sense, because they already know what the message says, but they don't know what it means. 142.26.133.248 (talk) 16:11, 10 July 2008 (UTC) You know how when Sasuke used his Sharingan to hypnotize Manda and Madara used his to hypnotize the Kyuubi, their pupils were replaced with the Sharingan? I think that's what the real Pain is doing; controlling the bodies with his Rinnigan so as to avoid direct combat. It's just a theory, though. 142.26.133.248 (talk) 16:11, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Except Sasuke couldn't directly speak through Manda, completely control Manda's actions, etc., and Madara's mind did not directly control Kyuubi. There's a difference between being hypnotized into helping someone and being someone. StardustDragon 18:37, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, how is Pain supposed to know if they have decoded it or not? StardustDragon 18:37, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

The Rinnigan is more powerful than the Sharingan, so who knows what it's capable of. However, Jiraiya still believed Nagato was the one contolling the bodies. (Read chapter 408.) 142.26.133.248 (talk) 16:21, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

BTW, notice how the monsters Pain summons have the Rin'negan instead of normal pupils and also have body piercings like Pain does. Maybe the Rin'negan is capable of a similar, but more powerful, form of hypnosis as the Sharingan, allowing its user to completely control what he/she hypnotizes. It's all just speculation of course. 142.26.133.248 (talk) 17:05, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Pain is not the Leader

I think we can all see that if Pain takes orders from someone else, he isn't the leader. And since Madara founded Akatsuki, that makes him leader. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.217.220.218 (talk) 03:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

That's too simple. The thing is that Madara refers to PAIN as the leader. This means we can't just say that Madara is the leader, even if Pain does as he says. 62.63.204.131 (talk) 15:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Pain is still the "leader" Tobi is still a member

But he could have been saying that in sarcasticly. because to everyone else, Pain is the leader. so it would technically be he is still the leader. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.217.220.218 (talk) 18:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Or maybe Pain is the leader of Akatsuki but Tobi is elevated above the organization? Sort of like Slayer in the Guilty Gear series? 81.228.148.133 (talk) 13:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

PAIN IS THE LEADER OF THE AKATSUKI IT WAS STATED THIS ON NARUTO MANGA 405,Mandara was the one that founded the akatsuki BTW you guys suck as naruto fans i dont even watch the show anymore i quited because it just wasn't dilivering all the hype it was getting,but i still read the manga.The difference between me and all of you is the fact that i dedicate my self by STUDYING all the anime and manga i watch.Check out my page if You want to grasp MOST of these animes,its not even all of them.Grimmjow E6 (talk) 02:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC) Grimmjow E6 (talk) 02:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC) Grimmjow E6 (talk) 02:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC) .......LOL i wasnt realy mad at what u guys was wrighting.I was just REALLY BORED.

"The real one is not there" was Jiraiya's message to Konoha. This means that there is a seventh Pain (the real one) controlling other six bodies. 142.26.133.248 (talk) 15:56, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Even if that is so we cant state that until that is actually said in the anime....what if the anime stops now we cnt just state that “it has one other pain″ if it has not been said in the anime it will be mere speculation......,Grimmjow E6 (talk) 23:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC).

Sound Four or Five?

Since there are five members (Kimmimaro, Kidomaru, Tayuya, Jirobo, and Sakon/Ukon) should it be called the Sound Five? There were originally only 4 (Kimmimaro came in later, though Sakon did make a reference to him while fighting Sasuke, "Even Kimmimaro woulda been better than this.") but still... Noodle2D23 (talk) 18:58, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I would say use sound four since they that is the name that they were called during most of the series and is the most common name for the group. I believe that a breif mention that they were once called the Sound Five when Kummimaro was a member would be sufficient. --76.66.184.175 (talk) 01:21, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Kimimaro specifically stated that "now that I'm here, we're called the Sound Five" or something to that effect, didn't he? If so, no question. Sound Five. StardustDragon 18:14, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

It was just a comment and in that moment they would be "Sound Three" because some of them died.--Tintor2 (talk) 18:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

it was just a flashback......Grimmjow E6 (talk) 23:58, 17 July 2008 (UTC).

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, all of them died. Saskon and Ukon were killed by Kankuro, Tayuya by Temari, Kimmimaro by his sickness or whatever, and I didn't see the other episodes, but I think Kidomaru and Jirobo died too, didn't they? Noodle2D23 (talk) 19:04, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Breifly about the sound 5 mention. Why Kiminaro did mention that name it is still NOT the common name for the group (Sound 4 was used more frequantly in the series) therefore it should not be used due to WP:COMMONNAME. A breif mention of the name Sound 5 may be apppropiate but using that as the main title is not. --76.66.180.128 (talk) 03:25, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, the only time the "Sound Five" has been mentioned was when Kimimaro asked Tayuya what happened to the other three members of the "Former Sound Five". This implies that Kimimaro isn't a member of the Sound Five any more (making it the Sound Four). In other words, They used to be called the Sound Five (when Kimimaro was still a member, probably before he got sick), but were called the Sound Four at least since they first appeared in the manga. So they should be called the Sound Four in this article, with a brief mention of the Sound Five in Kimimaro's entry. --JadziaLover (talk) 14:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

acctually, i the anime(i watch the japanese ver. but dont read the manga) the translation dattebayo used at points when the group talked of themselve during the whole sasuke retrival arch was the sound 5. even though only 4 of them initially came to get sasuke, kimmimaru was still a part of the group. and also, yes, there is no longer a sound-anything becausethey all did, in fact, die. 69.151.145.235 (talk) 19:07, 14 June 2008 (UTC)Evan(willgame4food) 6/14/08

Zetsu?

Sorry if I'm missing something, but is there any reason why almost all of Zetsu's information is missing?TobiSamoht (talk) 00:36, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Fixed it. Odd how no one noticed it when it was first removed. The Splendiferous Gegiford (talk) 03:15, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Update

Latest chapter, Madara informs Sasuke that he, in fact, did not summon the Kyuubi to attack Konoha, and that it was a "natural disaster". I'm not really good with editing, so someone should change that. --74.167.170.215 (talk) 17:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Madara could be lying to Sasuke to win his trust. Zeldaboy121 (talk) 20:52, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Possibly true, but at this point, speculation. We're stuck with Madara's explanation for know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.55.172.21 (talk) 01:44, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

The Akatsuki

Everyone knows about the akatsuki, but here are some things i have picked up that may be a little fuzzy to some people. 1. The Akatsuki leader and founder is Madara Uchiha 2. The Akatsuki has a cover leader named Pein/Pain 3. Current Akatsuki members are Pein, Konan, Madara(Tobi), Zetsu, and Kisame 4. Team Hawk is currently working with the Akatsuki to capture the 8 tailed-beast 5. Former known Akatsuki members are Itachi, Deidara, Kakuzu, Hidan, Sasori, and Orochimaru 6. The members are each given a tailed beast to capture these include: Tobi/Sasori: 3 tailed Deidara: 1 tailed Kisame: 4 tailed Itachi/?: 9 tailed 7. Leader Madara Uchiha is the mizukage(mist shadow) There! I hope that cleared up some info about the Akatsuki, but I expect a lot of people who disagree with my point of veiw.3rd captian Gin Ichimaru (talk) 23:53, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Question about placement of the Otogakure section

I noticed that the recently added section is at the top of the article but all the other secions are in alphebitical order. Based on that I belive the section should be moved near the bottom over the other section. The page is proteced so I can't change it myself. --76.66.189.245 (talk) 20:36, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It's a more logical order. Orochimaru is the titular villain for 90% of Part I and a big chunk of Part II, and ergo, a nice organizational tool is to put everyone related to him in the same section. Then you have Akatsuki and then Hawk. Zabuza and Haku are one-arc antagonists yet should be included, and an "Other" section is appropriate. sephiroth bcr ^(converse) 02:33, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Some minor stuff

Since I don't have an account I suggest that we list the names of the members in the akatsuki picture "From left to right: blah blah some names blah" Also for the picture of Pain 6 bodies I think it should be listed as "Pain's original bodies" since he have lost and acquired one. Just some basic minor stuff that I feel like adding but couldn't. -150.108.155.25 (talk) 22:51, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The members of Hawk are now members of Akatsuki

That is what we can deduce due to the cloacks in 408; also, the previous five members of Akatsuki plus the four members of Hawk , make nine members of Akatsuki again. So Hawk should be listed as part of Akatsuki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.141.59.109 (talk) 20:55, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

It's only a temporary alliance. The members of Hawk are wearing the Akatsuki robes to symbolize that alliance. 142.26.133.248 (talk) 16:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Add Anime only villains.

You should add the Filler villains as well. They count. Like Mizuki, Aoi, the Fuma Clan, Sound Genin (They appear in the manga, but i'm not seeing them in this article), Raiga (He qualifies as a Swordsman of the Hidden Mist Village) ETC. Why can't they be mentioned? Hell, why don't you mention the other Anime-Only Characters as well (such as Isaribi)? If you won't (which I think you won't), I'll have to go to a Naruto Wiki Site to see them, because wikipedia does not show them and I don't know why. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.123.242 (talk) 08:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It is because they are completely minor. If Fugaku Uchiha cannot have his own subsection, why can anime-only villains? It makes no sense. Perhaps you should read up on WP:N and WP:FICT. Sasuke9031 (talk) 09:55, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, so you are saying that EXTREMELY minor Characters are not worth mentioning at all? That's like Itachi stating that his younger brother Sasuke isn't worth killing!! Another thing, how come the anime only characters from BLEACH (such as the Bounts and the anime only Arrancar) aren't treated in the same fasion?! If you refuse to show them in any article, I will (as I mentioned before) go to a Naruto Wiki Site that will actually bother to put all Naruto characters in their site than this picky Wiki!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.106.155 (talk) 15:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

That would be for the best. Also, the Bount have the advantage of appearing in umpteen different episodes, which almost all Naruto anime villains do not. That is why they are mentioned in the Bleach articles. ~SnapperTo 18:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Why would minor charactors like them be importent? BTW The sound genin Zaku Abumi, Dosu Kinuta, and Kin Tsuchi are intorduced in 'The Chunin Exams' arc. Dosu is killed off neer the end of the same arc by Gaara, and Zaku and Kin are shown dead neer the end of The 3rd Hokages battle agenst Orochimaru in the "Invasion of Kohana' arc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 3rd captian Gin Ichimaru (talk • contribs) 09:03, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Why do you repeat random information about the series on these talk pages that don't contribute a thing to the discussion? Suigetsu 01:16, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Sound Genin?

do they deserve a mention? Because in my opinion, they do. A really small section under Otogakure would be fine, it couldnt hurt, and it would definitly help for people confused about who they are or what happens to them after the Chunin Exams, because I really had no clue until I saw it on here a while back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.87.69.48 (talk) 22:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

About Haku

Could someone please add that when Naruto first met Haku without his mask on he mistook him to be girl until Haku revealed he was a guy? I'm afraid that if I edit this page it might get reverted because of vandalism from other IPs. Thank you. 70.118.203.101 (talk) 17:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I added it, but if you guys don't like it, feel free to get rid of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.87.69.48 (talk) 22:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Tweaks and whatnot

I tweaked the order on the page, and am moving towards a format similar to that in List of Naruto characters. Now, is this all the characters we're including? As I see it, it's fine (we're excluding all the filler arc antagonists and most of the one-arc people). In any case, any tidbits of reception anyone could fine would be helpful, and the article could handle one or two more images and still probably satisfy WP:NFCC. Now, should that image be one of Orochimaru and Kabuto, one of the Sound Four (Five), or Zabuza and Haku? Adding all three is a bit too much in my opinion, but one or two of those would be fine. Discuss. sephiroth bcr ^(converse) 02:37, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The only image of the sound four with Kimimaro is the one of the volume 24 but it only shows their heads. Maybe the section of Zabuza and Haku could be called Kirigakure ??? or something since they are some kind of team.Tintor2 (talk) 17:38, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Uh, how about the Otogakure genin from the chunin exams, are they a no-go? A picture of Kabuto and one of Zabuza and Haku would be nice since we no longer have anything depicting them in any of the Naruto articles. Suigetsu 05:20, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Etto, since Oro already has his own article & pic, I'd support the Sound 4/5 and/or Zabuza-Haku. I'm not sure about the Otogakure genin from the Exams, do they matter so much? IceUnshattered (talk) 22:19, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I mean, for a while they were significant antagonists of the Chunin arc, only surpassed by Orochimaru and later Kabuto. 209.244.43.174 (talk) 02:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Problem regarding Itachi's voice actor

I recently was looking at the crdeits in the extra section of Naruto uncut volume seven and noticed that the character's VA were listed and Itachi's VA was credited as Derek Stephen Prince. Currently the VA is listed as Crispin Freeman so there appears to be a problem. I am not sure how to cite the DVD or how to make the info veriflble myself so some assistence is requested. I am assuming the DVD is more offical than the current source. --76.66.182.59 (talk) 06:54, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

He was voiced by another person at one point, im sure, but he wasnt one of them. I dont know wy it would say that. You sure? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.87.69.48 (talk) 16:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that's a mistake. Freeman was always listed in the credits for the broadcast episodes where Itachi aired plus it was confirmed back in February 07 by Skip Stellrecht [1] The Splendiferous Gegiford (talk) 17:10, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

way is snake on this page

team Snake is no a villain group Sasuke formed the group to change the Akatsuki so their not villens thedarklonewolf

But they are villains now. Team Snake, or as they are now called, Team Eagle, are now out to crush Konoha. Can someone help me out with the citebook stuff though? I'm not very good at it. Sasuke9031 (talk) 02:55, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkmage Rector (talk • contribs) 05:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

They are anti-villains, as I have already stated above. They are about to perform a very wrong action for understandable reasons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.43.190 (talk) 00:32, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It seems everyone looks upon Team Snake/Hawk, and Sasuke, as Saints. Just because they're fangirls/fanboys, doesn't mean they need to put up such weak arguments. They're evil and they're villains because they don't abide by the law. Simple as that. You can go into more details with your anti-villain stuff, but either way they're a villain. Just because you and I and other people think they're in the right, the fact Konoha is seen as the good guys makes it so that Team Hawk are the villains as they're out to get the good-guys. The world may not be in black and white, but the world of Manga is pretty close to it, all puns aside. Most people see the grey areas that the author may have not meant to put there. What I mean by this, is you have to look at what the author's intention for the story, and the characters, was before making judgment on this sort of thing. From my point of view, it looks like the author's intention was for them to be villains, even if to us it looks more like a grey area. Also, if your going to file a complaint I would suggest using capitals and punctuation so people will take you seriously, because to be blunt, I don't take you seriously.

- MewBlackberri who is too lazy to log in at the moment. 24.96.183.29 (talk) 21:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure he did mean to put these gray areas, though as you have already pointed out, that might not be the case. However, since we're discussing Povs here, here's mine. Before Madara's story, Itachi was seen as pure evil, the Uchiha as pure good, and the Sandaime as pure good. Now the Uchiha, including Itachi, are more or less good guys, light-gray, so to speak, same with the Sandaime, his advisors are dark-gray, though maybe not entirely black. You know, standard corrupt politician characters. Koharu and Homura do actually try to get Konoha back up and running sometimes when whoever the Hokage is is either dead or can't handle it. Anyway, I think Madara goes from light-to-middling gray to really, really, dark gray as time goes on. Oh yeah, and Hawk is really looking dark. Their motives aside, they are really messing up big.

Wanting to destroy the protagonists' village makes them antagonists, mmm? StardustDragon 04:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

When Team 10 sets out to annihilate Hidan&Kakuzu (who is responsible for Chiriku's death), were they called antagonists too? Because Team Snake did the same thing - To kill Itachi Uchiha who responsible for the Uchiha Massacre - releasing Orochimaru's prisoner along the way, and without killing anybody. True, they're antagonists now as Team Hawk sets out to destroy Konoha. But since their target only the elders and with Akatsuki providing backup, i doubt they can be called antagonists.. Or, maybe we should put the ENTIRE Uchiha Clan as antagonists too, as they want to revolt against Konoha back then? -Reinn (talk) 11:15, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I seriously hope you are joking, Reinn. Okay, lets start from the beginning. Sasuke starts as a protagonist under Kakashi, then goes antagonist under Orochimaru. Then he goes protagonist trying to take down Itachi. Now, he's not only trying to destroy his village's leadership, (which might be a good thing,) he's turning a blind eye to Akatsuki's attempts to capture and kill his best friend. And antagonist is kind of relative to who the protagonists are. You can't be an antagonist if you are working with the protagonist. Although maybe we could put the Uchiha as antagonists...

Sigh... Sasuke Uchiha and co. are villians. Although they first started out with the want of taking down Akatsuki member Itachi Uchiha (which was more of a revenge thing then a good deed). Oh wait! Should Itachi be a good guy? He was under orders by the hokage to kill the Uchiha clan. Now Team Hawk is working with the akatsuki to capture the 8 tailed-beast, and they show this by wereing akatsuki cloaks. I really don't see how all the fangirls/fanboys can still see Sasuke as a good guy. Good luck telling people that team Hawk are good guys when they capture the penultimate tailed-beast and hand it over to the main antagonists of the series!3rd captian Gin Ichimaru (talk) 23:36, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Sasuke prefers the term "using" Akatsuki. 209.244.43.174 (talk) 02:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Again i say this, theres a difference between villains and antagonists......Are the Akatsuki going against Naruto? Yes, Is the team working with Akatsuki? Yes Does that mean Sasuke, part of the team, part of the Akatsuki, is going against Naruto? Yes And what is that character called when he goes against the main character? Antagonist —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.59.182.188 (talk) 21:38, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Problem with current page.

I live in the USA so the only akatsuki members that have been shown are Itachi, Kisame, Orochimaru, and Zetsu. I am a fan of the akatsuki and liked to check to see if any new tailed-beasts have been captured or any more members have died. Since the big update it is harder for me to find out if any more members have died. To me it looks like Madara, Pein, Konan, Zetsu, and Kisame still live. I was hoping that someone would add the tads that say if a member is dead(or nuetalized in Hidan's case).3rd captian Gin Ichimaru (talk) 09:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

my problem is that you have kakuzu's death completly wrong first kakashi takes out one of his hearts, then shikamaru takes out a heart by turning hidan's curse against him with a capsuel filled with kakuzu's blood from when kakashi took out his heart, then naruto comes and finishes him with a new attack Fuuton:Rasen Shiriken. later when tsunade is examining whats left of his body it is showed that naruto's attack does damage on a cellular leval so no matter how many hearts he had left naruto would have taken them all out at once. i get my info from onemanga.com because you can read up to chapter 411 already and i am also in the USA so i would have no other way to get this info. Kakuhidafangirl (talk) 17:22, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Read chapter 342 again. Naruto leaves Kakuzu unable to move, and Kakashi finishes him off. ~SnapperTo 19:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Naruto takes out like, five hearts and Kakashi finishes the sixth. Suigetsu 01:17, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Out of Kakuzu's 5' hearts (One is his, the other four being for each other element [2]) Shows that he has 5 hearts, this being further proof [3]. Kakashi takes out the first with a Raikiri [4]. The second is taken out by Hidan via the blood obtained by Shikamaru and put on the Scythe [5]. Two are taken out by Naruto's Rasen-Shuriken and leaves him on the floor [6]. The final heart is taken out by Kakashi with his last Raikiri [7]. DaisukeVulgar (talk) 16:34, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Hidan

", though the voodoo link can only work while Hidan is in the Jashin triangular-design; if he leaves the design the link is severed, but he can reestablish the link when he returns to the design"

This was taken out of his 'profile' recently. Just curious as to why? Was this not worked out by Shikamaru? Or are you taking this out as you believe it to only be speculation? I might have to re-read this part, but I'm pretty sure it was proven so why is it out? DaisukeVulgar (talk) 20:01, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

It was removed because it is a minor detail. This article is meant to give an overview of the characters, not every facet of their abilities. ~SnapperTo 04:04, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't really see how it is a 'minor detail'. Without this detail people can be lead to assume he can preform it wherever he is as long as he has their blood. But hey, if it was already spoken about, i wont go against it. I just see it as a key fact to his 'voodoo technique'. DaisukeVulgar (talk) 04:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

seiyū VS voice actor

The term "seiyū" has no meaning to English speaking people and looks to be in these anime related articles to appease otaku. All instances should be replaced with "Japanese voice actor" or something similar. 72.160.121.86 (talk) 16:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Sasuke as a Villain?

It's stupid to have him in the villain section when all he really wanted was revenge for his clan. Sasuke didn't do anything wrong when he went to Orochimaru for training. He didn't really betray everyone because he was just doing what he had to do and Orochimaru had him messed up from the cursed seal. Sasuke is still a protagonist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.154.162.97 (talk) 05:07, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Half complaint/agreement, he might as well be the protagonist with all the freaking attention he's getting. Damn. Ok, that's out of my system. Unfortunately we don't have a category for "emo rogue" at the moment, so villain has to do. He ain't exactly been good about cooperating, after all. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 05:44, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Snake is what is categorized as a "villain". Sasuke is merely a member of Snake. ~SnapperTo 18:28, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Right, please elaborate how Snake has been villainous. Have they pillaged a village? killed or harmed anyone? Its an organization formed by Sasuke for the sole purpose of tracking and defeating Itachi. If anything they've been helpful to the Naruto world, defeating an Akatsuki member and freeing prisoners of Orochimaru. They are far from being a villains organization. Unless you can provide proof they've something to deserve that category. 134.121.250.173 (talk) 04:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Sasuke is a criminal, technically speaking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.242.232 (talk) 06:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

By the same token Haku isn't a villain, as he avoided killing others and only tried to please Zabuza. He still worked against the protagonists and did things of questionable nature. This list is the most convenient place for Haku and Snake to be, so here is where they are. ~SnapperTo 23:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

There are many gray areas... Animine (talk) 22:09, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

perhaps this article would be better labelled "List of Naruto Antagonists". that would get rid of the villainous aspect and aptly describe both sasuke and haku. --24.214.236.85 (talk) 14:21, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Well now that all the antagonistic characters with the exception of our one villainous GA are covered, I could go for something like that. Sasuke9031 (talk) 18:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Sasuke was the enemy in the last major battle of Part I, why is there any question to this? He has his own article anyways, so this shouldn't matter. StardustDragon 18:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, technically, you could consider Haku an anti-villain, and Zabuza a true villain (until he finally loses his ability to hide his emotions. Then he goes anti-villain, or maybe hero.) Snake is acting against Akatsuki, so technically they are anti-heros. Juugo technically has some anti-villain to him until meeting Sasuke: he has a chemical imbalance that sometimes makes him homicidal, but his sane side never wanted to do any of it.

antagonist is really the preferable word here. the definition of antagonist is that they are at some point set against the main hero of the story. that fits everyone on the list. --Wongba (talk) 21:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Sasuke has been listed in the official volumes on the side of the heroes since volume 39 Bvdano (talk) 18:11, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

The persons true color should not be included in the "are you a villain or not?" criteria. Haku may be pure, and Sasuke good in his intentions, but the fact remains that they are missing nin's, then, villain will it be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.177.74.136 (talk) 04:49, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, recently, Snake/Eagle has started to look villainous. But really, the intentions do still make him more qualified for the title "anti-villain" than "villain." He is now starting to look amazingly villainous in his actions, but there is still a different word for people who perform wrong actions for the right reasons, or vica versa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.43.190 (talk) 00:30, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Anit-hero = a person who does bad things for a good reason. Anti-villain = a person who does good things for a bad reason. Sasuke was an anti-hero... but seeing as he's now focused on destroying Kohana (probably in revenge for what the higher-ups made Itachi do to the rest of the clan) that makes him a true villain now. Too bad for Naruto... (v_v) 75.157.88.1 (talk) 17:20, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I think you have that backwards... I thought an anti-hero was somebody whose motivations sucked, but who did the right thing because of them. An anti-villain, meanwhile, will have an morally good reason, but be performing wrong actions because of them. An anti-hero will not always do the heroic thing: for instance, Zaraki Kenpachi from Bleach jumps into combat to enjoy it, and holds back to make it more fun, while running his division in a questionable manner. An anti-villain like Kaname will not always act like a villain, for instance, Tousen joined Aizen to further his attempts to eliminate strife, and thus punished Grimmjow for causing unnecessary bloodshed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.43.190 (talk) 03:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

There's multiple definitions, but the one generally accepted is that an anti-hero is a "good" guy who is more than willing to do evil things like commit murder to achieve his/her goals. An anti-villain, on the other hand, is someone who has his/her sights set on something evil like world domination, but seems to be a good guy at the surface. Star Wars has great examples. Anakin Skywalker is an anti-hero, and Palpatine, at least in Episodes 1-3, is an anti-villain; Anakin was a Jedi knight who lost his temper and went psycho from time to time, and Palpatine was a Sith Lord who utilized the laws and electoral systems of the Republic to take over the galaxy, all the while maintaining a grandfatherly demenor towards Anakin. While both Anakin and Palpatine became true villains in the oroginal trilogy, the fact that Palpatine obeyed the laws of the Rebublic's electoral systems to take over the galaxy instead of doing it through force makes him an anti-villain, and Anakin's willingness to enter a berserker state to protect his loved ones makes him an anti-hero. Do you see how it works? 142.26.133.248 (talk) 20:10, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Basically, it's chaotic good and lawful evil. 70.138.167.143 (talk) 17:15, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Sasuke's morals aren't the thing in question. Even if he thinks what he's doing is so great and justified, he still is evil. He disobeyed direct orders and left the village, not to mention having no qualms about attacking a former team mate. Morals aside, if you stripe it down to the bare-bone facts he's a villain, simply he sees the good guys as the villains. If you were to switch Sasuke to the protagonist section, you'd have to then switch Konoha to the antagonist section as their actions aren't exactly good and great either.

- MewBlackberri who is too lazy to log in at this moment. 24.96.183.29 (talk) 21:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

If one examines the articles here for Anti-hero and Anti-villain, the difference is definitely unclear, and in fact, Anti-villain appears to be a term that is difficult to define. I would agree as most have pointed out, and the article has been edited to reflect, that protagonist and antagonist are more suitable terms to employ, being simpler and easier to define, a protagonist being the main character a story follows (this series is called Naruto, even if it is following the Uchiha more closely for the moment.) The antagonist is the person that the protagonist goes up against, regardless of the motivations or reasons for the clash. Itachi is definitely an antagonist by Merriam-Webster definition, as is Haku, even if both are misunderstood. Sasuke once was somewhat of a protagonist, being a teammate of Naturo's, but he has more and more clearly become an antagonist. Kishimoto himself commented in the art book Uzumaki that Sasuke was really created to give Naruto a rival--meaning from the beginning you could barely put him down as a protagonist if we are to consider Naruto the main protagonist of the series. This business of anti-hero/anti-villain is meaningless to the wiki because of the lack in clarity and freedom from POV and therefore is a non-issue. Liashi (talk) 03:15, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Sasuke is an Antagonist! If you pay attenion you will notice that he attacks Naruto at the final valley, attacks Naruto and Sakura in the manga, and is now working with what remains of the Akatsuki to capture the remaining two tailed-beasts! Which means that he will be going after Naruto once again! Hope Naruto kills him... the stupid trator...3rd captian Gin Ichimaru (talk) 12:18, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Sasuke is not going after the nine-tailed fox. Madara assigned Sasuke to cature the eight-tailes, which means that Sasuke will not see Naruto yet. Zeldaboy121 (talk) 20:49, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Chaotic Good and lawful evil. Okay. But that would make Sasuke an anti-hero when he's fighting Akatsuki, because he's betrayed his village and the protagonists, and yet is more or less on their side, and kind of an anti-villain when he's going after Konoha's elders but doesn't plan to attack any innocent villagers (either an anti-villain or a true villain). Although protagonist and antagonist are a lot less confusing, so yes, they are the most appropriate things to put. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.55.172.21 (talk) 01:42, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

...You do understand Sasuke's allied with Akatsuki? Suigetsu 03:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I realize that. But he wasn't when he fought Diedara. Which is what I was talking about. It's thanks to him Diedara's gone, and he tried to waste Itachi too. He's their ally now, he wasn't then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.111.96.47 (talk) 06:37, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

...Sasuke's gonna be PO'd when he finds out Madara sent Pain to Konoha; Pain plans to kill everyone who gets in his way of finding Naruto (which would be pretty much everyone in Konoha who knows Naruto, which would be everyone), but Sasuke just wants to kill the elders who were involved in the Itachi scandal (Danzo, etc) and leave the rest of the village alone. 142.26.133.248 (talk) 16:21, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Alot of are missing the point of this article, its talkinga bout antagonists not good or evil, just antagonists, ppl going against Naruto. Doesn't matter if Sasuke's either evil or good. And since Akatsuki's going against the tailed beast, thus Naruto, then Sasukie's an antagonist —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.59.182.188 (talk) 21:32, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay, seeing the new chapter, I vote we make Sasuke a villain again. (Just kidding. But seriously, he's a total b-word.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.111.96.47 (talk) 08:52, 13 September 2008 (UTC)