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March 31[edit]

Curiosities about the 1966 World Cup in England[edit]

Hi. If the World Cup was held in England alone, why does the Union Jack, the flag of the whole of the United Kingdom, appear in the logo of the event? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.41.100.42 (talk) 12:06, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The relationship between the nations of the United Kingdom are complex; see Administrative geography of the United Kingdom, Countries of the United Kingdom, and Terminology of the British Isles. England, as such, doesn't actually have any distinct political existence in the United Kingdom, and in 1966 none of the four Home Nations did. Devolution of powers from the UK parliament to the various national parliaments in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland didn't start until the late 1990s. England has never (AFAIK) had its own devolved government within the UK. The Union Jack in the 1960s was really the only well-known symbol for the country, the various far-right English Nationalist groups adopted the Saint George's Cross in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, but it was basically never used in any official capacity, and definitely not in the 1960s. It has seen benign use at sporting events where England competes on its own as well in recent years, but not in the 1960s AFAIK. --Jayron 32 12:22, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is not true to say that in 1966 none of the Home Nations had a distinct political existence. In 1966 Northern Ireland had home rule, its own parliament and its own laws. Scotland had its own legal system. Wales had a specific government department and unlike England no established Church. DuncanHill (talk) 14:21, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, it's complicated. I had forgotten about Northern Ireland, but Scotland, which retains it's own legal system, and Wales, which yes, does not fall under the COE formally, still did not have any local legislative bodies at the time. UK political geography is probably some of the messiest in the world (Jay Foreman's "Politics Unboringed" and "Map Men" YouTube series do a good job of showing how messy it is). --Jayron 32 16:39, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See also: the West Lothian question --Verbarson ^talk_edits 18:49, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) A good summary. This view of the 1966 cup final crowd shows a sea of Union Jacks but only one St George's Cross (the other red/white flag is the flag of Malta I believe). For English people, there was little separation of national identity between British and English until recent decades, whereas there always has been for natives of the other Home Nations. Not quite right about the St George's Cross having no official status, it is the only flag which can be flown from Church of England buildings. [1] Alansplodge (talk) 14:28, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The other red/white flag in the image appears to have a horizontal bicolour design, while that of Malta's flag is vertical. Perhaps the flag of Monaco? --Lambiam 09:35, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes, quite right. It could be either the flag of Monaco or the flag of Indonesia, but quite why either of those nationalities would adverise themselves at a match between England and West Germany is a mystery. Our Indonesia at the FIFA World Cup article says that it didn't enter the competition in 1966, while the Monaco national football team isn't a member of FIFA and is therefore inelligable. Alansplodge (talk) 09:50, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's Poland's flag, blown upside down in the wind, then. Mind you they don't seem to have been in the 1966 competition either, probably because communism. Oh wait, "did not qualify". Hmm. Card Zero (talk) 11:44, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just remembered we were at war with Indonesia in 1966. The mystery deepens. Alansplodge (talk) 22:24, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, the confusion between English and British identity continues to the present with the England team's use of God Save the Queen as their national anthem, which is of course, the anthem for the whole Union. Our National anthem of England has more details.

A couple of forum threads date the widespread adoption of the Cross of St George over the Union Jack at England games to as late as 1996. [2] [3] Alansplodge (talk) 10:09, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Might it just be a very simple red and white flag, representing the colours the England side played in? Home-made flags and banners were a common sight at prominent football matches back then. Seems far more likely to me than being a flag of a third party country uninvolved in the match (or even tournament). --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 12:36, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]