Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ima Hogg

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 03:07, 30 March 2008.

Ima Hogg[edit]

I'm nominating this article for featured article because it is the most comprehensive single article on this fascinating woman, and it meets the Featured article critera. I did a lot of the research and writing, but this has been a team collaboration. Special thank-yous to: Elcobbola and The Fat Man Who Never Came Back for image help, Corvus cornix and SWTPC6800 for research, Nishkid64 for writing the lead, Yomangani and Maralia and Tony1 for copyediting, and SandyGeorgia for MOS help and general whip-cracking (and if I forgot anyone I am sorry). Karanacs (talk) 16:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:LEAD and reformat with a four paragraph lead.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 21:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
done. Karanacs (talk) 02:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Generally speaking, it looks like a very interesting article. I noticed that two of the picture captions mention the entrance to her home, but I don't see that the significance of the entrance is explained anywhere. Why is the entrance notable?Ferrylodge (talk) 21:58, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not to mention that the second one's caption is talking about how she restored the entrance, when the actual picture is of the back. — Laura Scudder ☎ 22:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good points, I added a sentence to explain why the entrances were a big deal at this home. What is now the front entrance used to be the back; the original entrance is now the back of the house. Karanacs (talk) 02:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jim Hogg served as district attorney from 1880 to 1884. This article suggests there was an intervening election in 1882 (which he won after giving his daughter an amusing name). However, The Texas Constitution of 1868, Article V, Section 12, stated: "There shall be a District Attorney elected by the qualified voters of each judicial district, who shall hold his office for four years; and the duties, salaries and perquisites of District Attorney shall be prescribed by law."[1] Are we sure that the term of office had been reduced to two years, as of 1882? In other words, are we sure that there was an election in 1882?Ferrylodge (talk) 23:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is what my source said, in discussion of her name. I checked several sources on Jim Hogg, and they all said that he was district attorney from 1880-1884 but didn't specify whether that was one term or two. I checked the Constitution of 1872 (which should have been in effect during the 1880s), and it says that if there is no district attorney, then a county attorney would have a 2-yr term.[2] It's possible that my source confused district with county attorney; I'm not sure. Karanacs (talk) 02:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I found a source that definitely confirms he ran for reelection in 1882.[3]Ferrylodge (talk) 02:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We say in the article that "there are some who believe that James Stephen Hogg...." Do we know whether this is a fringe belief, the belief of a large minority, or a majority belief? For a Wikipedia article to say "some people say" seems weaselly even if the Wikipedia article is quoting some source saying "some people say." See what I'm saying?Ferrylodge (talk) 00:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is a direct quote, and the source does not go into any more detail. The Hoggs are the subject of much legend in Texas; these stories are common knowledge and often discussed in schools. This is another legend, and I don't have any way of being more specific. If others think that this is also problematic we can take out that whole sentence, but I'd like to wait for further opinions. Karanacs (talk) 02:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't take out that sentence, but maybe rephrasing to: "legend has it 'that James Stephen Hogg....'" There seems to be a ton of evidence that this was mere legend. See Mary Kelly's book. Also, since this book by Kelly is available online (via Google Books), it would probably be a good idea to link to it.Ferrylodge (talk) 03:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to think about the rewording. I think the article makes it clear that this is a legend, and I'm not sure the value in removing this as a direct quote. (and thanks for adding the link to the Google book in the article) Karanacs (talk) 03:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support with a few small points.
    • "Hogg worked on a volume about her father's papers" - the word "volume" is wierd and unclear to me in this context. Do you mean a single book in a set of books? If so, it's oddly worded.
    • I haven't seen other articles have external links to pictures of the subject. I'm not sure if this is within Wikipedia standards so I think they should either be added if PD-US or the links removed. There's already a link to the Commons category, so PD images could be added there if the point is making a collection of images about her.

Overall, this article is very well written and ready to be featured. Royalbroil 02:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have reworded to "Hogg worked on a collection of her father's papers", as it was actually a multi-volume set. Thanks for pointing that out. I agree with you about the images, especially since several of them were poor images. I've removed all but her page at the UT Santa Rita Awards. Karanacs (talk) 03:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, excellent article. --Laser brain (talk) 02:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC) Comments Wow, good work. The prose is what I would expect from the editors who worked on the article. I really didn't find anything "wrong"; below are some comments that boil down to preference so they are not dealbreakers.[reply]
    • "Hogg successfully ran for a seat on the Houston School Board in 1943, where she worked to remove gender and race as criteria for pay..." Maybe pay rate?
      • Changed but feels awkward. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:23, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I changed it to "...criteria for determining pay." Feel free to change back to the original; it's no big deal. --Laser brain (talk) 02:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Under Ima's supervision, the house was later remodeled and a portico was added to what had been the back of the house; Ima made this the new front entrance, orienting the house away from Varner Creek." This sticks out as a time you switch to calling the subject "Ima" when you normally call her "Hogg" or rarely "Ima Hogg".
    • "For the next year Ima nursed him..." Ditto.
      • Here, I changed a few, not all, because it's necessary in some cases to distinguish her from him. Please adjust if still needed ?? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:23, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Hogg won with 4,350 votes, more than 1,000 more than the runner-up." That's a lot of mores.
    • "Her first purchase, in 1922, was a 'Spanish foot chair'" Why single quotes? --Laser brain (talk) 21:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Issues resolved, --GrahamColmTalk 23:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments before supporting.
  • I don't understand why some dates are linked and others are not. The ones that are don't add anything of value to the article. --GrahamColmTalk 00:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Full dates and month-day combinations are wikilinked to allow date preferences to work. Did I miss any of those? Karanacs (talk) 21:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Graham, the date linking is correct. I saw a query about dates from you on another FAC where they were also correctly linked. I'll take this to your talk page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • What's an art program?
    • I don't know how to fix this, Graham, since I don't know where the disconnect is. It's a program in the school for children to study art; someone probably had to start it. Is there a different use of the word program in British English? Can you suggest a fix? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Graham changed to art education programs; much better. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...works by Picasso, Klee, and Matisse, among others. She donated hundreds of these famed artworks.. wouldn't masterpieces be better here?
  • WRT the differences between American and British English, the use of punctuation is suprisingly different. Could you please check the result of "defending, as she put it, 'my good name'". I would have written the result of "defending", as she put it, "my good name" .
    • This is a direct quote from the biography, the only part that Ima is quoted as saying is "my good name", the rest is from the author. The punctuation is thus correct (if a little confusing). Karanacs (talk) 21:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hogg's mother attempted to teach her ladylike skills such as... I would prefer the chauvanistic word "ladylike" to be neutered by commas.
    • While the word may be chauvanistic now, at the time many girls went to school to learn those types of skills; in the context of the timeframe of this article, I think it is appropriate as is. Karanacs (talk) 21:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Her mother also encouraged Hogg to read and to learn German .. is confusing. Does this mean to read German and learn German. Or to read period. And to learn German? A comma might help.
  • There's a few occurances of purchase and its variants. Do rich folk purchase whereas ordinary folk buy?
    • Well, yes, when you buy property and art, it is usually called a purchase. I looked at each occasion and wasn't sure we should switch it to buy or bought, as it sounded very informal. Switch them if you'd like? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • and she went on to serve 12 terms in that capacity - in that capacity, is redundant.
  • while getting into a taxi why the while?--GrahamColmTalk 21:38, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(I just had four (five now) edit conflicts when trying to do so strike outs; so please take them as done. --GrahamColmTalk 02:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)) (Just finishing my strike outs)--GrahamColmTalk 18:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support Having gotten the nitt-picking sorted out, now it’s time for the compliments. This is a masterpiece , a fine, encyclopaedic biography of one of America’s great philanthropists. I felt I knew Ima Hogg well after reading this and her portrait at the top of the article is worthy of being featured alone. I know have said this about other FAs, but this is a great Wikipedia treasure. Graham. --GrahamColmTalk 02:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment There may be some organizational quirks remaining from the “dump all information in now and sort out later” writing method. For instance, as Ferrylodge pointed out, there are events from 1914 in the “early years” section (Ima was in her early 30s). Also, the third paragraph of the “Education and musical interests” seems out of place, as the context (or, perhaps, just the wording) seems to imply that visiting “concerts and museums” was a merely a diversion from grief (i.e. not an action that should really be interpreted as supporting/indicating/etc. her interests). ЭLСОВВОLД talk 21:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think some of that can be resolved by moving some of the info that relates to her character and disposition into that section. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One morning, Hogg was awakened by a burglar in her bedroom. She confronted the man, who was attempting to steal her jewelry, and convinced him to not only return the jewelry, but "wrote down a name and address, handed it to him and told him to go there that very day to get a job".[96] When asked why she did that, Hogg responded, "He didn't look like a bad man."[96] Later that year, she sailed to Germany, alone.
How old was Miss Ima during this burglary. "Later that year???" Later what year? The year of the burglary? A mediocre student of history would have to click on the Franz Ferdinand link to figure when these events occurred.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 01:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Added citation to the burglary in 1914. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Makes more sense, at least to me. She was thirty-two! That would have been a much cuter burglar-thwarting story if she had been ten years old or something.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 02:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Significant contributor moral support. Karanacs gets the credit, and this article was a fun collaboration. I figure as a significant contributor because of my gazillion little MoS tweaks, ref fixes, etc. The article is soundly and reliably sourced, has free and properly licensed images, is MoS compliant, is comprehensive and engaging, and has been copyedited by many of Wiki's finest writers. Nice job Karanacs, on a fine tribute to a great lady ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unbelievably minor style issue, of the sort SandyGeorgia regularly rectifies. The Fat Man spies some inconsistency among parenthetical metric units. In one place we see "fifteen miles [24 km]" whilst in another we see "5 feet 2 inches (157 cm)."--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 02:50, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first had to be handled differently because it's within a direct quote, and the cm conversion isn't part of the quote, hence brackets. Suggestions? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are quite right, as usual. There's no other way to handle these, as long as all the non-quote metric units are formatted the same.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 02:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The following sentences sound awkward when paired together: "Her interest in mental health came from her father, who had read widely on mental health issues; during his terms as governor, Ima had often accompanied him on visits to state institutions, including charity hospitals and asylums for the mentally ill.[51] While she was a student at UT, she became fascinated with mental health.[52]"
So did she glean an interest in mental health from from her father when she was a child, or did she first become interested in the subject as a college student? We might want to re-word the second sentence to make it clearer that she continued to pursue her passion for mental health while in college (as long as we don't stray from the sources, of course).--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 03:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That looks good, Karancs.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 13:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – Worthy article on an amazing woman. (Disclaimer: I provided some bits of information from the Iscoe reference—some of which were included and some of which were not—and also a few relatively minor edits, but was not otherwise engaged in the creation of the article) — Bellhalla (talk) 03:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support—Well-written, comprehensive, well-cited. Disclaimer: I copy-edited the prose a while back. Tony (talk) 05:37, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Amazingly well-written article about a great woman. -MBK004 05:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

<off topic comment moved to talk page> SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support with a few nitpicks
Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 22:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • First paragraph of Name section, fourth sentence (starts "According to Virginia...") just seems awkward to me with the parenthetical bit at the end walled off by footnotes. Perhaps word the last part as "year where he was running in a close race for district attorney of the Seventh District in Texas,[3] which he won."
      • I adjusted the phrasing as suggested, but left the attribution to her biographer. Because it's a belief, opinion, possibly unfounded, it's important to attribute the opinion. Maybe on article talk we can sort out a better way to address this? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Early years section, last sentence of the first paragraph. Indignities? Sounds a bit POV to me. Can we quote her for that? Or a biographer? As written it seems like the article is casting judgement that children having to help clean unusual. (It better not be or my son would never clean his room...)
      • Can't disagree with that at all; fixed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I confess--I love the word "indiginity" and use tend to overuse it. At least you didn't revert my translation from the Latin.[4]  :-)--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 16:55, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • No, I didn't do that <grin> If prying chewing gum is an indignity, my offspring will be calling for child protection services soon :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • You mention that one of her brothers was William, but refer to him as Will through most of the article. Perhaps put the nickname with the first mention of his full name to make things clear?
    • Education section, the last paragraph, seventh sentence. College Women's Club? Which college? Rice? St. Thomas? Another one? There are a number of colleges in Houston.
      • I don't have the Bernhard book; pinging Nishkid64, who has the book. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • The book does not specify which college. Perhaps, this was just a group of female students from different colleges across Houston. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not love) 17:13, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise looks pretty good! Ealdgyth - Talk 02:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – incredible article, beautifully written. Miss Ima is smiling. (Contributions - few edits early on and a few images), Postoak (talk) 19:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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