Talk:Uruk-hai

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Untitled[edit]

This page has great detail of Uruk hai but not enough about what they did.

It's also based entirely around the movie - in the book, there was only one elf at Helm's deep. Unfortunately it's been long enough since I read the book that I'm not sure what other relevant differences might exist.

Grishnakh a Uruk-hai?[edit]

It says in moria that there are "Black Uruks of Mordor", but that does not mean that Grishnakh and his men are said Uruks. The Isengarders were the only ones to my knowledge who refered to themselves are Uruk-hai. Is there any evidence to suggest that the orcs of the red eye were Uruk-hai?- Purple Pikmin

Origins of Uruk-hai[edit]

There are actually suggestions that Uruk-hai was just a general name for all large orcs, including a new breed of black orcs bred by Sauron, and Saruman orc-men, which have nothing in common except being larger, stronger etc. Ausir 12:16, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Quite correct. Uruk-hai simply means 'Orc folk', and the Uruks referred to the more traditional Orcs (goblins) as snaga (slave). Compare Olog-hai -- the "new and improved" trolls. Anárion 12:22, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I still feel that clarification is needed on this in terms of the movie's representation: "crossing Orcs and Goblin-men" is an oxymoron. "Goblin" is just an alternative name for "Orc" (essentially "Goblin" is a slang-term for the race properly termed Orcs, from the Quenya "Yrch"). Goblins and Orcs are the exact same race: they are all "Orcs". Thus this line from the movie is essentially saying "crossing Orcs and Orc-men". However, "Orc-men" is often used as another name of the Uruk-hai. So the entire movie-line suggests that "Saruman has created Orc-men by crossing Orcs with Orc-men", which is impossible. Indeed, there is no such thing as "Goblin-men" as a distinct race before Saruman (and Sauron) made the hybrids.

I would like to say that in the LotR games (endorsed, I might add) specifically list Goblins, Orcs, AND Uruk'Hai as enemies. User: Cpettijohn93 —Preceding comment was added at 17:49, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quibble: yrch – uttered by a wood-elf – is clearly not Quenya which did not use the vowel /y/. —Tamfang (talk) 00:37, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

From a purely book-centered viewpoint, I fully acknowledge and accept the points made above that they are "Uruks", "Orc-folk", etc. The "squint-eyed southerner" in Bree was probably the result of some of these experiments, as were the "half-orcs" among the Ruffians in the Scouring of the Shire. Truthfully, the book is pretty vague on the exact nature of this; case-in-point, Treebeard ponders what exactly these servants of Saruman are, "are they Men he has ruined, or has he somehow *blended the races of Men and Orcs*? That would be a black evil!".

But sticking to the (admitedly simplified) "rules" of semantics within the movies, I feel that the quote by Gandalf at Rivendell in the movie was confusing to movie-goers how haven't read the books. More or less, Uruk-hai are a Human-Orc hybrid. Again, how could he have "crossed Orcs with Orc-men to create Orc-men"?. I think they didn't want to imply that Saruman was having Orcs rape Dunlending women (possible source) in order to breed Uruk-hai. I personally don't believe that's what the books implied either. I personally feel that the Uruk-hai are Orcs "magicially", or alchemy-aided into being crossed with human-characteristics; they're "test-tube creations" (this could be what happens in the scene in the movie; I made the early-Tolkien theory reference). However, on the whole I share Treebeard's confusing and haven't settled on the matter in my mind.

The reason I say all of this is because on the cast commentary on the Extended Edition DVD they all seem to believe that Uruk-hai are a hybrid of "Orcs and Goblin-men" when in truth they are a hybrid of Orcs and Men. Should the article be amended? Ricimer 15:11, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Uruks as a crossbreed of Orcs and Goblin-men (err... Orc-men?) are just Jackson's interpretation of the origin of Uruks. In the books Saruman did not "invent" them, but Uruks appear much earlier in the Tale of Years, conquering Ithilien. Personally I believe that the very fact Tolkien described some men as "goblin-men" is enough evidence that the Uruk-hai cannot have been simply Orc-human crossbreeds: Tolkien always equated the two terms goblins and Orcs. Consider the aftermath of the raid of the Rohirrim of Éomer on Saruman's troupe of Uruks that had captured Merry and Pippin: I believe the one point "goblin" is used in LotR (aside from Hobbittalk) occurs, when the Three Companions see a "goblin-head" on a spear. This was certainly an Uruk of Saruman, and yet called a goblin — therefore Uruks are Goblins, and Goblin-men already described "orkish men" or possible "mannish orcs". No matter how this comment is further interpreted, fact is that the only evidence we have about Uruks is that they were far more powerful than the "classic" Orcs, and did not mind the Sun much. Anárion 19:30, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
On the same DVD they consistently refer to the Rohirrim as the Rohan… so even though evidently very passionate about the subject, they did not have their facts quite right. Consider also the Jackson claim that Sauron had no phyiscal form during the War of the Ring despite evidence that he did.Anárion 19:32, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"No matter how this comment is further interpreted, fact is that the only evidence we have about Uruks is that they were far more powerful than the "classic" Orcs, and did not mind the Sun much." I agree fully. I am aware that the Uruks of Sauron aided the attack on Ithillien ~100 years ago (thus they showed up earlier).

And I also agree that the uninformed usage of Rohan and not Rohirrim gets annoying (although they are careful in the film itself) but more annoying is the "he can't take physical form yet" line: the Great Eye *is* his physical form. However, the production and design team commentaries show that Richard Taylor, etc. had it right. I still feel that "Goblin-men" is a poor name though. I feel all would have been better if they put in that Treebeard quote. Ricimer 19:57, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Actually, the Great Eye is not his physical form. See: Eye of Sauron. Ausir 10:16, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes, yes, I know: Gollum's comment that "the Black Hand has four fingers...", etc. and Tolkien's statements all saying that he has a body of some sort. But the exact line "he isn't powerful enough to take physical form yet" is blatantly incorrect. Ricimer 23:30, 15 Aug 2004 {UTC)

I recently bought a strategy game based on The Lord of the Rings called War of the Ring. One of the missions has the player breed the Uruk-Hai. This is done by corrupting the barrows of the wild men of the Druidan forest (excuse any misspelling). Evil spirits are drawn from the corrupted barrows, which Saruman then binds to his orc warriors. Is there any merit to this?

Uruk-Hai doesn't mean Orc Folk[edit]

I disagree with the translation of Uruk-Hai as meaning Orc Folk. Here are my reasons:

The word uruk means Orc, while uruk-hai is only used to refer to the larger breed of orcs. If Uruk-hai ment Orc folk it would refer to all orcs and not just the larger breeds.

This fits much better with the other -Hai ending word we have, Olog-Hai. Olog-Hai refers to a new and improved breed of Olog, Trolls.

This leads me to believe that the -Hai suffix actually has an augmentative meaning that means "better" or "improved".

  • No, etymolygists have quite a bit of evidence on this. It's closer to "Orc-breed" as in "Orc-thoroughbred". Plus they were often called Uruk for short as opposed to normal Orcs. Regardless, it doesn't mean just "improved".---Ricimer
Sorry, but the translation of Uruk-hai as "Orc-folk" has been confirmed with the publication of Tolkien's linguistic commentary on the Lord of the Rings in Parma Eldalamberon 17. 96.228.21.56 07:58, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Uruks and Uruk-Hai[edit]

Actually, there is probably a difference between Uruks and Uruk-Hai.

When the Uruks first attacked Ithilien, they came from Mordor. This may mean that Uruks were just some breed of Orcs that Sauron bred or stumbled upon and found more useful in combat ,because of the harsheness of Mordor, than other breeds. In later passages, Orcs in the service of Mordor are referred to as Uruks sometimes. Though it translates to "Orcs", the Annals said that this term was generally applied to the great fighters and soldiers of Mordor.

Uruk-hai seems to generally refer to "the Isengarders". This implies that they are different from one-another, if only slightly. Pippen noticed that the Orcs from Mordor had long arms that dropped to their crooked legs. The description of the Uruk-Hai doesnt mention extremely long arms. Secondly, as mentioned before, Olog-hai were "improved" trolls, so Uruk-Hai may just be improved Uruks.

On the other hand, when Frodo and Sam eavesdrop on the two Orcs tracking them in Mordor, one mentions that the cause of all the trouble could be a "pack of rebel Uruk-hai". It is highly unlikely that the Uruk-Hai travelled to Mordor. Saruman may have sent them to show off to Sauron, but that is improbable because the Uruks are so similar. This suggests that Uruk may be just short for Uruk-Hai, which in turn refers to the larger, stronger Orcs used as close-combat soldiers.

Dispute: Uruk-Hai and Half-orcs[edit]

There's been some dispute over wither or not if the Uruk-Hai are jsut simply better bred orcs or Half-Man, Half-Orc. The Tolkien Encyclopedia seperates Uruk-Hai and Half-orcs, and may be of different orgins. Encyclopedia of Arda does not nmake any reference to the urk-hai being the same as the Half-Orcs. I believe it is time to clarify this issue. --User:Eldarone 05:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I now removed the part about all Uruks being hybrids, added by 222.126.76.205 on March 26. What s/he wrote was:
It is not clear in The Lord of the Rings itself, but Tolkien later intended all Uruk-hai to be orc-human hybrids.
There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile. (Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed" - Text X)
The Men-orcs are the Uruks while the Orc-men are the "goblin-men" in the Shire, or so it seems.
There is nothing in the given quote from Morgoth's Ring that states that "Men-orcs" applies to Uruks. (The poster also admits that s/he only thinks it seems that way.) There simply isn't any support in Tolkien's writing for this kind of assumption, at least any such quote would need to be presented. --193.71.196.238 07:29, 27 April 2006 (UTC) (Nick Knutsen)[reply]

Uruks are the same as Uruk-hai[edit]

Uruks are the same as Uruk-hai, and Uruks are not Half-Orcs bread by Saruman. Some of this has been mentioned before, but I thought I would present it all here. This all relates to the works of Tolkien, not the interpretation from Peter Jackson.

  • Tolkien wrote the following in Appendix F to TLotR ('Orcs and the Black Speech'): "Related [to the word 'Orc'], no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kind were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga 'slave'." Why would Tolkien first talk about the soldier-orcs (named as uruks) in contrast to the lesser orcs, and then suddenly relate what a third kind of orc (the Uruk-hai) would call the lesser kind? It seems clear that the two terms mean the same.
  • This confusion has probably arisen because all of the times when Uruks are mentioned they are refered to as coming from Mordor (probably by chance), while the Uruk-hai is mentioned mostly in Book III Chapter 3 'The Uruk-hai', where of course they come from Isengard. In actuality the word 'Uruk(s)' (as opposed to 'Uruk-hai') is only mentioned in the narrative of TLotR three times! But in Appendix F to TLotR (quoted above), it says that Uruks issued from Mordor and Isengard.
  • The word 'Uruk-hai', when not refering to the specific band of Orcs of the White Hand that captured Merry and Pippin, appear only one place! In Book VI Chapter 2 a soldier orc is talking about what raided the Tower of Cirith Ungol, according to rumour, and he mentions "a pack of rebel Uruk-hai"! This is of course in Mordor, so he must be talking about a pack of Mordor orcs.
  • The fourth proof of my point can be found in the Index to Unfinished Tales. There is stated: "Uruks: Anglecized form of Uruk-hai of the Black Speech; a race of Orcs of great size and strength" Related to this, it's clear that all through the narrative of TLofR, the only time the term Uruk-hai is used, is when the Orcs are talking.

As for the commom notion that the Uruk-hai were bred by Saruman, this is purely based on the presumption that the Uruk-hai where different from the Uruks. As mentioned above, Tolkien wrote that the Uruks "issued from Mordor and Isengard." Whether this means that Saruman bred Uruks or just employed Mordor Uruks, isn't clear. Treebeard's statement was that Saruman "has been doing something" to the Orcs, and that Saruman's Orcs can endure the Sun. The only thing we can deduce from Treebeard's account, is that Saruman was changing his Orcs, probably by breeding, possibly creating a new 'strain' of Uruks from Mordor Uruks. But it's clear that the Uruks came originally from Mordor.
In Unfinished Tales, note 7 to 'The Palantíri', Tolkien (J.R.R.) writes this about Saruman in Isengard: "The use, and possibly special breeding, of Orcs was kept secret, and cannot have begun much before 2990 at earliest."

So the conclusion is that, while 'Uruk-hai' and 'Uruk' has the same meaning, there might have been differences in Saruman's Uruks as compared to the Mordor Uruks. It's not clear what these differences are. (Treebeard's deduction that Saruman is purely responsible for the new kind of Orcs needn't be correct; quite probably he had never seen an Uruk before Saruman's Uruks.)

The Tolkien Encyclopedia refers to the Uruks from Mordor as Uruk-hai. In its entry on Half-Orcs, it states that Saruman bread these as mixes between Dunlendings and Orcs, and between Dunlendings and Uruk-hai. Quoted here: http://forums.lotro.turbine.com/archive/index.php/t-1519.html. I'm not sure about the reputability of this source.
The Encyclopedia of Arda also refers to 'Uruk' as a short form of 'Uruk-hai'.

I think the main article in Wikipedia should be updated to reflect this. It's true there is some debate over this topic, and the article should probably mention that there is, but it's clear what is the case from the text in TLotR and Unfinished Tales. It should also be mentioned that Uruk-hai means Orc-folk. See the Wikipedia entry on Olog-hai.

193.71.196.238 21:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC) (Nick Knutsen)[reply]

–Djamshid Nersi That is correct. The name URUK was taken by Tolkien from the Sumerian mythology. URUK was a city in Sumer. It was located in the north of city UR. Acording to recent excavatins, the Archaic Sumerian, or, the early civilizations of the early third millennium, witch soreads in the big cities was faced with the notable floods time to time,Shurrupak, KISH and URUK among them. So the king GILGAMESH decided to make a wall around his Capital City URUK. you may read more about the EPIC in the Penguin Classics " The Epic of Gilgamesh".

Without concrete references we can't say for sure that he took "uruk" from the Sumerian language/mythology (though it's likely, but you never know). It's speculation and original research without references. Uthanc 05:48, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sumer[edit]

I understand a lot of the names Tolkien had used were based off of Norse mythology, but is it a possibility that Uruk(-hai) was a name borrowed from the ancient Sumerian city? I have not been able to find an answer to this. If this is true, I think it should be mentioned. JanderVK

So whole Sumerian civilization is very orcish as it is. 88.190.223.227 (talk) 17:22, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No evidence for a Sumerian connection. Resemblance of words does not by itself imply influence. -- Elphion (talk) 20:48, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Unless you will check this. 88.190.223.227 (talk) 10:06, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I searched that page for 'uruk', 'Erech', 'orc', and 'Sumer' and came up with no evidence. 'Uruk' is not even mentioned, and for the rest, well, random unsupported speculation on fan threads does not constitute evidence. -- Elphion (talk) 02:25, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Search for 'Sumerian' instead. 88.190.223.227 (talk) 16:08, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that would be included in a search for 'Sumer'. -- Elphion (talk) 18:08, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Berserkers[edit]

Is it worth making an article about the Berserkers out of the film?--Andy mci 22:03, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not unless this was a Tolkien-centred wiki. Uthanc 09:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Truth of the Uruk-hai[edit]

The Uruk-hai are simple crossbreeds of human and orc, equivalent to a corrupted version of half-elves. There are two subspecies:

  • Morgul Uruk-hai, bred by Morgoth and Sauron, similar to orcs but much larger and stronger.
  • White Hand Uruk-hai, bred by Saruman, largely identical to the former, save with an added resistance to sunlight. --Zenoseiya 22:53, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Any relation to...[edit]

...the ancient Sumerian city Uruk? 71.113.38.68 03:01, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Uruk was build by GORKAMORKA WAAAGH! power, which used human slaves, so Sumerian civilization is hybrid of orcish and human cultures. See http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/143131-neandertals-dem-deres-orcs.html 88.190.223.227 (talk) 17:49, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Could Tolkien have lent the word Uruk-hai from the Uriankhai, an ethnic Mongolian group wherefrom also the Tuvans originate? --Rides (talk) 18:57, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can tell there is no evidence anywhere about where Tolkien got the name from. I've seen this etymology proposed even in academic papers, but nowhere does a citation lead back to Tolkien himself. It makes no more sense to say that the Uruk-hai were inspired by the Sumerian city of Uruk than to say Batman got his name from the eponymous city in the East of Turkey. The internal etymology, however, is obvious: Uruk is Black Speech for Sindarin Yrch. Solri (talk) 17:09, 2 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tortured elves as Uruk-hai[edit]

I think it is inappropriate to say that the movies implied that Saruman created Uruk-hai from tortured elves because in the scene where he is instructing Lurtz on their history, he was simply describing how orcs in general first came into being, while the Uruk-hai obviously evolved later through much cross-breeding with humans and through other dark arts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.4.90.225 (talk) 22:37, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Picture[edit]

I like the Ultramarine symbol on the shoulder in the bottomright corner of File:Uruk-hai statue.jpg, it's nice. But in all seriousness, is there another picture that can be used, one without a Warhammer 40k shoulder in it? Or at least can the image be cropped? - SudoGhost™ 01:47, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if I have the right term for the image caption, is it an Uruk-hai, or should it be an Uruk singular? Carl Sixsmith (talk) 06:20, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Orc is not the right term, it is goblin.[edit]

I personally think that if we are trying to keep to Tolkein lore we should use his note in the beginning of the hobbit and refer to Orcs as Goblins. Goblin is the English name for Orc.

"Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc" (From the author's note at the beginning of The Hobbit) 68.146.214.34 (talk) 06:30, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Uruk-hai are not in The Hobbit though, and throughout The Lord of the Rings they are referred to as Orcs. 06:49, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Uruk-hai do not change a thing about Goblins. And throughout lord of the rings it is referred to as either. 68.146.214.34 (talk) 07:24, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, there are a couple of references to 'goblin-men' but the vast majority of the work refer to them as Orcs. This article is about Uruk-hai, and I can't think of one reference in the books where that breed is referred to as Goblins. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 07:28, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
found some it seems goblin is reserved for the Hobbit's talk/view points..
There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men.
and
Upon a stake in the middle was set a great goblin head; upon its shattered helm the white badge could still be seen.
Goblin is actually the English translation in the Hobbit, while Orc is the Hobbit name. the last part of the quote that I left out is the part about sea creatures, which it means by "our orc" 68.146.214.34 (talk) 07:38, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) Orc does actually come from OE orkneas -- see Orc (Middle-earth). Tolkien clearly appropriated the word as Sindarin (plural yrch). Although he used "goblin" almost exclusively in The Hobbit, he wanted something less redolent of nursery tales for the darker sequel. Both I think are fair game, though for LOTR I think "orc" is usually more appropriate. -- Elphion (talk) 14:29, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm maybe Orc is used more often since it does mainly have to do with hobbits, and Tolkien just changed his writing style and viewpoint since The Hobbit. Maybe having a note beside Orc and saying it is actually "Goblin" in English but for the purposes of the article we will stick with Orc, since it is in the viewpoint of Hobbits. 68.146.214.34 (talk) 02:57, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, everyone in The Hobbit uses goblin, and most of time everyone in LOTR uses orc. It's not a vocabulary difference peculiar to hobbits or their viewpoint. I think Tolkien avoided orc in The Hobbit since he felt people would be confused by the modern English meaning of orc (which of course has now changed since the advent of LOTR), while in LOTR he decided the older word was more appropriate and felt that we could handle it. -- Elphion (talk) 14:30, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay guys. This has gone on long enough. I don't know why people don't realize that Uruk's are from Mordor and Uruk Hai are from Isengard. The "Hai" in Uruk Hai means a different and more upgraded form of Uruk.It says that Uruk's from Mordor were black in color, while the Uruk Hai from Orthanc were "ashy, and red in some parts". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.91.188.40 (talk) 09:18, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's cool. Alls you need to do is provide a reliable source that agrees with you and we can edit the article. GimliDotNet (talk) 10:02, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sunlight[edit]

So, Saruman's orcs can definitely abide the sunlight. But I don't think there is any primary-source evidence to support the idea that Sauron's orcs could do so. This absence of evidence (i.e. 89.243.26.239's admission that "the two sets of Uruks are not stated to be different") doesn't give us the freedom to assume that they are similar in that regard. The new stuff that has been added (e.g. "...features possibly shared with Sauron's Uruks." [emphasis mine]) is WP:OR, IMHO. Braincricket (talk) 06:58, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. The ability to withstand the sun surprises both Gimli and Aragorn, with the later 'knowing more of orcs and their ways than any other man' according to the author. GimliDotNet (Speak to me,Stuff I've done) 07:36, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Where is your evidence for that? Any quotes? The only other Uruks that Aragorn is said to have encountered are the "Black Uruks of Mordor" in Moria, which was probably in the darkness, so the sun light theory cannot be tested. There is simply NO evidence that Saruman was "making further changes" to his Uruks at all. They are simply shown to run under the sunlight and be larger than the normal Mordor Orcs, NOT super powered Uruks! This "making further changes" is original research and should be removed from this article untill evidence can be provided. Thus the logical thing to say is that the sunlight resistance of Saruman's Uruks was POSSIBLY shared with those of Sauron. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Transcendent28 (talk • contribs) 07:49, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your entire argument is based on 'probably' and 'possibly' the text of the Lord of the Rings makes clear that the lack of fear of the sun surprises everyone. This is the only evidence we have, therefore to claim the Uruks of Sauron are also unafraid of the sun (based on Aragorn 'probably' only having met them in the dark) is Original Research. The text supports that Saruman has enhanced Uruks and cross-bred orcs too. It is up to you to provide evidence that the Uruks of Mordor are the same and have the same traits. GimliDotNet (Speak to me,Stuff I've done) 07:56, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Rubbish mate. I think it is perfectly logical to say that the sunlight resistance was possibly shared with the Sauron Uruks. Where is your evidence that the Uruks of Saruman were enhanced? There isn't any. The description of the Isengarders only says they were of greater stature…this is open to interpretation, Greater stature than what? I would say it means the surrounding normal orcs of Mordor, NOT other Mordor Uruks which are not on the scene at the time. You jump to conclusions in saying that Saruman was making improvements to the Uruk breed using no evidence at all. Also “the lack of fear of the sun surprises everyone”? Where do you get this idea from? It is not clear at all that anyone finds this surprising, only that it is of a greater threat than standard orcs who can operate only at night. Please provide some hard evidence and stop your disruptive editing of my edits. Thankyou. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Transcendent28 (talk • contribs) 08:18, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Here's one from Treebeard

For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun, but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!

GimliDotNet (Speak to me,Stuff I've done) 08:29, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Treebeard may simply be ignorant of the Mordor Uruks' existence. After all the previous Uruks were not known to go about attacking the Ents. Treebeard is not some all knowing Orc expert. Tolkien has made it clear that he is not all wise. This shows no evidence at all to counter my point that it is an open question as to weather or not the Mordor Uruks could resist the sunlight as well. It is only Treebeard's speculation as to how the Uruks he has seen were made.— Preceding unsigned comment added by User talk:Transcendent28 (talk • contribs)
The problem you've got is you are speculating on text that does not exist. The treebeard quote is text in the book, it shows the surprise characters have at Saruman's uruks being able to withstand the sun. YOU are interpreting that Treebeard doesn't have knowledge about Mordor uruks, YOU are interpreting that Treebeard's comments are only speculation. That is the very definition of WP:OR GimliDotNet (Speak to me,Stuff I've done) 08:55, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) So, from the article: "These original Uruks were of Sauron's breeding; but Saruman bred his own, making further changes[1] such as resistance to sunlight[2] and more upright stature.[3]" It may be reasonable to assume that Sauron's orcs were resistant to sunlight, but as far as I know the text isn't clear on that. You said "I think it is perfectly logical to say that the sunlight resistance was possibly shared with the Sauron Uruks." Maybe I agree with you. But until it can be directly attributed to a reliable source, it's just another fan theory. Suitable for lotr.wikia.com but not here. It's all the first paragraph of WP:SYN. Braincricket (talk) 08:58, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Tolkien, J. R. R. (1994). The lord of the rings. Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co. p. 462. ISBN 0618129014.
  2. ^ Tolkien, J. R. R. (1994). The lord of the rings. Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co. p. 462. ISBN 0618129014.
  3. ^ Tolkien, J. R. R. (1994). The lord of the rings. Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co. p. 552. ISBN 0618129014.
Well ok I see your point, I have toned down the language I used and left it open to question as to weather or not these traits are shared with Sauron's Uruks. But I think the bit about Saruman "making further changes" to his specific Uruks has to be seen as a fan theory as well. Leaving it open to question is a good compromise on this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Transcendent28 (talk • contribs) 09:05, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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