Talk:Western Armenia/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

The cultural history has Armenians in the Ottoman Empire page

The page is explains the subregion in Eurasia, To prevent FORKing, let us add cultural information under History of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. This way we can find this information easily. Thanks for your cooperation.--OttomanReference 14:19, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Tags

This article should be moved to "Ottoman Armenia" per Ottoman Greece et al.. There is no such thing as "Western Armenia". Armenia's borders are defined in UN maps quite clearly, and any Western Armenia should refer to the Western provinces of the Republic of Armenia as shown on UN maps.. Baristarim 07:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

As a Western Armenian I object. Western Armenians have their own dialect, traditions and culture and these are not Ottoman. There might be some validity in saying that "Western Armenia" is currently under occupation as its former inhabitants were deported/escorted/slaughtered/lying-about-being-slaughtered and have been living as a diaspora since. It's similar to the occupation of Palestine in that way, except that there are hardly any Armenians living on those lands now. If there is an Eastern Armenia, there is a Western Armenia. Today's Republic of Armenia covers most of historic Eastern Armenia. Hakob 01:16, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

So we can have East Turkestan but not Western Armenia? Nice try. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 16:48, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about East Turkistan, ~~I remember it redirecting to Xinjang. It must have been recreated as a disambig.~~ Forget about my comments. I was thinking of Xinjang. However, it is a disambig all the same. This article is about a historic province of the Ottoman Empire. This article is just a reflection of an irredentist concept. The correct title should be "Ottoman Armenia" per "Ottoman Greece" et al. "History of Ottoman Bulgaria" et al. Well, Turks have also been living in those lands since 1071, so I am not quite following the other argument. Nobody is saying the word "Armenia" should be deleted, so don't jump the gun. However, Western Armenia is a political concept that is used even today. There is room for confusion. All the provinces articles for former empires follow a similar format. Like "British India. That's all. Baristarim 19:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Here are tons and tons of sources for you. [1].--Eupator 20:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Western Armenia is a political concept: If Baristarim explains what he/she wanted to say by "political", that would help us. There was no Armenian vilayet under Ottoman Empire. If "Armenian vilayet" was what he wanted to say. Armenians lived all over the Ottoman Empire, the highest amount (not ratio) was in Constantinople, surely it is not claimed by Armenians. Even today you can find Armenians under Bulgaria, Greece, etc. The political coverage of the concept was claimed in this article as; (the vilayets of Erzurum, Van, Bitlis,

Diyarbekir, Kharput, and Sivas). The extend to six vilayets can be argued, however I'm fine with a note that, with a citation, these vilayets were claimed by the Armenian sources. Summary: I thought this article was a "historical subregion in Eurasia". Key terms: Historical (Ottoman Empire does not exist anymore). subregion (a geological concept) Eurasia (located between Europe and Asia). (PS:"tons and tons of sources" If Eupator looks at them, she/he can certainly recognize that there is not a definite construct among them. Some use for region, some use for political, some use for a nation. It is like a Joker in Poker). --OttomanReference 21:24, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

East Turkestan is as much a political concept as this is. If that stays, this does. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 06:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC)Western Armenia Government in Exile (Russian: Правительство Западной Армении в изганнии, Turkish: Batı Ermenistan Sürgün hükûmeti) is an organization seeking sovereignty over the territory of Western Armenia, proclaimed by the National Council of Armenians of Western Armenia. It has a Constitution, a flag, a coat of arms, an anthem and a legislative body.

Content: 1 Story: 1.1 New period 1.2 Establishment 1.3 The key provision of the Declaration 2 Executive power of Western Armenia 3 Strong facts 3.1 Political meetings 3.2 Television discussions 4 Galleries 5 See also! 6 External links 7 Written sources Notes: History:

Leonid Azgaldyan Sources: On May 24, 1860, the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople adopted a Constitution for the administrative territory called Armenia, Armenia of the Turkish Nizamnameli nation. On March 17, 1863, the Ottoman government ratified the Constitution, reducing the number of articles and the number of deputies representing the provinces. In 1912, the Armenian Catholicos George V appealed to the Russian government to carry out reforms in Western Armenia, ending the function of the national delegation by authorizing Poghos Nubar Pasha. In 1913 the work of the reform commission took place ․ In 1915, the Armenian Catholicos George V addressed the superpowers. In 1915, the administration of Western Armenia was formed. Led by Manukyan in the center of Van. On May 22, 1916, Lieutenant General Nzhnzh Peshkov became the first Governor-General of the regions of Western Armenia. On June 21, 1916, Nicholas II approved the "Provisional Regulations for the Administration of the Territories of Occupied Turkey". The Administration of Military Commanders (RRM) was established in the territories of Western Armenia, headed by Lieutenant-General NZHNJ Peshkov, consisting of 29 military-administrative districts (military-administrative districts). By order of April 26, 1917, Western Armenia was removed from military rule and placed under the control of the Provisional Government. On May 31, 1917, the first military commander of Western Armenia, Lieutenant-General Nzhnzh Peshkov, was released from service and retired. In 1943-1947, the Armenian-Armenians living abroad adopted the idea of "unity of national forces." All the national councils were guided by the slogan "Armenians for Armenians". 1943 Since October 8, 2006, members of the Armenian Democratic Liberal Party in the United States, the Armenian Progressive League of America, have been working to unite Armenian organizations operating abroad. During the Artsakh Liberation War, the hero of the Artsakh war, the commander of the "Independence Army" Leonid Azgaldyan once again raised the idea of forming a government in exile in Western Armenia.

New district The idea of forming a government in exile in Western Armenia has been raised many times since 1948, but the idea of establishing a government in exile in Western Armenia became a topic of real Armenian public discourse only in the early 2000s, when Armenia, Russia, the United States and Europe To form groups and organizations with ambitions to form a government for the deportation of Western Armenians.

Armenia: After the end of the Artsakh war, in 2004 a number of freedom fighters, descendants of Western Armenians, founded the National Council of Armenians of Western Armenia in Shushi, which aims to repatriate Armenians to Western Armenia, recognize the Armenian Genocide, and provide territorial and moral compensation by the Republic of Turkey. Since 2007, Armenak Abrahamyan, a participant in the Artsakh Liberation War, has been the chairman of the National Council of Armenians of Western Armenia.

USA In 2005 in the United States of America Sosikyan founded the Committee for the Defense of Western Armenia.

In 2015, the Constitutional Arbitration Court of Western Armenia and the Academy of Western Armenia were established in the United States, with Surik Ghazaryan as its founder. The facilities are registered at the UN Headquarters.

Russian Federation (RF) Karen Mikaelyan was one of the figures in charge of establishing the government of exile in Western Armenia in the Russian Federation. The idea was realized only in 2013-2016, when the National Assembly of Western Armenians was formed in France, and General Norat Ter-Grigoryants, living in Russia, was elected its chairman. In 2017, he separated from the National Assembly of Armenian Armenians, created his own structure. Saradaryan (Switzerland) [4]. In Russia, the idea of Western Armenia was first spread by David Balyan's Isisapayl online site.

Establishment: The National Council of Western Armenia

redirect

Ottoman Armenia redirects to Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, and Ottoman Armenia is the same with Western Armenia according to the article. Probably this one should redirect there then as well, or Ottoman Armenia should redirect here. deniz^T_C 02:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Apparently the content of this article is wrong. Whatever we have here should be merged with Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. Western Armenia is the notion used by contemporary Armenians for the eastern part of Turkey. It has some politicality. If we have some sources dealing with this 'phenomenon', then the article should stay and rewritten according to those sources. Deniz^T_C 23:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Western Armenia is a popular term and should stay, with sources it would be more accurate. --Vonones 23:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

How is it used? Deniz^T_C 00:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

It is used linguistically and used to refer Turkish Armenia. As in Western & Armenian language, also see East Turkestan --Vonones 00:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The article does not reflect that. Now, either we should rewrite it along the lines of the current usage (of course if it noteworthy, we don't have an extra article on how Turks refer to Yerevan or Mousul) or it should be redirected. Deniz^T_C 04:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

No it is used by Armenians and scholars to describe the East and West territories. The language is even different and it is stated in the article, "The distinct Western Armenian dialect of the Armenian language is spoken primarily in Turkey, the Levant and in the Armenian diaspora." --Vonones 22:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the article should remain Western Armenia. It is a widely used term that has over 20 000 google hits if we exclude Wikipedia related pages and also has interwiki articles on it that deal with the term. The article might just need a rewrite as it is still a stub and obviously needs more work on it. - Fedayee 04:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Western Armenian language/dialect exists, but this is not the article about that, I think. A google search [2] suggests that it is a notion used by Armenian diaspora/Armenian websites for Eastern Anatolia. If we have sources dealing with this 'phenomenon', like I said above, we can have a separate article, otherwise it should be redirected to the historical one or to the current one. Deniz^T_C 11:21, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Western Armenia is a perfectly legitimate article location, along the lines of Aegean Macedonia, Chameria, East Turkestan, etc. Such articles are fine as long as they are descriptive of actual use by various groups in the real world. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 11:32, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Kekrops on this one. Seems to be a legitimate article. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

It's a miracle. He finally agrees with me on something. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 11:41, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering how best to express that sentiment, and ended up lost for words. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

First Fedayee you just added OR. Eg. why would Armenian SSR need to sign it? Please don't resort to OR. Now back to the issue, which apparently I could not make clear. Western Armenia is not what we have on the main page. Western Armenia is Eastern Anatolia according to the Armenians, isn't it? When those Armenian sites refer to the region as Western Armenia, do they think about treaties, territories captured by the Russians in 19th century and lost, etc. etc.? Do they think that it is just Armenian territory under occupation? What is the usage today? The article should focus heavily on that, if it should exist as a separate article.

If the title of an article is Gay, then then the main focus should be homosexuality, not happiness (though happiness could be mentioned). If the article title is tyrant, it should be about 'evil rulers', one can make a passage of its usage in ancient Greece. If the title is Western Armenia, we have to choose one out of several options (but need to fix one depending one which one is the correct one, a passing mention to the others is welcome), or make a disambig page for each one (I am not asserting that the following is an exhaustive list, they are just the ones I could come up with):

1) It might be the historical one. The info appears in its would-be redirected to page, so it would be unnecessary to have a separate article, just a redirect.

2) It might the the current one used by diaspora that I tried to mention above after making some google searches.

3) it might be western Armenia (note the small w), just a geographic placement, which wouldn't be notable enough, even if the only source we have is possibly about it.

4) it might be places where Western Armenian language/dialect is used, which would be too vague, and it is enough to list such info in the language article (no question about the notability of Western Armenian language). So what is it, will it be anything goes anytime we want it?

When writing this article, we should consider what a wiki reader would/should expect to see when s/he chooses to visit this article. We should think about the current usage of the term. Certainly wiki-rules should be met like WP:NPOV, V, NOR, etc.

Just in case I could still not make it clear, let me tell you that the dispute is about the content of the article, not about its existence, this is not an AFD. Thanks for reading Deniz^T_C 21:13, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The first response to this was Dbachmann's merger request (which is a month old). So any other responses? This article currently does not have the correct title or correct content, as it cannot be this that the other and the other one, oh this one, as well, all at the same time, unless it is a disambiguation page. Is it a disambiguation page? Deniz^T_C 18:39, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

An alternate suggestion might be moving this to Ottoman Armenia (#1 above), as the current usage of the term 'Western Armenia' is #2 above. But Ottoman Armenia is and should be redirected to Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, which basically contains all the information here (except language, which has its own article). Deniz^T_C 19:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Western Armenia is not just "Ottoman Armenia", it can be (and is) used to describe historically Armenian regions in the present-day Turkish Republic. The problem redirect is the "Ottoman Armenia" one, since clearly not all Armenians in the Ottoman Empire lived in an (however vagely defined) region called "Ottoman Armenia". Merging the "Western Armenia" entry with "Armenians in the Ottoman Empire" would make the situation worse rather than better. Meowy 17:26, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Armenians in the Ottoman Empire is a demographical topic, while Western Armenia is a historical, political and geographical term. They are very different! And the Western Armenia exists since 387 when there werent an Ottoman Empire. Andranikpasha 00:37, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Owned XD--Alecxo (talk) 01:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Britannica and more..

I would like to point that Encyclopaedia Britannica, that is mentioned here as a source, like the "systematic killings/deportation of Armenians" has its own sources, listed in the http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-129457/Armenia page.

As one can see, most of the sources itself are from Armenian origin, which could potentially lead to POV. (The article also mentions sacrileges like "Armenians were greatly disadvantaged after they passed from the Byantine rule to the Ottoman" which is as we all know false, at least since they were considered heretics and pariahs under Byzantium)

Now also, when talking about Western Armenians living under the Ottoman Empire, more than their "systematic killings" or "deportations" etc. that could have taken place, can we also talk about their daily life, their successes, their trade, their advancement etc. as this was more common of them. I am sure our fellow Armenian Colleagues will have a lot to say on these as we are not experts on the subject. --Eae1983 (talk) 22:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

its funny to hear that Britannica is pro-Armenian... In Byzantium Armenians have good positions, even a number of Imperators, noone massacred them, while the Genocide of Western Armenians is a recognized fact if even to not cite Britannica, and because of Ottoman Turkish policy Western Armenia commonly emptied from its aborigen Armenian population. Where is the "common successes"? Are you going to write also about the everyday life, "succeses" of Jews and Gypsies in Nazi Germany? And Western Armenia is rather a political, geographical and historical term, people's everyday lafe is better to include in an article dedicated to the Armenians in Ottoman Turkey, which is an article about the people, demographics and their life. Andranikpasha (talk) 10:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Names

Takabeg (talk) 01:06, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Highly doubt the validity of the map

Its highly unlikely that after 600 years of Turkish prescence that Armenians were a majority in what the map claims. İf your unable to provide neatral sources then remove them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.245.148.12 (talk) 10:16, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

"Greater Armenia"

And I would argue that "Western Armenia" is not the same as "Turkish Armenia". The "six vilayets" are part of "Turkish Armenia", but "Western Armenia" does not cover such a large area simce it refers to areas that were historically part of Armenia proper, not areas that had, by the late Ottoman Empire period, become areas with large and long-established Armenian populations. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:58, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

There are no references for the Demographics charts

Please add a "neutral" reference (i.e. not Armeniapedia, etc) for the charts. According to the official Ottoman Census of 1914, the Armenians were a minority in eastern Anatolia. Pantepoptes (talk) 08:59, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The Turks migrated en masse to Anatolia after the battle of Malazgirt in 1071. Under Seljuk rule many christians would leave the area and cause the Turks to form a majority already, let alone in the 17th century. The map should be removed. And as a matter of fact, perhaps information about Turks taking control of the area after 1071 should be added. --80.114.182.240 (talk) 11:53, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Naming

This region is named as Ottoman Armenia, even under Treaty of Sèvres. The content should be developed under Ottoman Armenia, not Western Armenia.--OttomanReference 16:41, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Wrong. Yerazhishda (talk) 04:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC) It is referred to as Western Armenia in various sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.214.179.29 (talk) 08:23, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Name a source more reliable than the Treaty of Sèvres. --80.114.182.240 (talk) 11:43, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

If you think that the content should be developed under "Ottoman Armenia," kindly remind the readers that Turks themselves, after they forcibly annexed historic Armenia to the Ottoman empire, referred to these territories as "Ermenistan" (Armenia) and "Ermeni Velayeti" (Armenian provinces). Please don't forget that from 1880 onward the toponym “Ermenistan” was gradually--and deliberately--replaced with the invented toponym “Eastern Anatolia,” stemming from the Greek word Anatolé (“East”) that essentially means “Eastern East,” which, in and of itself, is a logically invalid tautology.--71.191.2.57 (talk) 19:42, 14 September 2016 (UTC)Davidian

impartiality?

"Armenian presence in the area largely ended and their cultural heritage was systematically destroyed by Turkey, considered an example of cultural genocide." This sentence is written from the point of view of the armenians. This is not a forum. You have to be impartial! Do you know that the Armenian genocide (!) was in the period of the ottoman empire? Turkey is not responsible for this! Wikipedia is not a forum. You can not write your hatred against the Turks! I demand that the sentence be deleted. Ahmet7007 (talk) 09:46, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

And from the Turkish point of view, ethnonyms, such as “Armenians” and “Ottoman Empire”, are taught in schools to be written in plain letters? The sentence reflects the point of view which is adopted officially by 30 parliaments of the world, most recently by Vatican and Germany, Ottoman Turkey’s chief ally during the WWI and the years of the Armenian genocide, as well as by scores of local parliaments, governments, US states, scholars’ associations, Nobel Prize laureates, prevailing majority of historians, genocide scholars, and intellectuals. And, for your information, Turkey is responsible for wiping out a whole nation and stealing its ancestral lands and property, because Turkey is a legal successor of the Ottoman Empire. And, what Turks expect from Armenians and all people of good will to feel except for hatred? Do you, Turks, really expect that you could mass murder men, women, children, and the elders, rape, mutilate, forcibly deport, forcibly convert to Islam, bury and burn Armenians alive, steal their lands, appropriate their properties and money, and receive love in return?71.191.4.143 (talk) 19:00, 4 April 2017 (UTC)Davidian

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Western Armenia. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Corrected formatting/usage for http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-S_I7EHa8sjQ/UXeXMdiCTuI/AAAAAAAASX4/ojPaKj-rogE/s1600/102.jpg
Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150408085214/http://armeniangenocide100.org/en/ to http://armeniangenocide100.org/en

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 02:52, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Image

What does image Armenian population distribution including even small coastal town of Silifke have to do with this article? I check source is Yerevan government but can not read Armenian. If this area is claimed by Yerevan to be Western Armenia then image is relevant but caption can be modified. If it is unexplained historical population distribution, there were many Armenians living in Constantinople, but we can not invent without explicit statement from government that historical population distribution means position of Yerevan government is that this entire area is Western Armenia. Agamede (talk) 14:44, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

No mention of Kurdish people

According to this article, Kurdish people must be invisible extra terrestrial nation. As if they don't exist. Get real. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.254.2 (talk) 01:14, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Flag?

I'm seeing this "Western Armenian flag" popping in and out of existence on this article. What exactly is this flag? I don't know its legitimacy, but it seems to be used by the Western Armenia national football team in the CONIFA World Football Cup and the CONIFA European Football Cup and there seems to be a declaration about it (you can find it easily by searching Google). I don't agree with the use of an invented flag at all (there is no "Western Armenian" or "Eastern Armenian" – there is "Armenian" and the tricolour is their flag). But perhaps it's gaining popularity much like the Assyrian flag in a regional context? — [ kentronhayastan ] 04:25, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Armenian highland?

Why is this a separate article from Armenian highlands? Seraphim System ^(talk) 23:01, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

@Seraphim System:, because this is a political concept, not a geographical area. Beshogur (talk) 22:55, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

It must be named as Historical Western Armenia or something like this

Its too sided and like there seems to be an open topic for discussion but actually there isn't open topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tarik289 (talk • contribs) 23:49, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Irredentist term

It should definitely be mentioned in the first sentence. first like all other irredentist articles it's not in line with Wikipedia policies otherwise. --Recentcontributorsedits (talk) 17:39, 22 July 2022 (UTC) <--- blocked sock of User:Beyoglou

Well, it's actually right since the term "Western Armenia" is pretty much fitting to the usage of the term irredentism. BerkBerk⁶⁸ 17:31, 10 August 2022 (UTC)