Talk:Oichi

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Oichi's alleged first marriage to Katsuie--source?[edit]

I have never seen any source, other than the one unsourced web page linked to in this article, that claims Oichi wed Katsuie both before and after marrying Nagamasa. The best I could do were speculations that she might have been a widow or divorcee when she wed Nagamasa because most women of the era wed long before they were 21 years old. Indeed, I find this difficult to believe, for several reasons:

  • Oichi would have had to divorce Katsuie to marry Nagamasa, which is inconsistent with their later actions.
    • If the divorce was voluntary (i.e., by marital incompatibility), it is unlikely that they would have re-tied the knot later in life.
    • A forced divorce is even less likely--a proud man like Katsuie would never have stood for it. Toyotomi Hideyoshi famously forced his sister Asahi Gozen to divorce in order to re-marry her to Tokugawa Ieyasu; the divorced man, an unremarkable peasant who just happened to wed Asahi before her brother started his ascent into power, was so humiliated that he disappeared and was never heard from again. Katsuie would have been expected to show at least as much rage and humiliation if the same happened to him. Even if he personally did not feel that way, Nobunaga would have been foolish to trust smeone whom he mistreated so badly. Yet Nobunaga entrusted him with a large army throughout his quest for power, and Katsuie never betrayed Nobunaga even when the latter was surrounded by enemies on all borders.
    • Whatever their divorce situation was, there was a long period between Nagamasa's death and Oichi's re-marriage to Katsuie. Why not re-marry right away?
  • Hideyoshi was rumored to have lusted after Oichi, and competed with Katsuie for her hand after Nobunaga's death. Although Hideyoshi was a notorious womanizer and had a fetish with noble births, such a rumor would have attracted much less fuel if Oichi was truly Katuie's ex-wife.
  • Katsuie was a loser to Nobunaga in 1557, and the concept of Nobunaga giving a hostage to the loser seems contrary to period customs.
  • If Oichi married Katuie following the latter's surrender to Nobunaga, it would have been a marriage of a 27-year-old man to a 10-year-old girl. Even in this era, that's pushing it, especially for a marriage that is not between two daimyo houses.
  • None of the biographies and historical novels featuring Oichi that I've read insinuates any such marriage. If the information really does exist, why not?

I'll wait for a while to see if a Wikipedian can provide a more reliable source, and delete the paragraph if no one come through. (Incidentally, the Japanese Wikipedia article on Oichi is also silent on her marriage, if any, prior to Nagamasa, nor is there any mention of Oichi before 1583 in Katuie's article.) --Zogmeister 16:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since there is no response, I've modified the entry to follow the standard version of her life as given in Japanese history textbooks (and the Japanese Wikipedia entry). I've yet to locate a single source that cites her earlier wedding to Katsuie, which means that (at a minimum) it is not a widely accepted fact at this point. While I was at it, I also corrected Nobunaga's year of death (off by 1 year), and added a brief section on Oichi's three daughters (possibly the most famous female siblings in the Sengoku era, if not the entire medieval Japanese history). Zogmeister 18:27, 22 July 2006 (UTC)\[reply]

Why I am modifying the second paragraph's last sentence[edit]

The sentence is missing word(s) (which I've marked below with ???) explaining the sentence's core concept. There are not enough clues left in the sentence to reconstruct what was originally meant. However, the version of that sentence from the Revision as of 09:51, 21 October 2007 is, "She was descended from the Taira Clan and Fujiwara Clan."

"Oichi was the younger sister of Oda Nobunaga; and she was the sister-in-law of Nōhime, the daughter of Saitō Dōsan. Oichi was equally renowned for her beauty and her resolve. She was ???, but her life demonstrates none of their characteristic flaws."

I compared http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Oichi&direction=prev&oldid=301955170 which is the last version with the old sentence and http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Oichi&direction=next&oldid=301949615 which is the first version with the new sentence. There was no intervening sentence that contained the necessary info. Both edits were made by Tenmei.

Also, no version of this article has references, so the only possible way of being sure of what Tenmei meant is to ask Tenmei. I will do so, and in the meantime change the sentence back to the original, even though I can guess that the antecedent for "their characteristic flaws" is the clans.

I'm laughing at myself for putting this much effort into this one sentence (feel free to join me!), but it was very educational for a newbie-ish person like me. Next time I think I can reduce my effort by at least half. Any feedback or advice is appreciated. Geekdiva (talk) 09:03, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Geekdiva -- Yes, thank you for noticing this problem and resolving it.
The error you corrected was just that -- a mistake. I like to think of myself as a careful editor, but the dangling clause is a puzzle I can't resolve. Speculation is likely to evoke more questions than answers. I can't explain how this happened, but I do remember how I came to be editing an article in which my interest was only tangential. I was developing the article about one of Ouichi's daughters -- the middle sister, Ohatsu, who was the wife of Kyōgoku Takatsugu and at Obama; and I discovered anomalies in the names referenced in related articles. My sole interest here was in trying to regularize the links amongst the sister articles, and the superficial effort I invested in the mother's article produced this mistake.
May I offer a few comments:
  • In my view, you are only half-right in laughing at yourself. At the same time, I would encourage the notion that you should be smiling with satisfaction because you've encountered one of those curious moments of happenstance which is, for me, one of the crucial reasons Wikipedia is "fun" (and worthwhile).

    In a sense, I would urge you to cherish the memory of this small edit because it illustrates how something small, something unexpected did spark a surprising curiosity and interest. In the pursuit of something which is ultimately trivia, you were not only improving the quality of the article someone else will read; you are also feeding something essential in who you are. At best, the surprise discovery that you have a suddenly genuine curiosity about something otherwise overlooked is an "event" with a meaning only you can parse. I think such moments give you an opportunity to discover something about yourself in terms only you understand. This may sound odd -- indeed, it may actually be odd; but there you have it.

    So please allow me to encourage you to savour similar unexpected enthusiasms when they appear in future.

  • Changing tone, it doesn't matter whether or not there were an antecedent for "their characteristic flaws" because the phrase leaps out to me as an ultimately unverifiable "factoid" -- and therefore, it should be deleted because it fails to conform to the reasonable logic of WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and WP:V.
  • In conclusion, you have now answered a question I've wondered about for some time. Now I know a little bit more about what happens to those articles I only touch tangentially, as happened here. --Tenmei (talk) 16:09, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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External links modified[edit]

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