Talk:Albanian nationalism

Fresh start

How do you like this lead:

Albanian nationalism is a general grouping of ideas and concepts that were formed during the Albanian national movement of the 19th century. They address certain goals such as redress of historical 'injustices', free movement among Albanians, control over the 'Albanian space', acceptance of Albanian factor as a major player in the region. But the matter of goals tends to be complex, as they differ from one region to another.. There are other more extreme claims of nationalists among some Albanian circles that lean towards the creation of a Greater Albania, but such claim seem to be rare and isolated examples with no support.

What do you think? —Anna Comnena (talk) 18:01, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

The lead's initial sentence is somewhat misleading since it points absolutely to the national movement. Moreover, the word 'nationalistic' is mysteriously absent from the entirely lead.

Expression like:control over the 'Albanian space', acceptance of Albanian factor as a major player in the region, are also misleading -comfusing, need some rewording.

However, the lead in general is really a good start. I'll compare both versions (this and the article's) and see what can be done.Alexikoua (talk) 18:24, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Too generic and lacks any sort of direction utterly rejectable.The 19th century is again off-topic as this is about systemic nationalism of communism and of our current days.Communism attempted to appropriate ancient Greek history with Pelasgians and the claims with Illyrians in a pseudo-historic manner and as Muzafer Korkuti from Hoxha's regime says like Hitler did."Enver Hoxha did this as did Hitler".Also note that the Albanian state claims Pelasgians,Aristotle,Alexander the Great and others so this is no.Megistias (talk) 20:57, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Megistias, that will and should be part of the article if there are references. But it is totally not interesting and not important for a generic reader to have that on the lead. (Though it is clearly interesting for you!) We should give people information not bombard them with claims. —Anna Comnena (talk) 21:29, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Your suggestion is not only generic,misleading and irrelevant it also goes against the article itself.Megistias (talk) 21:45, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Can you please elaborate? In detail! —Anna Comnena (talk) 22:04, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Its against the theme of the article and the current summary's references.A proper metaphor would be trying to water the wine down with water but your suggestion above seems to be only water.The subject of the article is albanian nationalism , now and how it came to be now meaning how it became a System, and that occured during communism.The summary should summarize the systematic forging of nationalism in communism ,that it carried on to today and what the nuclei of that nationalism were and are.The current summary summarizes those things, your suggestion is the aformenetioned things i mentioned as it is in effect detached(thus "against") from the article nuclei and what it refers to.It has no merit whatsover.Megistias (talk) 23:28, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

"How it became a System" - that is a conspiracy theory. There is no Albanian nationalist system. Of course people in Albania and Kosovo love their country, but that does not make it a system. If Albania was such a country that NATO would not accept it as a member. However I agree with Alex that some minor changes could enrich it. You are welcome to propose. —Anna Comnena (talk) 00:13, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, forgive me about not sharing your view about NATO... Ideologically, communism was supposed to have nothing to do with nations (as Marx intended it), yet, when Stalin decided to have communism in one country, commmunism no longer in practice contradicted nationalism. In fact, Stalin developed a nationalist communist Russia, so that the people are proud of their communist country. Hoxha, as we know, was a Stalinist, and it was far more natural for him to develop the idea of a communist state with communist-nationalist people when he became isolated from almost the rest of the world (with the exception of... China). So, ideologically, you're right Anna, but practically, Megistias is right. Since one of the main concepts of communism is expansion on itself anyway, it is natural for a communist leader (especially a Stalinist communist leader) to inspire nationalism to his people and nation when a part of this nation lives/might live in large numbers in a neighbouring country.--Michael X the White (talk) 10:24, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

How it became a system is becoming systematic , part of the workings of a State.There was and is an Albanian nationalist system, as in schools Aristotle is considered an Albanian among other issues.Megistias (talk) 10:36, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Michael, I agree with you on that. But citing Megistias, today's Albania has a nationalistic system. That is fallacious is so many ways. (NATO acceptance was one instance - saying Albania has a nationalistic system means NATO supports Albanian nationalism) As for the schooling system, it is debatable if the school texts say that Aristotle was an Albanian. I am from Kosovo and I never heard of such a thing. In Albanian (though I sincerely doubt) it could be! But even then, it does not mean that there is a nationalist system with irridentist aims as Megistias is claiming (it could be a poor schooling system). Furthermore, the article has other really extraordinary claims. It leans toward conspiracy theories. —Anna Comnena (talk) 13:59, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Your personal attestations are irrelevant.Nato has nothing to do with it ,Nato looks after its own interest.Megistias (talk) 14:07, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

"Nato has nothing to do with it ,Nato looks after its own interest." - that is also a fallacious claim. And your personal opinion, totally non-relevant to the discussed issue. If you cannot argue with facts please try and spear us from your "opinion". —Anna Comnena (talk) 14:13, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that each of us can do good essays on Albanian communism, but that is not the point. Albanian communism effects on Albanian nationalism are studied and published on the book of Vickers cited above. The fact that according to her opinion (but not only hers see others also) "Hodja was seen by nationalist right as a traitor of the nation" does ring a bell to you? Should we ignore her and others because we think differently? Could we stop OR-ing Aigest (talk) 08:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• And quit the revert-warring also, otherwise I'll be handing out mass revert paroles etc. Final warning for Megistias, Kreshnik, Anna. Moreschi (talk) 11:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Could we remove the last two sentences of the first paragraph in the Introduction because they do not seem to belong there. One of the reasons is that the issue they discuss is not central to the topic "Albanian Nationalism", it is enough that it is discussed under the Evolution Under the People's Republic of Albania, which by the way needs to be structured; the other reason is that source number 11 and 12 is somehow too loosely interpreted, resulting in a classical case of original research. If you could read further in the chapter, you would be able to see the conclusion the author gives, citing the phenomenon of "representative of 'imperialist' national archaeologies (meaning post-totalitarian archaeologies in young developing nations) may build support for their own interpretations of the past by disparaging those of the archaeologists who once served under dictators. At the same time, some post-processual archaeologists have called for a relativist approach to the past, informed by the post-modern critique. Given this approach, all interpretations of the archaeological record are potentially equally valid, those produced in democracies as well as those produced under dictatorship." Furthermore, the author warns us, that "professional archaeologists must face these issues with some sense of responsibility. There are still today situations in which archeology is grossly distorted for purely political reasons". And frankly, by seeing the way in which this article is being edited, I'd say he is uttermost right. So please, before submitting any sources, do a full research throughout your source, to make sure that you're not merely "rationalizing" your point. Nightphilips (talk) 23:19, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

NLA

Associated with the KLA,ANA and considered a terrorist organization even by association.A transmuted entity from previous terrorist organizations.An updated version of the KLA and nothing more.

• The Fight Against Terrorism and Crisis Management in the Western Balkans by Iztok Prezelj,2008,ISBN-1586038230,page 49-50
• Islamic Terror and the Balkans by Shaul Shay,2009,ISBN 1412808685,page 115,
• The United Nations & regional security: Europe and beyond by Michael Charles Pugh,Waheguru Pal Singh Sidhu,2003,ISBN- 1588262324,page 126,
• Understanding Civil War: Europe, Central Asia, and other regions by Paul Collier,Nicholas Sambanis,2005.,ISBN-0821360493,page 238-239,241,242,256,254

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Megistias (talk • contribs) 12:39, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Is this an essay?

Whoever has written large parts of this article should know that taking sources and then jumping to other conclusions is pointless. If there is to be an article about Albanian nationalism let it be neutral without exaggerations and misconceptions.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:13, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

This need to be rewrited from scratch to be neutral. If some Albanian scholar claims Aristotle to be an Illyrian that really doesn't show that this is a part of Albanian nationalism. --— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:17, 17 March 2010 (UTC) I'm looking through the templates to find any appropriate ones to add.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:18, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

• "Albanian nationalism co-identifies Albanians with Illyrians". This is not an aspect of Albanian nationalism but the most prevalent theory about the origins of the Albanians among all scholars. I'll remove it for that reason.

• About Pelasgians there is used a source saying "the mythical ancestors of the Greeks" while that is contradicted by the absolute majority of scholars. Moreover this sentence is out of nowhere linked to "Albanians claiming Ancient Greeks". I'll remove and rewrite it as a theory of Hahn used by some contemporary writers later.

• "This kind of historical revisionist ideology is mainly associated with concepts of irredentism and ethnic superiority over neighboring states and peoples". Is this an essay? Sources 14, 16,17 don't even refer to that, source 15 says it's used by some scholars. I'll remove rewrite it some parts of it later and the sources this time will be related to the sentence.

• The section "Evolution under the People's Republic of Albania" is another essay-ish piece of text and its author can't even cite correctly. The ""supposedly" Illyrian names" apart from being inaccurate since 80% of the names were either used by then or added by copying them from Illyrian tombs and Illyrian names mentioned by ancient scholars, is also very argumentative. "Supposedly" is another way of the author saying "I don't really think they were Illyrian". But we're not looking for a user's opinions in an encyclopedia.
• "Influence on Albanian diaspora" how is that even related to nationalism? Somebody created a company named after Illyrian which is generally considered related to Albanians, and this is a sign of nationalism?.
• Albanian–Serbian relations are foreign relations between Albania and Serbia. Albania has an embassy in Belgrade.[75] Serbia has an embassy in Tirana.[76] Both countries are full members of the Council of Europe, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), the Central European Free Trade Agreement (CEFTA) and the Organization of the Black Sea Economic Cooperation (BSEC). Also both countries are recognized as potential candidate countries by the European Union.

• Albanian-Greek relations are foreign relations between Greece and Albania. The two countries share a history of conflict that continues to the present day. However, from both sides it has been expressed that the foreign relations between the two countries are being transformed into an excellent example of good neighborliness, but also of cooperation.

Whoever copy/pasted this in this article should really wonder where the actual relation of those blocks of texts to Albanian nationalism is.

• "a branch of the so-called Illyrians who had allegedly inhabited the region". "so-called", "allegedly" Should I say for 10th time this isn't an essay?.
• "Shops in Kovoso are frequently named Illyria Tours or Dardania Import-Export.[51] A Dardania Bank exists[52] in Albania." Again theories about naming shops after ancient placenames of regions are connected to nationalism. I'll remove it.
• These ideologies and Greater Albania have proponents and patrons that are not only nationalists but criminals[53] and terrorists[54][55][56][57][58] involved[59] in drug trafficking, human trafficking and other activities motivated by profit.[60]

On the "terrorists" the author "forgets" to add that KLA was delisted from terrorist groups during the Kosovo war and only uses the sources to say prior to the Kosovo War they were considered by some countries as terrorists. We don't live in 1998 but in 2010. Apart from that: the "not only nationalists but criminals" and the drug trafficking etc. is based on sources that can't be even checked. I'll remove them because apart from being argumentative and plain accusations they promote unsubstantiated claims.

• Ismail Kadare, a candidate for Nobel Prize in Literature, himself claims that Albanians are more Greek than the Greeks themselves,[27] and attempts to construct a Greek-Illyrian continuity[27].

The source comments on an Illyrian continuity not a Greek Illyrian continuity. Source: "Beyond the claims of Illyrian descent and continuity etc."

And the Kadare supposedly claimed sentence is taken out of context as the source says: a more powerful myth emerges here: that the Albanians are more Greek than the Greeks themselves because Albanians are closer to Homeric society and Homeric ideals. The way it is written and the unfounded and contrary to the source connection below imply that the connection is based on ancestral origin, while the source says that the connection is made through connections to Homeric ideals. I'll start rewriting it now.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 10:16, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

The article is a total mess. An user has added using some irrelevant sources that Albanian nationalism is a similar concept to Albanianism. Albanianism is another term to say Albanian nationalism not another concept.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 10:41, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Initiating a direct deletion barrage [[1]], from the moment you showed up here, isn't a sound strategy. ZjarriRrethues you need to calm down, just wait for a couple of days and since there is no oposition you can start the necessary adjustments, step-by-step .Alexikoua (talk) 11:33, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry I'm calm enough, I made some changes and not all of them because many are obvious like the shops named after Illyria a fact that has no relation to Albanian nationalism nor is encyclopedic. But I would really like to know who are those ips from Greece which out of nowhere decided with no previous experience to "rv" and "rv mass POV".--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 12:41, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

@Zjarri, the problems on the article come from its conceptual problems that we have discussed before here (see archives please) but we saw I own the article behavior many times. The same issues you brought here have been discussed before but we got tired in the end. Hopefully you have the nerves to change it. Best regards Aigest (talk) 15:43, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

There is the WP:IDONTLIKEIT issue on things people dont like. If there is a disagreement, offer the cited data from the references and dont go on a monologue that asks and answers itself.Megistias (talk) 10:56, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

And I posted the citations by the sources you have added. Did you by any chance edit the article as IP?--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 11:10, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Fully protected for one week

If you intend to remove a large amount of content from this article, please get consensus on the Talk page first. I am especially concerned about recent edits by User:ZjarriRrethues. His account was created on 10 March, and already he is making edits which reveal great knowledge of Wikipedia policy. He is also removing large amounts of content. Please pay attention to what others think, and try to persuade them that your changes are correct. EdJohnston (talk) 18:58, 18 March 2010 (UTC)