User talk:The Banner

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I try to the best of my knowledge and belief to contribute to the small red block of the image

Advice on tackling MEDRS stranglehold you speak of[edit]

Hey Banner! I noticed you spoke out against an editor getting topic banned and wanted to see if I could get your input on something. A few of us have been posting on The Countering systemic bias page, on countering systemic bias in Eastern medicine topics. Ultimately, we know MEDRS is a guideline and not a policy, such as NPOV, and with that in mind we feel there are many "reliable sources" which are biased once you delve deep enough into them. It's a complex topic, and if you're interested you can absolutely take a gander. But I was curious if you had any advice as to how we might proceed, given that an editor was just topic banned there for what seems to be petty crimes. I've been watching the acupuncture talk page and it doesn't seem like many editors would have a welcoming response to our argument. In your judgement, is there a better way of proceeding in our quest to rid those topics from the MEDRS stranglehold of which you speak? LesVegas (talk) 13:39, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

It will be a Herculean task because you have to break the power not only of the MEDRS-guys but in fact of the Big Money medical and pharmaceutical industry that monopolizes health. And the classic credo applies here: who pays the piper, calls the tune. At the moment, I have no clue how to break that stranglehold. Just keep poking, keep arguing, keep asking difficult question, drive them nuts, keep adding reliable sources. One the day Big Money will fall apart, but it can take many years... The Banner talk 16:51, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Thank you Banner! I guess I'll just press on, but now with more gusto! I'm always glad to find kindred spirits, so if you ever need my help with anything please let me know! LesVegas (talk) 23:41, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
You wrote: "...there are many "reliable sources" which are biased once you delve deep enough into them." Of course there are, and that is no reason not to use them. Pretty much all sources have biases, and there is no policy here which forbids using biased sources. Wikipedia would be very small and totally boring if we only used "unbiased" sources, because there aren't many of them. We would also totally fail our goal, which is to document the sum total of human knowledge, and that includes biases. -- Brangifer (talk) 04:19, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
The creepy thing is that MEDRS itself is systematically biased. That would not be much of a problem when they kept themselves to medical articles. But they have extended their control to every article that makes health claims, including chemical analyse. They absolutely fail to see that for instance organic milk and organic farming have far more to do with agriculture than with the medical world. They systematically reject agricultural sources for every positive thing about organic with the excuses that it is not described in their sources. That is not so strange, as it is another field of knowledge. Even agricultural universities are not reliable enough to judge about organic farming... The Banner talk 04:29, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean about it being "systematically biased". You say that as if being biased is always a bad thing, but it's not. Proper biases are essential to avoid false balance. One should lean more one way than the other in life, and one should always follow the (quality) evidence, even when that means one must start leaning the other way, IOW changing positions is important when its necessary to do so.
Keep in mind that MEDRS does not control all information in an article, only the health claims, regardless of the type of article. Even health and science articles will contain information which is not controlled by MEDRS. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:31, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
In that case, you should review the use of the MEDRS argument on Organic milk and Organic farming. Almost every positive statement is blocked because it is not published in MEDRS sources, even non-health claims as a chemical analyse. Agricultural sources, even when coming from well known universities, are systematically blocked out. The Banner talk 08:45, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

@The Banner..difficult questions? bring 'em on...reliable sources? sure...but "poking" and "driving them nuts" thanks. cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:33, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

When necessary to break the stranglehold, yes. The Banner talk 08:45, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

"you have to break the power... of the MEDRS-guys." lol, if I wanted power, I would have become an administrator. Axl ¤ [Talk] 07:11, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

It looks you guys are worried after all, seeing the way you guys are showing up here. The Banner talk 08:45, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia sometimes relies on you applying the paranoid principle, seeing as otherwise decisions can be made without you even getting to know about them. I'm here because I get scared by the obvious lack of understanding of what evidence-based medical knowledge is.
Your examples on organic farming illustrate a perfect point: just because you presume it is healthier does not mean eating organic will lead to health benefits. We need to report true pure evidence, not inference by lay persons. Biology is messy, and holds very poorly to reasoning. It might give you an idea of what to study as a researcher or professional, but it shouldn't and can't be used to give health advice. I suggest you go read User:Jytdog/Why MEDRS? -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 09:40, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I do not presume it is healthier, as you claimed. I said that it is nonsense to use medical sources on a agricultural subject. The Banner talk 11:36, 24 July 2014 (UTC) P.S. I love the panic... Face-smile.svg
I'm new to this debate, however there seems to be a pattern. Every time MEDRS is questioned there's a "hit squad" including BullRangifer/Brangifer (the ring leader? tenacious as a pit bulldog), QuackGuru (foot soldier, attack dog), Jmh649/Doc James(admin/doctor "the reputable one"), MrBill3 (admin/watchdog/prosecutor) and others hone in an any and all debates and quickly form a false consensus regarding this debate. If a user who pushes this issue too far this group begins to threaten that user with blocks and bans. This is not how Wikipedia is supposed to work, is it? (talk) 12:56, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
This IP user from UK apparently has no problems logging out and making unambiguous threats to try to shut down the conversation.[1] (talk) 13:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

What makes you think that the IP user has a user account to log out of? Paranoia, just like your fanciful hit squad alluded to above. (talk) 23:50, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

My english not saw good pls forgive myself. as long as the rule says person need not do log in preceding while type into wikiedia so for cna person write english on website, is that verified? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 03:54, 27 July 2014 (UTC)


I thought you promised to bugger off and stay away form anything I edit?? At it again. The editor is quite happy to edit in stages without feeling rushed to fill in loads of red links and I thought it had a better chance of being kept if we gradually control the red links as he begins them.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:33, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

You hamper his efforts needlessly. Have a bit consideration with him. The Banner talk 12:37, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I saw this while dealing with Technophant socking issue. Navigation boxes are just that: navigation boxes, full of places to click to take the reader to articles. They are not lists of things. Redlinks in navboxes are completely inappropriate.—Kww(talk) 20:05, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
He is filling the links in a good pace. Nobody is ever hurt by a bit compassion and giving someone a bit of time. The Banner talk 20:13, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Nobody is ever hurt by comment markers, either. "Compassion" is only a factor in your own mind.—Kww(talk) 21:44, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, Kww, you got an undeserved blow. I had just learned of somebodies death... The Banner talk 22:36, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Trying to update page - Edward Nathan Sonnenbergs[edit]

I was worried some of what I added might come across as sounding like promo, so I referenced as much as possible. I was hoping for help, not just deleting what was done. I used the Webber Wenzel page as a template, so is that page also problematic? Thank you for your help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 12:50, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

To start with, every thing should be sourced by reliable independent sources. (See: Reliable sources) Using the company website is not okay. It is also not necessary to name every customer as that is highly promotional and often seen as a trick to get links to as many companies as possible. The Banner talk 13:02, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the response. You may have noticed I did to use as many references as possible that were not from their website. Unfortunately, Some data could only be found there. Just curious though, why is the page that I used as a template fine, but my efforts, which seemed similar, not?
Do you mind if I update again, will see if I can minimize use of their website any more.
I honestly did not know about the "clients as a trick to get links" thing, that was not my intention, I will keep the number of clients the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:24, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Reply to your Articles for Creation Help Desk question[edit]

AFC-Logo.svg Hello, The Banner! I'm Timtrent. I have replied to your question about a submission at the WikiProject Articles for Creation Help Desk. Fiddle Faddle 17:22, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Poor translations[edit]

Regarding the AfD of 10th (Magdeburg) Hussars, I thought you would have known about WP:Pages needing translation into English, and that the second part of that page is poorly translated pages? I'll work on the Hussars article if I have time, but meanwhile have templated it and reported it there; please, if you find another very bad translation, do that so that those of us who work there are aware of it. Yngvadottir (talk) 04:12, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

No, I did not know part two. The Banner talk 09:36, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Books and Bytes - Issue 7[edit]

Wikipedia Library owl.svg The Wikipedia Library


Books & Bytes
Issue 7, June-July 2014
by The Interior (talk · contribs), Ocaasi (talk · contribs), Sadads (talk · contribs)

  • Seven new donations, two expanded partnerships
  • TWL's Final Report up, read the summary
  • Adventures in Las Vegas, WikiConference USA, and updates from TWL coordinators
  • Spotlight: Blog post on BNA's impact on one editor's research

Read the full newsletter

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:20, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

The Signpost: 30 July 2014[edit]

No, I don't have to fix every template on a page I edit[edit]


Sorry, your message is simply wrong. Me including a (widely used) template does not create an obligation for me to fix all the DABs and redirects in that template.

If this isn't obvious to you, then please find the rule that supports your theory.

WikiCleaner is a good tool but a poor master. Gronky (talk) 11:10, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Then I guess you also refused to clean up your own room as kid because there was no law giving your mother the right to demand that of you...
But it is quite common to clean up the mess you create. Not a law or policy, but just out of courtesy and cooperation. The Banner talk 11:15, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
But I didn't create this mess. Why don't you talk to the contributors of that template? Or the contributors to the hundreds of other articles which include it? Or how about fixing it yourself if you think it's such a priority?
I clean up tonnes of stuff on Wikipedia. I fix syntax and when I sometimes find whole articles written in HTML I take the time to convert the whole thing to Wikipedia markup. I don't expect thanks for it, but I also don't expect accusations of making a mess based on someone relaying, without checking, the output of an automated tool with low intelligence.
(P.S. although it doesn't fit into the tone of our exchange, I'd just mention that Clare is indeed an absolutely lovely place. I went camping there as a kid and loved fishing during the day and the traditional music at night.)Gronky (talk) 11:39, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
It is a positive twist, as we can avoid a bitter dispute now. Is it unpolite to ask in what region you stayed? As you have seen, I live on top of the Willie Clancy Summer School. The Banner talk 12:14, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Doolin, up in the north of Clare. A whole week of pier-fishing and music. Most days we caught nothing but it was still fun somehow. I think we went in to Lisdoonvarna one or two nights. I hope tablet computers don't leave the next generation unable to appreciate that sort of thing. Gronky (talk) 12:49, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that is a nice area. Another centre of traditional music. They are working now to extent the pier to improve traffic with the Aran Islands and commercial traffic. Perhaps an idea to start looking for your rod so you have it ready for a visit next year. But Doolin is changed... The Banner talk 13:12, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Yeh, everything is changing. I think if the majority of the tourists are in tents and caravans, rather than hotels, then it's still close enough to "my" Doolin. If not, then I'd have to look for a different spot in Clare or Kerry. I don't like being on the Aran Islands er is een kloof tussen de touristen en de bewoners. Ik voel me daar niet thuis, en dat is een onaangenaam gevoel in je eigen land te hebben. Ik zeg niet waar ik nu woon omdat mijn anonymiteit is me zeer kostbaar. Maar ja, nice to have met you. Gronky (talk) 14:07, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Input at FAC[edit]

Hello. I believe we haven't met before, but there's first time for everything. Since you've been on Wikipedia for quite some time, I was wondering if you can conduct a review on Thirteen, an FA candidate of a friend of mine? You can leave comments at the review page. Appreciate your time.--Retrohead (talk) 10:44, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Just a short look because I don't like that style of music...
  1. What is the relevance of the release date 1 November, except that two albums were released on that date?
  2. Why is it mentioned twice that Andy Sneap was not available as producer?
I leave it with that, as I have no emotional connection or knowledge of that style of music. Sorry. The Banner talk 11:54, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Template:Mawazine xxxx setlists[edit]

No I'm not going to help you get around it by nominating 5 templates. You need to find someone who has had nothing whatsoever to do with any of this and ask for their opinion. CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 11:33, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

For starters, it is just one template... The Banner talk 11:46, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Go back and check again. Template:Mawazine 2009 setlists, Template:Mawazine 2011 setlists, Template:Mawazine 2012 setlists, Template:Mawazine 2013 setlists and Template:Mawazine 2014 setlists are all one off templates used on that page and no other. CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 12:01, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
And I just limited myself to the one found at "Templates with disambiguation links"... The Banner talk 12:07, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

The Signpost: 06 August 2014[edit]

Disambiguation links to List of Ole Miss Rebels in the NFL Draft[edit]

Hi The Banner,

I've finished. Robert4565 (talk) 23:04, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. At the last count we still had 205,881 links to disambiguation pages to solve (lowest score ever was 204,346 in June) but we started with nearly a million. So every link solved is a benefit. The Banner talk 23:12, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Disambiguation Barnstar Small.png The Disambiguator's Barnstar
The Disambiguator's Barnstar is awarded to Wikipedians who are prolific disambiguators.
Thank You for all the work you have done to repair and monitor pages with disambiguation links. It is much appreciated! Robert4565 (talk) 23:04, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Thank you very much. I really appreciate this. The Banner talk 23:12, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

UK Politics[edit]

I'm working on it. Don't worry --Jack Cox (talk) 00:19, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

The Signpost: 13 August 2014[edit]

Please comment on Talk:ISO 8601[edit]

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:ISO 8601. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:01, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Original Barnstar Hires.png The Original Barnstar
Dear User "The Banner",

I really appreciate your work on Michelin star restaurants in the Netherlands. It is a superb source of data. Actually, together with a colleague, we would like to use this data for a research project. I have some additional questions related to the data and it would be great if we could get in contact about it. I have created the Wikipedia account "Researchguy11", but I am not sure if Wikipedia allows for communication and/or if you are interested in sharing your insights on Michelin star restaurants and your documentation efforts. If so, maybe you can write me on my "Researchguy11" page. Thanks and all the best! Researchguy11 (talk) 10:07, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Point of grammar[edit]

On Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/El Dorado Kitchen, you said "I'm inherently bias as I'm the person who wrote the article." You are not bias. Bias as a noun means a particular tendency or inclination, especially one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question; prejudice. You are not the tendency. You may be subject to the tendency.

Bias as a verb means to cause partiality or favoritism in (a person); influence, especially unfairly which is what you appear to be trying to communicate has happened.

To be correct, you would say "I'm inherently biased.." using the past participle tense of the verb bias as the object of the verb "to-be" meaning you are subject to that partiality. A participle is a verb that modifies the noun. In this case, the verb is bias, and the noun is you.

Hope this helps. The Dissident Aggressor 16:37, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm, that is not my text... The Banner talk 16:44, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Duh. My bad. <deliberate use of poor grammar> The Dissident Aggressor 16:47, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Face-smile.svg The Banner talk 17:29, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Deletion of MJ Mohamed Iqbal Page[edit]

Dear Banner,

Mr. Iqbal is well known personality as well as Islamic scholar in UAE (In Dubai). Iqbal is living in Dubai serving to Tamil and Islamic Society in so many ways. I can prove by providing photographs, Unfortunately very few web links are available at this moment. He is a freelance writer and he had been written so many articles in different topics, and they were published in magazines, newspapers, tabloids etc.

Iqbal is deserve to be in Wikipedia. Please advise what I should do to put about him back to Wikipedia. Your advise is very much appreciated. Nm.imthiyas (talk) 17:40, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

No one has a right on a Wikipedia article. Both times now you have failed to prove that mr. Iqbal is notable. That is the problem. The Banner talk 17:45, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

In what way you are expecting to prove him? I really don't understand, Only web links can decide a persons notability? Nm.imthiyas (talk) 21:04, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Cavern airfield[edit]

Hello, why did you nominate it for deletion? What is wrong? FFA P-16 (talk) 19:30, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Double text, no need for a separate article. You can read that on the nomination page. And I note this page on the Dutch Wikipedia: nl:Overleg gebruiker:FFA P-16/blockmsg The Banner talk 19:35, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

But its not a dubble text. The cavern airfield was a project, it was not built. In this project the aircrat should start inside the mountain trough a tunnel like runway. the aircraft caverns (the article woh is said as dubble) are built and locatet on diffrend geographical locations. by aircraft caverns the aircrat did not start inside the caverns, the aircraft have to be pullet out by aircraft tugs and have to taxi to the runnway. FFA P-16 (talk) 19:43, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on Template talk:Infobox musical artist[edit]

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Template talk:Infobox musical artist. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:09, 22 August 2014 (UTC)