Talk:Mensa International/Archive 2

Pop Culture trivia

I found (and corrected) the phrase "the murderer is a member of the less well-known 'Sigma' society http://www.sigmasociety.com which has similar requirements for membership to Mensa" in the article, which I consider to be remarkably bad English, (and thus am remarking on it).

Delete threat

There is an anti-Hi-IQ/Gifted Jihad in process at the moment. Already the Mega Society has been deleted and Ronald K. Hoeflin and The Ultranet are up for deletion. Who will be next? Marilyn vos Savant, Mensa? Don't take this lying down: the Mega Society deletion has been appealed, please go here and support its reinstatement with an overturn vote.

Possible articles under threat are:

Marilyn vos Savant, International High IQ Society, Mensa International, Intertel, Colloquy, CIVIQ Society, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry, Triple Nine Society, Prometheus Society, HELLIQ Society, The Ultranet, OLYMPIQ Society, Giga Society

--Michael C. Price ^talk 00:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Since I wrote the above more of the articles I listed have come under attack. The majority now have AfDs or warning tags attached. --Michael C. Price ^talk 06:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

As you may have heard the Mega Society article was deleted awhile ago, at the end of an acrimonious AfD/DRV process. There is a wide divergence between deletion policy (as defined by various policy guideline documents) and deletion practice, as implemented by admins (who claim to be following the "spirit" of the law). Consequently there are lessons to be learnt from the experience, which will not be obvious from reading the guidelines. Here are some tips for future conduct:

• Single purpose users are frowned upon and were a frequent bone of contention during the AfD and DRV processes. So I urge you all to "establish" yourself as Wikipedians: create, edit and even ... delete articles! There are plenty of articles that need attention.
• It is a very good idea to put something on your user page, (it doesn't matter what) to avoid showing up as redlinked users -- being redlinked will count against you in any debate.
• When voting, include brief reasons which are grounded in policy (votes not backed by reasoning may be discounted; too much reasoning will be ignored).

Given the bias against soliciting (see judgement) I may not be able to contact you again, so I suggest you put the Mega Society in your watchlists.

The closing admin's comments on the Mega Society:

Within the argumentation of the debate, the most significant point raised by those who supported the article was that a new draft was available. The article is not protected, so this may be posted at any time and (assuming it is not substantially similiar to the older version) it will be judged anew on its merits. This is good news for you.

The bad news for you is that it is well-established practice within Wikipedia to ignore completely floods of newer, obviously "single-issue POV", contributors at all our deletion fora. I'm among the most "process-wonkish" of Wikipedians, believe me, and even process-wonks accept that these sorts of voters are completely discountable. Wikipedia is not a pure democracy; though consensus matters, the opinion of newcomers unfamiliar with policy is given very little weight. Your vote, that of Tim Shell, and that wjhonson were not discounted. The others supporting your view were. I promise you that it is almost always true that, within Wikipedia, any argument supported by a flood of new users will lose, no matter how many of the new users make their voices known. In the digital age, where sockpuppeting and meatpuppeting are as easy as posting to any message board, this is as it should be for the sake of encyclopedic integrity. It is a firm practice within Wikipedia, and it is what every policy and guideline mean to imply, however vaguely they may be worded. (I do agree that our policies, written by laypeople mostly, could do with a once-over from an attorney such as myself; however, most laypeople hate lawyers, so efforts to tighten wording are typically met with dissent.)

If your supporters were more familiar with Wikipedia, they would realize that, invariably, the most effective way to establish an article after it has been deleted in a close AfD is to rewrite it: make it "faster, better, stronger." This is, in fact, what you claim to have done with your draft. Good show. Best wishes, Xoloz 16:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

So the outcome was not entirely negative, although I was disappointed by the admin's rather cavalier approach evidenced by the response to my enquiry:

.... why did you discount the votes of, say, User:GregorB or User:Canon? They are not new users, nor did I solicit them. I presume by Tim Shell you mean Tim Smith? ...... --Michael C. Price ^talk 16:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

to which I received this rather off-hand reply:

User:GregorB offered a very brief comment not supported by policy. User:Canon did take the time to offer analysis at DRV, but he had been among the first voters at the AfD to offer a mere "Keep" without explanation; therefore, I assumed he had been solicited by someone. Best wishes, Xoloz 15:50, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

which didn't fill me with confidence about Wiki-"due process".

Anyway, my grumpiness aside, the Mega Society article, is presently under userfied open-development at User:MichaelCPrice/mega, and will reappear at some point, when (hopefully) some of the ill-feeling evidenced during the debate has cooled. I am very heartened by the article's continued development, and by the development of associated articles. Thanks for everyone's help!

--Michael C. Price ^talk 14:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Poster Dennette Advocates Censorship

So I posted an addendum to the Mensa page and it was instantly reverted by the user Dennette [1]. I read his profile and I guess I'm not surprised by his behavior.

Here is what Dennette censored (which is true):

Ironically, for an organization known for intelligence, the Canadian branch has an archaic membership payment system. If an individual was to join in June and pay a full year of membership (approximately 90 dollars), their membership would only last until the end of December, at which point they would be asked to pay another year of membership.

You can see the change history here [2]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Source.transformer (talk • contribs) 02:00, 13 September 2006

I have to agree with Dennette here I'm afraid. While the comment may be true it is inappropiate for the article. This is a place to document the organisation as a whole (including criticisms of that society) but it's not a place to include one individuals personal criticism of their own experiance with the organisation. Also note that describing the payment system as archaic is in violation of wikipedia's neutral point of view policy.  YDAM TALK 08:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Mensa Canada's annual dues are C$55. Its members prefer to have membership based on the calendar year.Avt tor 18:52, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Userboxes for Mensa members

Editors who want to advertise their membership may use the "{{User Mensa}}" template to create a userbox on their page and add it to Category:Wikipedians in Mensa ... then add "{{User:Blast san/userboxes/User IQ}}" if you really want to show off. —141.156.240.102 17:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Mensa Boutique

http://www.mensaboutique.com/

states at the bottom.. "These pages and all contents copyright© 2000-2006 by American Mensa, Ltd. Mensa � and the Mensa logo appearing at the top of this page are registered in the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office by American Mensa, Ltd., and are the registered marks of Mensa International, Ltd. in other countries." Why should it have been deleted? 72.225.211.237 23:57, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Try WP:ADVERT and Wikipedia:External links#Links normally to be avoided ... that site does not contain any "useful information" about the orgnaization under discussion ... it's just a commercial site selling branded products to members. Copyright and trademark notices have nothing to do with it ... it's the "View Your SHOPPING CART" and "Go To CHECKOUT NOW" buttons on every page. Wikipedia is not a resource for conducting business. That was a spam link, pure and simple ... advertising links are forbidden in Wikipedia articles.

Check the history of this article and you'll see that links to Mensa National Groups (like Argentina, Hong Kong, Ireland, etc.) have been recently removed, because the link to Websites of all Mensa National Groups is sufficient (besides, Mensa International keeps it up-to-date) ... links to SIGs, RGs, and online IQ tests have been removed as well, all for being unencyclopedic. —141.156.240.102 (talk|contribs) 03:52, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

reading on this, SIG's are actually a key part of Mensa. Mensa is an organization much like the United States, and Sig's can be thought of as being states within the United States. Most members belong to various SIG's and they help maintain cohesiveness within the organization under the MENSA umbrella. GrandWizard 05:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a directory. People could use a Special Interest Group (SIG) link as a back-door to their online business ... sometimes they're just a link to a MySpace or other WP:VAIN page ... an encyclopedia is not a resource for social networking, so links to any SIG for any organization are inappropriate for Wikipedia articles. —141.156.240.102 (talk|contribs) 05:37, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

purely subjective, i'd like a consensus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.131.205.160 (talk • contribs) 23:28, 11 October 2006

Terminology and alliteration

I know this objection sounds a bit pedantic. We are using three terms interchangably on the page, "Mensan", "member of Mensa", and "Mensa member". I wanted to propose removing the third, as it is already superfluous, and phonetically unaesthetic (I know, De gustibus non est disputandum, which is precisely why I'm mentioning it here before I remove it). We have a double trochee where the first syllable of each is virtually identical. While poetically interesting, it doesn't scan well for an encyclopedia. I would suggest only using the terms "Mensan" or "member" (in cases in which the context is clear) here. Is there any opposition? (And obviously, terms like "Mensanness" would not be able to replace "Membership". Heh.) samwaltz 09:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The Far Side

Does anyone happen to remember on which date The Far Side mentioned Mensa? I'd like to be able to include that in the trivium added today. All of my TFS books are 5000 miles away. samwaltz 16:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

6.1 Pop culture trivia -> 7 Pop culture and media references

I changed the name of this section, and elevated it one level, so it is the same as "Trivia" instead of being a subsection of it. It was becoming a magnet for fancruft like "A member of Mensa was on a UK game show" and "There was a newspaper cartoon from 1995 that mentioned Mensa."

I also pruned it, leaving what I thought were the concise, well linked "encyclopedic" entries to films, and in the case of TV shows, ones where Mensa membership is a recurring issue in the storyline or a character's back-story ... for example, I'd never even heard of the British television comedy Green Wing, but the article for the fictional character Alan Statham is linked to Mensa International where his membership is mentioned, as are the articles for characters from The Simpsons and Stargate Atlantis.

There is no WP:NOTABLE for "trivia" and "pop culture" references, but I think we can agree that there have to be limits, or else this section could grow larger than the main article ... my apologies to anyone whose pet reference I deleted, but as editors we each have the responsiblity to fight "creeping cruft". —141.156.240.102 (talk|contribs) 19:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Little Yellow Map Pin

Probably just an anecdote, so I moved it from the main page ...

For many years, incoming members recieved a Little Yellow Map Pin (or LYMP) as part of their membership packet. It was worn as a lapel pin by members to identify each other at informal local events, such as a monthly TGIF at a popular and conveniently located establishment. Local monthly newsletters even advised members to obtain a LYMP on their own if it had not arrived yet, or if they ever lost it. Mensa discontinued this practice in the 1980s after an unfortunate incident involving the United States Secret Service, who were also using yellow map pins (of a slightly different shade) for agents to covertly identify each other when the President appeared in crowded public venues.

Somebody can put it back if they find a citation. --141.156.241.54 04:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

American Mensa did the yellow map pin back in the 1980's .... that is not a thing that we do now, and haven't for maybe 2 decades. The Mensa Boutique http://www.mensaboutique.org sells all kinds of signature things for us to proudly display our membership. It would be silly to talk about Mensa of more than 20 years ago. 66.23.230.122 18:01, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Copyvio

I've copyvio'd this, it is unquestionably lifted almost entirely from the about page of Mensa. Please note this is NOT anti-mensa sentiment or anti-hi-iq rallying, it just needs to not be a copyright infringement to be a good article. •Elomis• 22:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

This page has received hundreds of edits over time. Searching for phrases shows little that is directly copied from the Mensa International page. Discussion and consensus would be appropriate before removing this heavily-edited page from view. Avt tor 23:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

That was a Totally Bogus call, man ... see the earliest revision of this arcticle (02:55, 1 December 2002) and based on how long it's been around, consider that maybe the page on www.mensa.org is a copyvio of THIS page! Plagiarism? Maybe. Copyvio? Not even close!! 72.75.107.168 00:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I changed the "External link" from the Mensa Home page to the Mensa Information page that was cited as the source of the copyvio ... maybe this will avoid confusion in the future, since it's Right Up Front now. (Show me any article here about a social organisation that does not have a few things copied from the official pamphlets or website, and I'll show you a Very Poor article!)

Mensa has three stated purposes: to identify and foster human intelligence for the benefit of humanity; to encourage research in the nature, characteristics, and uses of intelligence; and to promote stimulating intellectual and social opportunities for its members.

Should someone put a {{fact}} tag on that sentence? Or maybe readers can just go to the site and see it for themselves in the "Goals" section. Gimme a Break! 72.75.107.168 00:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Before removing this heavily-edited page from view I considered {{db-copyvio}} but decided against it because obviously the page is well maintained, but it was GLARING that not just a phrase or two but enormous chunks appeared to be wholesale lifted from the about URL. I did consider that www.mensa.org is a copyvio of this page, well, as much as you can copyvio a GFDL page. Decided it was better to be safe than sorry so did what the guidelines outline which is blank the page and place the notice. Your criticisms are a little too heated to be considered civil. I reject the idea that it's Not even close!! to copyvio, it IS close, But if the consesus is that it's NOT copyvio then we should leave it for now, but perhaps some work should go into this to distinguish it from the website in question a little more. •Elomis• 02:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

There are now 4 {{cite web}} tags that point to the Mensa "About" page ... if you find any more "enormous chunks ... wholesale lifted from the about URL", then just put <ref name="mensa"/> next to them. —72.75.93.131 (talk · contribs) 08:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)