Talk:Timeline of the burrito

Burro meat

This newspaper article from 1917 states that burro meat was "toothsome and succulent". --Dwchin (talk) 09:44, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Some of the bullets in this article defy notability

It might seem to some that several of the items on the time line defy creditable notibility. Just because something makes it into a local newspaper doesn't mean it's a notable member of this timeline. I would like to suggest a review of the items on this article with an eye to important events. — fcsuper ^{(How's That?, That's How!)} _{(Exclusionistic Immediatist )} — 20:07, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Could you list the problems ones below? Viriditas (talk) 20:44, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

The entire 2007 list of entries to start with.

Mar: Chipotle Mexican Grill starts "Don't Stand in Line " online burrito ordering system[22]

Jun: Ryan Goff gets prison term for Taco Bell burrito extortion"[23][24]

Jul 29: Moe's Southwest Grill (FL) starts annual competitive burrito eating contest[25]

Rosemary Gonzales arrested for smuggling drugs inside Taco Bell burrito

Burritophile.com launches

Freebirds World Burrito (TX) starts online orders

etc etc etc. That's just the 21st century entries. The fact that this article is so heavily loaded with this nonsense tempts me to tag it as AfD. — fcsuper ^{(How's That?, That's How!)} _{(Exclusionistic Immediatist )} — 22:44, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

It is not nonsense, but someone got carried away and added non-notable data points. Please remove them. Viriditas (talk) 23:34, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Mission begun...more edits to come. Going to let it rest for a week or so to let everyone else interested in this article catch up with the changes. — fcsuper ^{(How's That?, That's How!)} _{(Exclusionistic Immediatist )} — 19:47, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

===Questionable items===

Can someone comment with sources that show how these items are relevent to Timeline of the burrito?

1923 Alejandro Borquez opens Sonora cafe in Los Angeles (later renamed El Cholo Spanish Cafe) burrito on the menu is listed as being introduced in 1977

1934 Restaurente del Bol Corona opens in Tijuana, Mexico.

1949 Restaurant Xochimilco opens in Hermosillo, Sonora, Mexico

1965 Mi Rancho market sells burritos in the deli in SF

1973 La Taqueria opens in SF

These are just resturants. I've not found any link for their notable contribution to the burrito history.

— fcsuper ^{(How's That?, That's How!)} _{(Exclusionistic Immediatist )} — 20:11, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I disagree with many of your deletions. "These are just restaurants" is not a reason to delete them. They are notable in history of the cuisine of California, in this case, burritos. These restaurants are in fact notable, and I'm restoring the entries. You cannot have a "history of the burrito" without these entries, so I'm a bit confused by your argument for removal. Judging by your comments, you seem to be taking exception with the lack of context since you don't see how they are important to the history of the burrito. In that case, the entries require expansion, not deletion. I hope you understand this point. In other words, just because you don't understand why they are important, doesn't mean they require deletion, just the opposite in fact. Viriditas (talk) 07:54, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

It is obvious that I didn't make these edits right away. I appreciate your entry into this disucssion now. As noted above, the question has been open for awhile, so I acted on it in good faith without any further input at the time. However, the fact that I cannot determine the notability is representative that someone else not familiar with the subject will not be able to either. We should work to establish notability quickly, otherwise, I'm not sure that many of these entries have any value. I ask for creditable sources. Menus from a resturant not creditable. The number one question I have for the 1923 item is this: Why is the fact that this resturant's opening and serving burritos notable? If this can be answered in the main burrito article, then maybe we can link to that location within the entry? — fcsuper ^{(How's That?, That's How!)} _{(Exclusionistic Immediatist )} — 16:53, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Additionally, I will continue to say that local events are note notable enough for any timeline. The fact that a burrito was made in honor of Elvis is completely unnotable for wikipedia since anyone can do this at any time. It doesn't really matter if the story made a local paper. Its a bit like having articles on local bands or the results of local senior shuffle board leagues. So, these items need to be seriously reconsideration. I will repeat my earlier statement in different words. There's a lot of fluff in this article that just doesn't belong on wikipedia. — fcsuper ^{(How's That?, That's How!)} _{(Exclusionistic Immediatist )} — 17:05, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Let's take a look at the Elvis stuff: "In honor of Elvis Presley, Taco Villa offers peanut butter and banana burritos." This was published in the Odessa American. In terms of food history, this burrito variety appears unique, created to honor Elvis Presley by the Mexican fast food restaurant chain Taco Villa. Taco Villa is a notable restaurant chain and Elvis Presley is a notable entertainer. I don't see what a "local paper" has to do with this. This is a "in popular culture" item, which is sourced. We know, for example, that in popular culture, Elvis is associated with the peanut butter, banana and bacon sandwich. In fact, according to that sourced article, "books on Elvis Presley's favorite foods and culinary tastes, as well as other published reports on his taste for peanut butter and banana sandwiches with or without bacon, have made the sandwich widely associated with Presley." So, we see that this variety already has notability. Next, we see that a notable restaurant, Taco Villa, is paying homage to Elvis by using this notable variety in a burrito. So we see that the person (Elvis), the variety (PB&B), and the restaurant (Taco Villa) are all notable, regardless of the source being a "local paper". But, let's take a look at this local paper: The Odessa American was founded in 1940, and is a 20,000+ circulation newspaper serving a population of 90,000 in an 18 county region in West Texas. It won the Pulitzer Prize in 1988. It is owned by "Freedom Communications, headquartered in Irvine, Calif...The company publishes more than 70 news publications with a combined circulation of more than one million subscribers. The Broadcast Division includes eight television stations: five CBS and three ABC network affiliates." In other words, this is a reliable source covering a notable topic. It should be noted that the reason this is appropriately covered in the Odessa American, is because the Taco Villa chain was founded in Odessa, Texas. So, we would not only expect the news department at Odessa American to cover this story, but we would depend on it based on their geographical location. Viriditas (talk) 19:50, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

For example, there's a massive SO-WHAT? entry:

'Charles Hodgkins begins gathering data from 170 taquerias in San Francisco for Burritoeater.com' How is this entry significant to the history of the burrito? The results of this search MIGHT present notable facts, but stating that start of the search itself is notable is very silly. — fcsuper ^{(How's That?, That's How!)} _{(Exclusionistic Immediatist )} — 17:12, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Charles Hodgkins is a notable food writer from California who is employed by the California Culinary Academy. He is also the creator of burritoeater.com, whose data he used to publish in the San Francisco Bay Guardian and Synthesis, and whose efforts were covered by San Francisco Chronicle (4/2/06), The New York Times (11/14/05), The Los Angeles Times (1/4/06), Gelf Magazine (2/22/06), in addition to others. International travel guide publisher Rough Guides has also published or mentioned his work. Lonely Planet's California Trips also mentions his achievements as a burrito expert on four separate pages.[1] Viriditas (talk) 19:20, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I think I'm tending to agree with fcsuper on this. There's nothing to show why most of the entries here are part of the burrito's history. Was Restaurant Xochimilco the first restaurant to offer a burrito? To call it a burrito? To bring it to a wider audience? All a reader knows is that some restaurant opened in Sonora - there's no context. And that's true for most of the entries. "Anna's Taqueria opens in Brookline, MA"? Who cares? Was it the first burrito-selling place in New England? The first chain restaurant? You get the picture. I understand the difficulty in reliably sourcing a non-academic topic like the burrito, but there at least needs to be context and some notability to put something in the timeline. I'd support the removal of non-notable entries, adding context to others where appropriate, and depending on how much is left, merging the rest to the main burrito page (which does need help in the history section). Dohn joe (talk) 19:10, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

It's possible that there is an entry or two that were added by someone unfamiliar with inclusion criteria, but many of this stuff is already referenced and notable. I'll remove non-notable items as I find them, but many of the examples Fcsuper and yourself offer above (El Cholo and Restaurant Xochimilco) have been covered in RS, for example by notable food historian Andrew F. Smith and writer Peter Fox. Viriditas (talk) 19:26, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

That's fine. I'm not saying that Xochimilco isn't notable or reliably sourced - my main point is about the lack of context in the timeline. If the entry said something like "Early burrito purveyor Restaurant Xochimilco opens in Hermosillo", I'd be fine with that. But naked facts aren't very helpful to the average reader - that's all I'm trying to say. Dohn joe (talk) 19:48, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

That's a very valid point, and I agree with it, as I've stated on Fcsuper's talk page. I originally planned to write the history section, and use the timeline to supplement it. Perhaps you could help. Viriditas (talk) 19:53, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I'm not interested in doing a line-by-line vote for each point on the timeline. Any point that does not have such context should be removed now. You can add them back as you are able to establish the context. This, in my view, is more proper to make sure people can understand this article. Right now, this just looks like a random list of selected events. I'm going to remove Elvis because that is way too localized and doesn't have an impact on burrito history unless there is a reliable source that explains how the Elvis burrito has impacted burrito history. — fcsuper ^{(How's That?, That's How!)} _{(Exclusionistic Immediatist )} — 16:13, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I think we have a failure to communicate. "Merging" means attempting to move this information into the burrito article, not deleting. That you personally feel that this information is not important is in dispute. As I said above with citations, these appear to be notable and important. Viriditas (talk) 19:49, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Questionable items that need addressing in 21st Century section:

2003

Charles Hodgkins begins gathering data from 170 taquerias in San Francisco for Burritoeater.com[18][19] How is this an actual historical point? I might as well add when I found the Timeline of Burrito wikipedia article. That's just about as significant. This also appears to be recentism from that period.

2005

Burritophile.com launches

This is straight up an ad for that site. How many burrito websites exist? Was it the first one (and even if it was, why is that important in a sea of millions of websites about every topic on the planet)? Did it change the course of burrito history?

Freebirds World Burrito (TX) starts online orders

This is another add. See previous comments about burritophile.com

May: A Clovis, New Mexico Middle school student creates a 30-inch burrito filled with steak, guacamole, lettuce, salsa and jalapeños for an extra-credit assignment project. The large, foil-wrapped burrito is mistaken as a weapon, and armed police officers are sent in, closing down streets and locking down the school.[20]

This appears to be recentism from 2005. This also is questionable as to its impact on burrito history. Did they break a record of some sort?

Jul: Rubio's (CA) Lobster Burrito lawsuit. Rubio's is accused of selling a "lobster burrito" that contains langostino meat from the squat lobster, an edible crustacean but not a lobster, raising questions about labeling lobster meat.

There thousands of lawsuits each year for false advertising. This is another point that appears to be recentism from 2005. Did the FDA force Rubios to stop selling burritos? Did this cause some sort of industry shift in burrito marketing or sales?

2006

Mar: Chipotle Mexican Grill starts "Don't Stand in Line " online burrito ordering system

Marketing programs start and stop all the time. Anyone remember Lucky's Three's-a-crowd promotion? This is recentism from 2006 in the extreme.

Jun: Ryan Goff gets prison term for Taco Bell burrito extortion"[25][26]

Crimes happen everyday in everyway imaginable. This is also recentism from 2006.

Jul 29: Moe's Southwest Grill (FL) starts annual competitive burrito eating contest[27]

Is this the first or most popular contest?

Rosemary Gonzales arrested for smuggling drugs inside Taco Bell burrito

See my previous crime comment

2007

Jul: Charles Hodgkins completes his 495th burrito review

This is not a point of time. It's a personal acheivement of one particular individual that doesn't seem all that important even at the time.

— fcsuper ^{(How's That?, That's How!)} _{(Exclusionistic Immediatist )} — 16:33, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Merge discussion

I've placed a merge tag on this article with the intent of merging the history data points into the prose section of Burrito#History. This does not mean this article should not exist, but rather it encourages editors to develop the history section in the burrito article and then redirect this article if it is no longer needed. Viriditas (talk) 09:31, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Notability of many of the entries on the Timeline of the burrito has not been fully established. May facts have no sources, many of the sources either do not support the entry, and many other sources are simply not creditable. A merger would be premature if it means that these entries should be moved over to the Burrito article wholesale. — fcsuper ^{(How's That?, That's How!)} _{(Exclusionistic Immediatist )} — 17:18, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Many, if not all of these facts have sources (and are already used in the article as references). There's a big difference between "not having sources" and not having a citation tag at the end of every sentence. A merger request is not "premature"; it is a way of encouraging editors to roll up their sleeves and write some prose. Are you interested in helping write the history section? Viriditas (talk) 19:00, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

See comment above. I like the idea of the merge in general, but I oppose a merge until a major weeding of the content here. Dohn joe (talk) 19:10, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Merging timeline data points means turning data points into prose in the history section. When we write prose, we use only notable points of interest. Could you give me an example of content that needs "weeding"? That would help. Viriditas (talk) 19:29, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

See new comment above, but I think my two examples are good ones for "weeding": Restaurant Xochimilco needs context, and Anna's Taqueria either needs context or the axe. Dohn joe (talk) 19:48, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Anna's was added here by an IP. I would be happy to remove it, but I see that that they are fairly notable in Boston and have won many awards. I note that the establishment opened in 1995, which was a watershed moment for Boston, considering that at that time, burritos were becoming very popular across the nation and eventually, the world. What's interesting, is that this article mentions that Anna's was directly influenced by the San Francisco taquerias. So, we are seeing a culinary torch burning with tradition carried across the country. According to many sources on this subject, Anna's is considered one of the best in this region and I'm not convinced we should remove it just yet. As far as the history of the burrito goes, the question becomes, does Anna's deserve to be mentioned? Judging by the strong opinions about Anna's[2] I would argue yes, we do have a significant amount of news coverage about Anna's that merits inclusion. Viriditas (talk) 20:10, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Restaurant Xochimilco does need more work. Peter Fox and others covered the history in the late 1990s, so I'll need to refer to it. Also, the date may be wrong. Viriditas (talk) 20:12, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

As for Anna's, the fact that it's covered in the press may make it notable in itself, but is it notable in the history or development of the burrito? Your first article shows that a place called Boca Grande came first by nine years, and this article says that Boca Grande is the oldest burrito chain in Boston. If any Boston burrito place makes the timeline, I'd think it would be Boca Grande.

On a wider point, to me, a timeline should really focus on milestones - important firsts, geographical expansion, new developments, etc. I'm not sure that one-off novelties like the Elvis burrito should stay - unless it becomes a more permanent thing, like a regional variant. All sorts of things that make the news (Mabel Johnson turned 108 today! Watch this squirrel waterski!) aren't necessarily notable in themselves. Dohn joe (talk) 01:44, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what your point is here. Boca Grande may be the first, but the reported claim is that Anna's is considered the best. It's a good idea to keep these things separate and evaluate them on their own merits based on the sources. Being first is one thing, having quality food is another. As for timeline guidelines, that is certainly something that can be discussed, but I would like to see editors doing actual work. For example, you made a significant edit to the main burrito article earlier in the year that requires cleanup, as you posted bare URLs and questionable sources to back up your content. So, while I appreciate your interest, it would be more constructive if we focus on improving these articles, starting with our respective edits. The burrito articles attract a lot of editors, but in the end, there is little improvement. I would like to change that. In the past, we've had problems with trolls and sock puppets, but hopefully we are past that and ready to do the hard work that is required. Viriditas (talk) 02:50, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Those first few edits were among my first at Wikipedia, and not my finest work, I admit. I'm all for improving the content, and I'll try to get in there soon. (I actually found some discussion of burritos in an academic journal - I'll see if I can work it into the article...) Dohn joe (talk) 06:37, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Support. One entry on any subject is enough, & it should cover all areas. Who could object to something as obviously sensible as this? Dick Holman. User:Archolman 02:29, 14 November 2010 (UTC)