Template talk:Did you know/Cuno strikes

Cuno strikes[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Panyd^{The muffin is not subtle}

~~... that the Cuno strikes in 1923 led to the fall of the German government and an attempted Communist coup?~~

Reviewed: Edward Hay Mackenzie Elliot

Created by Marrante (talk). Self nom at 15:36, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please add a comment and signature (or just a signature if endorsing) after each aspect you have reviewed:
Hook

Length, format, content rules: --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:20, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Source: The hook is not supported with the text of the article. On the contrary, the article says: "The attempted coup that was cancelled at the last minute." If the attempted coup was cancelled then it was not attempted but planned? If instead of the attempted coup there was Hamburg Uprising, why would it be named as attempted Communist coup? The article Hamburg Uprising does not even contain a word coup. Also, the text of the article does not support directly that strikes led to the fall of the German government, it just says that German government resigned a day after strike begun. The source does imply that strike helped the fall of the Cuno government but as the first reason for fall of the government mentioned in the source is "Nach einem Mißtrauensvotum der Sozialdemokratischen Partei Deutschlands (SPD) im Reichstag wegen des Scheiterns der Politik des "passiven Widerstands". (SPD voted in the parliament for "no confidence" in the government. Also, the text of the article does not support the statement that Cuno strikes led to the Hamburg uprising which was in fact result of the activities of "the Soviet Politburo" which adopted a plan for a "German October". If there are no other sources which support the text of the hook, it may be considered as result of the WP:SYNTH and the text of the hook should be changed. --Antidiskriminator (talk)

09:04, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Interest: --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:30, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Image suitability, if applicable:
ALT hooks, if proposed:
ALT1:... that the Cuno strikes on August 11, 1923 helped to force the resignation of the German chancellor and his entire cabinet on August 12 and inspired the Communist Party to plan a coup?

Article

Length: --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:41, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Vintage: --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:36, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sourcing (V, RS, BLP): --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:30, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Neutrality: --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:30, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Plagiarism/close paraphrasing: --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:30, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Copyvio: --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:30, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Obvious faults in prose, structure, formatting:

Comments/discussion: The article is new, created three days before nomination for DYK. The length of the hook is ok (102 characters). The lenght of the article is also ok (more than 4,000 characters). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:41, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The story is somewhat complicated, as was the entire nation of Germany in 1923. The planned coup was cancelled, but the people in Hamburg went ahead. The reasons why are somewhat in dispute, but are either that they ignored the message or never got it, so for that reason, the planned coup was both cancelled and attempted. My understanding of the Cuno strikes changed somewhat as I went back to the Hamburg Uprising. My hooks have tended to be very complicated and long and I have been trying to change that. I did not mean to imply that the Cuno strikes were the exclusive cause of the government's collapse, but at the time I wrote the hook, I may have sacrificed too many details in the interest of brevity. I will look over both articles and will write one or more alternate hooks. Marrante (talk) 11:03, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As I read over your comment that the strikes had nothing to do with the coup attempt, that is too supported. From the article (minus refs), Though the crisis was resolved within the framework of the parliamentary system, the Cuno strikes nurtured a hope in Moscow and within the executive committee of the Comintern that there was a possibility for revolution in Germany and on August 23, 1923, the Soviet Politburo adopted a plan for a "German October". The strikes convinced the Communists that the timing was right to try to repeat the Russian October revolution in Germany, but it was cancelled at the last minute. But this came after the resignations of Chancellor Cuno and his entire cabinet, which took place the day after the strikes. There was a definite causal relationship and I will look for more sources. Marrante (talk) 11:14, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have worked on the article and improved its clarity. Thank you for sparking that. I found a reference that clearly states the strikes were the dominant factor in forcing the Cuno government to resign (the source says, "after the wildcat strike had swept Cuno away"), so the first hook should be okay now. The idea was to surmount insurrections all over the country, but because of the cancellation, KPD groups in other cities did not follow through, leaving the Hamburg Uprising as the only remaining part of a larger attempted coup. If you need me to explain this better in the article, let me know. Marrante (talk) 13:12, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

First of all I want to say that I enjoyed reading this article which captured my attention and well explained the event. I am grateful to you because you wrote this article and allowed me a pleasure to read it and review the hook. I am aware that situation was complicated but you managed to simplify it so any interested reader can understand it. I am sure that it takes a lot of knowledge about the topic in question to do it.

I am glad that you resolved the government resignation issue. But there is still a coup attempt issue. I think that our disagreement has roots in different understanding of two basic terms attempt and coup. I did not write that strikes had nothing to do with the coup attempt. I explained that there was no coup attempt. The coup was never attempted, it was only planned. Events in Hamburg were not communist coup attempt and the article about them does not even mention the word coup. The name of the article is Hamburg uprising. You used pipedlink when you referred to Hamburg Uprising as attempt of communist coup. That is against the rules on wikipedia. When you think about alternative hooks, please have in mind that hook has to be mentioned in the article and directly (without WP:SYNTH) supported with the sources. That means that if strikes led to nurturing hopes of Moscow to perform communist coup which led to plans for attempt which led to possible failure to inform Hamburg communist about the cancellation of plans... it would be wrong to perform synthesis and state that strikes led to events in Hamburg. Maybe it is better to remove link with hamburg events? Or, instead to attempt to link those strikes with coup attempt to focus on one thing that is directly connected with strikes. There were 3,5 million workers participated in the strike and several dozens were killed by the police. I think you did not mention dozens of killed workers in this article and that is very important and very hooky.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:20, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I see what you're saying now. I'm not certain I agree, and actually was initially only going to mention the fall of the Cuno government, but as an afterthought, added the coup for extra punch. I have struck the first hook, amended ALT1 (attempt > plan) and will amend the article to reflect the deaths caused. That was an oversight to have left that out. I will also come back and propose another hook after I've taken care of the article. Marrante (talk) 14:41, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I realized after looking around for refs that when I wrote before, I was thinking about deaths from other events, like the uprisings in the Ruhrgebiet and in Hamburg. I have googled both using English and German words and am not coming up with any mention whatsoever of deaths. If you have something, could you pass it along? If you don't have anything either, then I think the ALT1 hook is fine, or perhaps there should be an ALT2 that just mentions the fall of the Cuno government. Marrante (talk) 15:12, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But the next day a conference of factory councils, hastily convened by the KPD, took the initiative and announced a general strike. Three-and-a-half million workers participated. In several cities there were battles with the police with several dozen workers killed. The following day the Cuno government resigned.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:41, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Alt1 is fine by me now.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:45, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You can tell I'm rushed that I didn't come up with that on my own. I will amend the article. Thanks for your help. Marrante (talk) 16:21, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for writing this article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:24, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome and thank you for saying so (twice), as well as for your compliment earlier. Marrante (talk) 16:34, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]