Talk:Sin (mythology)

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Untitled[edit]

Sin plays no role in Judaism.

I am deleting this POV vandalism.

removed

Critics of Islam point out that the Kaaba was an Arabian lunar temple to Sin prior to the Islamization of Arabia. They say that Sin is the Allah of the Koran.
Bible critics also say Biblical Jews prayed to Sin although this is rejected by believing Jews.
  1. While the Kaaba was a pre-Islamic pagan shrine, I am not aware of any evidence that it was exclusively, or even primarily, dedicated to a lunar deity.
  2. While the claim that Muslims worship a moon god is an old staple of polemics, mainly from Christians, it is unsupported by the evidence and is probably not worth mentioning here, though it should be discussed somewhere. (One of these days I'm going to write an article on Christian-Muslim controversialist literature, unless someone beats me to it.)
  3. Who claims that ancient Jews worshipped Sin? Joe Guretzki, according to the this old revision, but who is he? Not a reputable scholar of history, mythology, or archaeology.

Charles P. (Mirv) 14:11, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Sin and ancient Judaism[edit]

Certainly I wouldn't challenge that there's no evidence of Sin playing a role in anything like historical Judaism. But there has been some scholarly speculation about the traditions regarding Abraham and his family and their possible connection to the worship of Sin.

Apparently this speculation is based around the connections to both Ur and Haran (both cult centers of Sin) and certain names (Laban, Terah). Try John Bright's "A History of Israel" for a brief mention of this.

Anyway, it's not much, and it doesn't say anything about Judaism per se. At most, it's a possible element in the religion of the patriarchs.

I would guess this is the link with Islam as well. Since the Kaaba was a site associated with Abraham (and there's evidence of the worship of the moon deity in ancient Arabia), one could make a very stretched claim that Islam is somehow distantly derived from the worship of the moon deity--but that would be a strange claim from a Christian, who would then have to admit the same of his own faith.--Thuloid 04:33, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Thuloid, your last comment doesn't make a lot of sense. The Kaaba is associated with Abraham (and Adam) according to Muslims, but of course Christians (or any other non-Muslims) would doubt that Abraham ever went anywhere near Mecca. Crust 18:56, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

You're right--Christians probably wouldn't say that (although who really knows what the range of an early 2nd milennium nomad was?). I don't think my claim depends on it, though. As someone else pointed out, there's no evidence the Kaaba itself was ever dedicated to a lunar deity. The only association with it would be that Abraham has been associated with lunar worship by way of place and family names, and that lunar deities were worshipped in ancient Arabia. But to connect that worship to the Kaaba specifically, one would have to either have independent evidence that it was a lunar shrine or admit an association of it with Abraham and claim the association with Abraham implies a focus on lunar worship. Since no independent evidence (so far as I know) exists about the Kaaba and lunar worship, a Christian making this claim would have to make the claim about Abraham himself (that association with Abraham really does imply lunar worship). In my opinion, that would be a little strange.

Perhaps a different claim is possible--that only Muslim traditions about Abraham are associated with lunar worship. I don't see how this would be reasonable.--Thuloid 04:19, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Lucifer?[edit]

was Lucifer inspired by Sin? the meaning of their name is similar, illuminator vs light-bearer/morning-star his symbols are the crescent moon, the bull, and a tripod (which may be a lamp-stand). the tripod looks seemingly like the triton, or the devil's pitchfork... and certainly lucifer was potray many times with horns...

Rebuttal[edit]

The section entitled "Lucifer?" was poorly researched, if it was researched at all and I suggest that it be removed. Lucifer is a Latin word and it was the name the Romans gave to Satan (who are what was referred to by the word "satan" in the Torah and the Gospels is another whole debate - for this see _The Origins of Satan_, Elaine Pagel). Lucifer actually comes from Greco-Roman origins, as opposed to Mesopotamian ones and, prior to its use by Christians, was just a word that referred to the planet Venus. This word was later said by Christians, and only by extra-Biblical folklore, to refer to Satan. Much of so-called "Christian" conceptions of Lucifer and Satan are extra-Biblical anyway. The Bible only even mentions Satan explicitly in the Book of Job and the Gospels and the word may even have referred to a category of angels who do things that human beings don't like but that God needs to have done (like take peoples lives). (Again, see Pagel for this).

But, I digress. The author of the "Lucifer?" section is grasping at straws to find similar symbolism. Lucifer was only ever depicted with bull horns during a Middle Ages, Rennaissance and Early Modern periods. He was depicted as having purely human features earlier and later was depicted as having goat horns. "Illuminator" and "morning star" bear UNNOTEABLE resemblence if anybody bothers to think about it. What else would one call the Moon? "Illuminator" is a fairly obvious epithet for any mythological lunar character from any mythology. "Light bearer" refers to the planet Venus, not to the moon. I've never heard that the cresent moon IS symbol for Lucifer and the author never sites any sources for it. The Bible attributes the creation of the Moon to God (Genesis book 1) and Judeo-Christian mysticism has various angels (different traditions disagree) responsible for the moon. The crescent moon, however, IS a Muslim symbol and, since Islam also came out of Mesopotamia a connection there seems far more plausible. I won't even mention the absurd comparison between the tripod (a three legged stand used by people throughout that part of the world in ancient times, including the Greeks, and a relatively common item) and Lucifer's pitchfork. Not only is Lucifer's pitchfork depicted with various different numbers of prongs, but the only similarity between a three pronged pitchfork and a tripod is the number three, which is an EXTREMELY FLIMSY comparison. There are innumerable reasons (no pun intended) as to why 3 would be associated with some mythological figure. If the number three means anything with regard to Nanna, it would be something like the first crescent, the full moon and the last crescent or waxing, full and waning perhaps. But, even this would still be pure speculation.

The article "Lucifer?" isn't just POV, it's sophistry. I suggest that it be removed at once. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.92.1.178 (talk) 01:58, 28 January 2007 (UTC).

Mount Sinai/Horeb[edit]

Isn't Mount Sinai, one of the names of God's mountain in Genesis, named for the god Sin?Jim Lacey 19:59, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The God of the Israelites was in general associated with mountains, be it Horeb, Sinai, Moriah, Zion, Gerizim, Mt. of Olives, Carmel, and so on. In fact, this is implied in one of the epithets applied to God, 'El Shaddai', which etymologically has an association with mountains.
However, there is no evidence whatsoever that Israelite worship had any connection to worship of the moon. None of the Biblical names applied to God seems to imply moon worship, and there is no reference to the Hebrews worshipping in particular the moon god. They seem to have originally worshipped multiple deities. El and Asherah were originally deities associated with Canaanite religion, and the name 'Elohim' also represented the Ugaratic pantheon.
Furthermore, Sin and Nannar were originally two separate gods, associated with the moon, but worshipped by two distinct cultures. Only later were they equated (like the Romans equated their own gods to Greek gods).
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 22:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Crescent remains in Islam[edit]

The moon crescent, the symbol of this god, remains in religious use, in Islam.Agre22 (talk) 19:57, 4 April 2009 (UTC)agre22


The "star and crescent" symbol is said by scholars to only have become associated with the religion of Islam by most authoritative accounts around the 15th century CE, specifically when the Ottomans adopted it. Star and crescent a scholar from Cambridge University notes the following on this issue [1]Historylover4 (talk) 18:04, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I think it was a little before the 15th-century, but you're correct that it was not an early Islamic symbol, so that it's hard to see any connection with ancient Mesopotamian religion. Some would say that neither the crescent of Islam nor the six-pointed star of Judaism is a truly religious symbol, but rather they are cultural symbols commonly associated with the believers of certain religions... AnonMoos (talk) 02:20, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

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