Talk:Shakespeare authorship question

Edits

I have reverted the edits that were made today without any discussion on the talk page. Since this article is under sanctions as a result of the ArbCom ruling, major edits such as these must be discussed on the talk page before being implemented. Some of the edits I thought were justifiable, but it is too time-consuming to weed the bad from the good and so I just reverted them all. Tom Reedy (talk) 21:28, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Right, I had no idea all this history had been going on, but I probably should have posted my reasons here anyway. I apologise for that. It's a shame as I thought I managed to clarify a few points both for and against the debate. I'd like to try and reintroduce the edits which really just served to smooth out the prose and sharpen the arguments for and against, but will I just incur some wrath? --ElviraCardigan (talk) 22:01, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Introduce them on this talk page instead of the article. That way they can be discussed and a consensus reached about their suitability. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:35, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Tom, you misunderstand how Wiki is supposed to work. I explained in my comment to my change to the first sentence why the change was made. "Clarified definition--not all who study the authorship question argue that someone else wrote the work." They simply raise the question-- it is a question, not an argument. If you want to revert my change, and if your reasons are complex, you should explain them here before making a change, not merely reject my change as not having gone through a procedure that you have defined for this page. My change reflects the view of perhaps the largest SAQ sentiment today, as expressed in the widely publicized "Declaration of Reasonable Doubt about the Identity of William Shakespeare," at http://doubtaboutwill.org/declaration.

On related issues, the article mentions the declaration, but there is no link to it, despite the declaration being a key aspect of the current status of the Shakespeare Authorship Question. Also, the declaration clearly indicates that it is unlikely that Shakespere of Stratford was, during his life, a front for the true writer. This is because a main reason for the question being raised is that there is no evidence of correspondence on literary matters between Shakespeare and anyone else in his day. If Shakespere had been a front, others would still have corresponded with him on literary matters. The journalists of the day would still have mentioned seeing him, or trying to contact him. In short, the first paragraph of the article does not convey to a Wiki reader an accurate view of the Shakespeare Authorship Question. Jdkag (talk) 06:24, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I believe the misapprehension is on your part. Edits--especially major edits on an article that is under discretionary sanctions as a result of the ArbCom ruling--should be discussed on the talk page before they're made, not after they're reverted. You have been around Wikipedia long enough to know that.

Your points have been discussed on this talk page already, as you would know if you searched the talk page archives. It is unreasonable to expect that the editors of this page should continually produce the same explanations over and over for those who have not or will not search the archives. And if you follow the wiki link for argument, you will see that the word is the appropriate one to use. That point has also been discussed quite thoroughly.

We don't edit to "the largest SAQ sentiment today", we edit to the academic consensus. In short, the first paragraph of the article does indeed convey to a Wiki reader an accurate view of the Shakespeare Authorship Question.

The Declaration of Reasonable Doubt link goes to the appropriate Wikipedia page that links to the organization's Web page. "Wikipedia articles may include links to web pages outside Wikipedia (external links), but they should not normally be used in the body of an article." Have you read it? Nothing in it pertains to Shakespeare being a front or not being a front. And just FYI, there were no journalists in Elizabethan times who covered entertainment and playwrights, or anything else, for that matter, for the simple reason that there were no newspapers in that era. Tom Reedy (talk) 13:54, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Tom, by the term "journalists" I meant those keeping journals in Shakespeare's day, none of whom refer to having ever met the man. The problem with this article, which you control in violation of fundamental Wiki principles, is that you set up the concept of SAQ to appear unreasonable, whereas anyone who reads the Declaration of Reasonable Doubt understands that there are cogent reasons for the existence of SAQ. The SAQ entry should describe the cogent reasons, not the portrayal of SAQ "arguments" that you have decided are best suited to your purpose, which is to disparage the concept.Jdkag (talk) 07:28, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

"... anyone who reads the Declaration of Reasonable Doubt understands that there are cogent reasons for the existence of SAQ. The SAQ entry should describe the cogent reasons ..."

Please list what you believe those reasons to be that are not present in the article. Tom Reedy (talk) 20:45, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

The primary reason given in the DORD is that there is no "literary trail": Neither Shakespere nor any of his personal acquaintances left behind any personal writing indicating that he was an author, until the First Folio came out 7 years after he died. By claiming in the first sentence of this WIKI article that SAQ supporters think that Shakespere of Stratford was a front, you obscure the point that there is no literary trail, as the term "front" implies that some people during his time considered him to have been the actual author, which implies that there is evidence to this effect. If any evidence that he was viewed in this way were to come to light, this would comprise a literary trail and most signers of the DORD would be satisfied that the Stratfordian case had been redeemed. (By the way, Ben Jonson's poem in the First Folio indicates that whoever Shakespeare was, Jonson knew him intimitely. The lack of a literary trail indicates that Jonson was not referring to Shakespere of Stratford, but to the actual author.) Jdkag (talk) 03:51, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

For DORDers there is no literary trail. For historians and literary scholars there is. So it is a hermeneutic dispute. The amateurs won't accept what is standard evidence, and normative techniques for evaluating evidence in the courts of history. It is identical to trial law, where the crown proves its case beyond reasonable doubt, and tabloid kibitzers and authors of pop quickie theories misinterpret everything on the premise that all of the evidence has been tampered with. Nishidani (talk) 08:04, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Nishidani, my point is that this article should describe the case that DORDers make. After you present their case, you can provide the response of historians and literary scholars. If the case of DORDers is so poor, why do you and Tom insist on misrepresenting it? Present their case accurately before you refute it.Jdkag (talk) 15:53, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

It has described the case DORDers make. I don't think any of us has misrepresented Dorder misrepresentations. To the contrary we've made an effort to put their case more cogently than they have managed to do. We don't refute anything. Sources, that understand the subject Dorders don't, do.Nishidani (talk) 20:39, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I think we've touched the fundamental issue. DORDers would unanimously agree that this article misrepresents their views, that is, their "Dorder misrepresentations." I don't understand why people so antagonistic to those views can honestly think that they can represent those views fairly. The article's emphasis on the view that Shakespeare was a front is one misrepresentation. Also, burying main points, such as the issue of the literary trail, far down in the article is a misrepresentation. The DORD is 18 KB. This article is 137 KB. You could have incorporated the entire DORD and still had 120 KB left to refute it, and it would have been a better article. But if the authors of the article had really wanted to create an objective article, they could have summarized DORD in 2-3 KB, listed some of the main arguments for each candidate in a few sentences each, given in a sentence or two the view of scholars, and then provided links to external sites that give the pros and cons in detail. It would all be less than 10 KB, and it would be intellectually honest.Jdkag (talk) 22:17, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Do DORDers agree amongst themselves on anything, except that 'Stratfordians' are wrong? DORDers are overwhelmingly Oxfordians, and complain about the article, which the record clearly shos they have consistentlyb tried to overwhelm with their presence. But the article is about all 75 candidates not just the unfortunate de Vere. 1,700 people are a minute constituency against several thousand books and 'major' articles written over 160 years, and the fundamental premise of your own concern confuses WP:Undue synchronically and diachronically. Nishidani (talk) 07:05, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

The SAQ article should give an emphasis to the current SAQ view, just as all other WIKI articles cover the current state of an issue before covering the history and development of the issue. Obviously DORDers do agree on basic concepts covered in the DORD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdkag (talk • contribs) 10:24, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Again you fail to understand the key point. There is no such entity as 'the SAQ view'. There is a DORD statement representing an exiguous number of people which makes a few points, but basically whinges about de Vere, between the lines. To showcase the DAW(E)DLERS POV would violate WP:Recentism and WP:Undue.Nishidani (talk) 12:02, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

NOT TRUE! Everyone who has raised the authorship question for the past several hundred years has pointed to the lack of a literary trail, the lack of any evidence that during his life the man of Stratford was known as a writer. That was Mark Twain's argument. That is the main argument of the DORD. Proponents for de Vere add that de Vere's biography matches elements in the plays, a point that is only made in paragraph 11 of the 14 paragraphs of the DORD, and made in such a way that no other candidate is precluded. Don't point me to WP recentism or undue, when this article so flagrantly violates NPOV.Jdkag (talk) 07:30, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

NOT TRUE! Everyone has not. In fact, it was not a feature of early anti-Stratfordianism at all. However, it's fair to say that it has become one of the arguments and it is duly included in this article, as is the rebuttal that the opposite is true - there is an extensive "literary trail". So it is difficult to see how the article "violates NPOV" when it makes these very points. You make the utterly spurious claim that the DORD "clearly indicates that it is unlikely that Shakespere of Stratford was, during his life, a front for the true writer. This is because a main reason for the question being raised is that there is no evidence of correspondence on literary matters between Shakespeare and anyone else in his day." Nowhere does the DORD make any such statement. Everything it says is just a rehash of familiar stuff, including utter absurdities like the claims about the monument. You are making this up. Paul B (talk) 10:00, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

'the past several hundred years has pointed to the lack of a literary trail,'. Sure, right. A century and a half of fringe polemic now becomes 4 centuries of major dispute. Really!

'the lack of any evidence that during his life the man of Stratford was known as a writer. That was Mark Twain's argument.'

Oh come now. Twain's 'argument' is a hundred years old, and was pilfered from Greenwood, whose arguments were demolished in 1913. If you think that the huge amount of work done before, and since then, confirming the traditional, utterly natural link between name, place and author is irrelevant, say simply that scholars are dumb, while amateurs, seamstresses, people in university administration, lawyers, journalists, movie directors, a judge or two, a handful of writers a century ago, mainly yanks, know the hermetic truth. An appeal to an authority whose competence is spurious because specious, not even plausible, falls on deaf ears, as it always 'Will'. Nishidani (talk) 10:13, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

The subject of this discussion (which should be the sole subject of this page) has been how to present arguments of those who have believed that there is reason to question Shakespeare authorship. You prefer to exploit this page to disparage the people who have held such beliefs, rather than allowing this page to be a succinct summary of their arguments.Jdkag (talk) 10:05, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Post-Wilmot

Now that the Wilmot work is considered by Shapiro to be a forgery (though it was written on paper from 1790, and why wasn't dating of the ink attempted?), we may look to other dates at which authorship was first questioned. According to the web page at www.enotes.com/topic/History_of_the_Shakespeare_authorship_question: "In 1811 Samuel Taylor Coleridge expressed his amazement that 'works of such character should have proceeded from a man whose life was like that attributed to Shakespeare.'" That would indicate that there was questioning at least 200 years ago.Jdkag (talk) 10:16, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Coleridge may have expressed amazement but that's not doubt as such. In any case, that's in the context of the idea that there may have been more collaboration than typically envisaged. BTW, testing ink is not a simple solution. Iron gall ink does not carry evidence of age. Also, it costs money to do these things. There is no endless pot of cash for scientific tests. The person who conducted the paper examination simply studied the appearance of the paper. Shapiro does suggest that ink and handwriting analysis could be done. If you are willing to stump up the cash, I'm sure I can get favourable terms from Jean in our paper conservation department. Paul B (talk) 11:28, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

While making my draft of the version that eventually became the SAQ page, I tried to confirm this, which I could not find in Coleridge's works. Since it is attributed to the 1811 lectures, it derives, I presume from Payne Collier's transcription. Collier was a forger and certain parts of his notes are inventive, like erndowing Humphrey Davies with a knighthood in a lecture delivered before Davies got that title. In any case, R. A. Foakes's edition Coleridge on Shakespeare The Text of the Lectures 1811-12, doesn't appear to contain the remark. I also think that enotes is not a good source. Sometimes they update from wiki, which indeed had this quote way back. No doubt this will be clarified in time. Nishidani (talk) 13:28, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

That page is actually a mirror of an old Wikipedia page. The quotation is from "Notes to Shakespeare's works", iv, p. 56, from his 1811 lectures on Milton and Shakespeare, and was widely quoted in the early days of Baconism. Coleridge does not doubt Shakespeare's authorship, as the full text (from which the quotation is taken out of context) indicates. Tom Reedy (talk) 13:52, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Humm, well I can't find anything there that could be construed as an expression of doubt. My comment about collaboration arose from confusion with Byron's reported comments. Paul B (talk) 14:36, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I've never been able to find the first part of the quote, and I suspect it was an introductory phrase by an early anti-Strat who quoted Coleridge's out of context that was in turn quoted along with Coleridge's quote and then passed on unchanged, as anti-Strats are wont to do. They aren't very good historians, even of their own literature, regardless of their claims to scholarship. Tom Reedy (talk) 18:52, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, we'd better mark it down as one of the things to be chased up, and nailed down, since scholars don't seem to do a lot of the legwork on these issues one would expect of them. That lacuna in the meticulous attention of the genealogy of memes (to adopt a phrase from Nietzsche) is one of the strengths of the fringe theorists. Nishidani (talk) 20:07, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Page view stats

Here's a snapshot of the page view statistics for the SAQ page:

28 Nov 2011 — 1.3 K

28 Nov 2010 — 594

28 Nov 2009 — 457

28 Nov 2008 — 229

Highest number of page views:

23 April 2011 (FA of the day) — 34.8 K

25 April 2011 — 7.4 K

26 April 2011 — 7.3 K

24 April 2011 — 6.7 K

27 October 2011 — 4.7 K

Since September 29, the page has consistently received close to 1,000 views or better. I attribute this to the publicity surrounding the release of Anonymous (film). Tom Reedy (talk) 22:16, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Template question

See here. Tom Reedy (talk) 13:31, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Rt recent changes

Some of your touches may be okay. But 15 successive edits to an FA page in a few hours argues for the idea you want to do a general rewrite on your own of a page written collaboratively. I've been forced to make a blanket revert. Please, as by now is customary for this page, make edits one or two at a time (per day), limiting them to a manageable daily quota that will enable others to evaluate them, both in text and on the talk page. By the way, changing the lead to highlight your own candidate is not good practice. Thanks Nishidani (talk) 08:29, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

"forced to make a blanket revert"? Isn't this kind of revert the exact thing you have argued against in the past? A dozen edits is too hard to keep track of so you revert everything? "Customary for this page" is one or two edits per day? I simply don't know how to respond to such statements. Sorry. Smatprt (talk) 16:34, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I supported your revert per WP:OAS. Smatprt is a disruptive editor and their topic ban should be re-imposed. I left a note at User talk:LessHeard vanU‎#‎topic area participation review. to that end. FWIW, I encountered Smatprt in the course of my project, which is implementing WP:HLIST; they were disrupting a template I'd edited. Alarbus (talk) 08:58, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Well I've only looked at the very first edit in which he deleted a ref that acknowledges the posthumous rumours about Terence yet gives a fuller explanation in favor of another ref 40 years older with the edit summary of "ref for Terence with more complete info". The ref he deleted is an academic text specifically about Terence written by an associate professor of classics. You can read the relevant information on the page cited here, as it's too long to copy. The source he replaced it, while from an acceptable academic press, is a generalized handbook. Here's the sentence that he claims is "more complete info": "Terence is said to have lived in intimate terms with many of the Roman nobility, especially Scipio Africanus the Younger … and Gaius Laelius. Indeed there were rumours that Ternece was aided in his literary productions by these men; and Terence himself did nothing to stifle such compliments, as we may observe from the prologue of the Brothers (15 -21)."

While I recognize that editors' opinions about sources may be subjective to a certain extent, the source he replaced it with is demonstrably inferior, both in specificity to the topic and in coverage of the cited incident, and in fact contains less information, so there is no valid reason to have replaced it, and it appears that the edit summary of "ref for Terence with more complete info" is a cover to insert a more sympathetic source to the Oxfordian claim that Shakespeare was a front man.

I'll chase down a few other edits later today when I get time. Tom Reedy (talk) 13:31, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it necessary to chase all the edits down. The example you give from Terence is illustrative. I added that source because Coury has a very good discussion of this tradition (and by the way the alternative source's account of how to read the prologue to the Adelphi/Brothers is too slim to be helpful). The point is, one simply cannot edit well if one has to go, one by one, through a rush of a baker's dozen of changes. It is extremely fatiguing. As long as we all accept a kind of editorial restraint order on ourselves, and respect each other by making one or two suggestions here at a time, and not moving on until, if these are controversial, our differences are thrashed out on the talk page, I see no problem. There is certainly no warrant for extensive unilateral changes of the kind that occurred overnight. Nishidani (talk) 13:42, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

This is a global site. Overnight? I have no idea where you are, so this objection of editing "overnight" makes no sense.Smatprt (talk) 16:34, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I've looked at his third edit and I doubt there would have been any objections to deleting the term "coded" had he brought it up on the talk page, so I have done so, but the rest of the edit was not supported by the citation. Tom Reedy (talk) 19:57, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I looked at all of them, and I've harvested a few edits from the incident; good suggestions should be incorporated from all quarters. Apparently everything said about all the other candidates is perfectly balanced; most of the edits seem to have been made in order to correct the unjust manner in which Oxford is presented or to mark his ascendency in the Shakespeare pretender sweepstakes, which is really irrelevant to the topic unless it's specifically discussing the Oxfordian argument. Tom Reedy (talk) 06:50, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

No, it's just that the Oxford section is such a poor example of the main arguments, and is overly detailed for a summary section. I'm working on addressing those issues. None of my changes, btw, were major in terms of the overall article. Smatprt (talk) 16:34, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Get the main article in shape and then propose changes to the summary here on the talk page. As it is you're now copying my edits, which I did in order to glean the wheat from the chaff in your advocacy edits, over to the Oxfordian page, which is the reversal of the usual direction of influence. I understand why, because that page is terribly written for the most part, but if you're truly concerned about the manner in which Oxford's case is being presented that is the place to start, not here disrupting an FA article. Tom Reedy (talk) 17:19, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Autobiographical method

I may be straying into original research here, but one problem assuming that a writer's works are disguised autobiography is that there are 20th-century works which probably do contain some autobiographical elements but which are less straightforwardly autobiographical than some readers may have taken them for: I Remember Mama, The Corn is Green and Slave of the Huns. PatGallacher (talk) 10:19, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

WP:NOTE?

Smatprt, you excised reliably supported information with the edit summary of "deleting Frisbee due to wp:weight. Extreme fringe theories such as this don't belong in a general summary (or in the encyclopedia as per wp:note". Please read the guideline, especially the section WP:Note#Notability guidelines do not limit content within an article. There is nothing "extreme fringe" about codes and ciphers in Oxfordism, every alternative theory includes them. Ask Hank Whittemore or a few other Oxfordians who have written about them. Tom Reedy (talk) 14:48, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

He's just excised it again, without addressing the talk page, or, specifically, your note above. Now, since this is rather incomprehensible from an experienced editor, who knows the rules, I assume the edit is a request to edit war, dragging others into actionable reverts. I may be wrong, but since it is borderline vandalism, to persist in eliding strong RS material in the face of reasoned objections, I personally see no alternative but to restore the deleted passage. If you, Smatprt, wish to challenge it, please address your remarks to the talk page and find some consensus, rather than erasing that passage again.Nishidani (talk) 16:04, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Frisbee theory concerning Marlowe, Spencer etc is extreme fringe. No place in general summary or anywhere here. Smatprt (talk) 16:10, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

The first edit summary runs:

• 'deleting Frisbee due to wp:weight. Extreme fringe theories such as this don't belong in a general summary (or in the encyclopedia as per wp:note

The second edit summary runs:

• 'Frisbee theory concerning Marlowe, Spencer etc is extreme fringe. No place in general summary or anywhere here.'

Between the two edit summaries and deletions, Tom asked Smatprt to clarify, and suggested the guidelines cited for the deletion did not support the claim in the edit summary. Not responding to Tom's request, but simply persisting in a contested deletion on an FA article, using almost the same words in the second edit summary (WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT)does not bode well.Nishidani (talk) 16:15, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Asked and answered in my second edit comment, which clarifies precisely what extreme Fringe I was talking about (Marlowe/spencer/etc) since you were mistaken. So are you now saying that the belief that Oxford wrote Marlowe and Spencer is a generally accepted Oxfordian view? If not, it really should not be there.Smatprt (talk) 16:25, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

No. You (a) went ahead and redeleted information without answering the query on the talk page (b) failed to address Tom's specific objection (c) in coming now to justify the deletion after your discourtesy, you have just mechanically repeated the substance of your two earlier edit summaries. That is not an 'answer', it is simply a mechanical reproduction of a personal belief used to delete reliably sourced information. Nishidani (talk) 16:28, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

As to Frisbee, there is no orthodoxy to Oxfordianism or any other SAQ theory. There is an alternative candidate, and then numerous subscribers to the candidate coming up with their multifarious angles. Until we have RS that determine major and minor themes, any attempt to assert a 'mainstream' Oxfordian perspective against a fringe Oxfordian perspective is WP:OR. In other words, we can't take your belief as to what is fringe or not fringe in a very fluid discursive world (Oxfordianism) as authoritative. I hope that's clear.Nishidani (talk) 16:33, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Wait, wot? Is Smatprt saying there is an orthodox Oxfordian view? I agree, but surely he's not referring to the one I know. (And the idea that Oxford wrote the great majority of other playwrights and poets is quite common in Oxfordism. In fact, when he was a mere child he helped translate Ovid for his uncle.)

I have also reverted the Anderson cite and material derived form him. First, he is wrong; there was no "regular annual publication of new Shakespeare plays," "newly augmented", "corrected", or otherwise; and secondly Anderson is not an acceptable reference for an FA article. He can be in the Oxfordian article, but not here. Tom Reedy (talk) 16:56, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Of course it's very difficult to determine what is fringe of fringe. Certainly the "e vere" anagram claims are commonplace. Percy Allen identifies them all the time. As for the claims that Oxford wrote the works of other poets too - that dates back to Looney himself, as we all know (he says Oxford wrote Golding, Munday and Lyly's works). And Ward claimed he wrote Gascoigne's works back in the 1920s. Beauclerk's 2010 book Shakespeare's Lost Kingdom airily declares in his usual sweeping manner that he wrote Lyly and Watson's works among others. So this type of claim is fairly standard within Oxfordian literature. Ideally we should summarise this tradition. The difficulty is in doing so without departing from the use of RS for every assertion. At the moment the reference to Frisbee in effect stands-in for this repeated Oxfordian trait, found in many writers. If Smatprt could resist the temptation to try to delete whatever he does not like, I'm sure we could come up with a sentence or two which refered to the "e ver(e)" anagram theories and to the tendency to add other achievements to Oxford's already impressive résumé without using just Frisbee to stand for that tendency. Paul B (talk) 16:58, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Smatprt, I think you are labouring under a misapprehension. This is a comprehensive description of an historical phenomenon, not a reflection of the state of the art in a fringe theory. In describing any candidate theories, we must take in the RS evidence for the whole period over which an alternative candidate has been discussed. We must not allow the historical tour d'horizon to be unbalanced by recent fads or changes in opinion.(WP:Recentism) Nishidani (talk) 17:20, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Nishidani, are you saying that more informed recent scholarship should be given the same weight as scholarship 80 years old or more ?? For example EK Chambers dating scheme versus the dates proposed by more recent (and completely orthodox) scholars of Shakespeare ??--Rogala (talk) 18:33, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

You are assuming that Oxfordian scholarship follows some sort of logical progress involving increased knowledge. That's not the case. It derives from creative interpretation of literature to find secret signs. I suggest that you read Beauclerk's book, published just last year. According to your logic this should be the most advanced "scholarship" on the topic. Beauclerk's dating of plays derives from his personal viewpoint. Then of course we have the recent "scholarship" of Streitz, who dates The Tempest after 1604, because according to him, Oxford is still alive. The same applies to Ogburn, Anderson, Sobran etc. There is no connection to progress of knowledge in normal scholarship. For example, you can reasonably say that modern "conventional" scholarship has made definite advances in the science of attribution, which gives us good evidence about which bits of The Two Noble Kinsmen, for example, were written by Fletcher and which by Shakespeare. I can see no discernable way of saying that about Oxfordian literature at all. In any case, who decides what is "orthodox" and what isn't? There's no Pope. The fact also remains we are supposed to be giving an account of the whole history of a tradition. Paul B (talk) 18:44, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

In addition to Paul's note, I would clarify that we write about the alternative candidates according to what the predominantly academic, RS sources that treat this material say. Oxfordianism, secondly, is not 'scholarship' in the sense that there is no set of heuristic principles underwritten by all Oxfordians to determine what can and cannot be hypothesized, asserted or claimed. Oxfordianism is a congeries of individuals who subscribe to the theory de Vere is the man, and after that, each writer develops his own opinion. That is one further reason why, to cover the topic, we must resort to high quality RS, rather than use the eclectic, repetitive, infra-competitive, material thrown out year in year out by scribblers and websites, following which would be a recipé for expositive chaos.Nishidani (talk) 19:35, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Oxfordian theory section

I speak for no one but myself, but I am voluntarily withdrawing from editing this page for a week or so several reasons, among them these two:

1. To cut down on the constant disruption and argument and attempt to avoid the tedious dispute resolution process that looms inevitably in the future if things continue as they are going, with all the attendant topic bans and restrictions that go along with it; and

2. To attempt to learn, once and for all, exactly what is considered to be an accurate and fair summary of the Oxfordian case.

After a week or so I will return and hopefully learn what a neutral, comprehensive, and fair treatment looks like, and will make my objections--if any--known than. I would like to remind all editors of the guidelines for editing this page, as well as remind everyone that this is how the page looked like before I got here. Tom Reedy (talk) 18:19, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I will see if I have some time this weekend or next to work on the article as Tom proposes. Not sure how comprehensive a summary can be, but it will certainly mirror that of the other summaries. Smatprt (talk) 14:40, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

To me, a base of the disagreement is sources. If no anti-Stratfordian is qualified to write on Shakespeare, then either, 1) the "authorship" subject does not exist, or 2) the "experts" need to bring up the fact that the subject does exist but that anyone who believes in the subject has been standing too close to a cold-fusion plant reactor. I do not really have an answer to this problem, but agreement on sources seems to be where improvements to the authorship article will begin. (modified) Fotoguzzi (talk) 20:50, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Some trivia arising from a recent edit to the Oxford section: The original "The current leading candidate" broke the rule that an article should not refer to times like "current" or "recently" because the meaning of that text will be different in a year, and for some items it may be important to know what period "current" was referring to (instead, text like "As of December 2011" is recommended, see {{As of}}). That general rule is not sufficiently important in this case to justify the ugly "As of..." formality, but the new text ("Today's leading candidate") is not an improvement—sorry, I don't have a good suggestion (perhaps "In 2011, the leading candidate"?). Another point is that, per standard style, there is no space around an em dash. Johnuniq (talk) 06:21, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for those notes. I appreciate the input. I've now made an initial attempt to respond to Tom's request at the top of this thread. It's a bit rough, but its a start at at least getting the basic topics that most Oxfordians find important covered in a summary style format. To trade off for space, I've deleted some overly detailed sections that suffered from severe weight issues. I'll be adding additional refs over the next week or so. I also deleted several qualifiers and criticisms, as none of the other summaries contained anything like them. I look forward to hearing comments and suggestions. Smatprt (talk) 07:57, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

How about, "Since he was nominated in the 1920s, Oxford has been the leading candidate ..." or something along those lines. Tom Reedy (talk) 14:30, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I see I should have actually checked the article before posting! Tom Reedy (talk) 16:16, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• Johnuniq changed Tom's header to this section to make it more generic ("Oxfordian case"), but that made Tom's "you" above completely mysterious to me ("what you consider to be an accurate and fair summary", "what a neutral, comprehensive, and fair treatment looks like to you"). And Smatprt's response, as if Tom was addressing him, made even less sense. I just discovered from the History that Tom was addressing him. People who don't watch this page obsessively should be able to understand what's going on, so I've reinstated the original header. Please just change it back if you don't agree, John, or whoever else. Bishonen | talk 21:39, 16 December 2011 (UTC).
  • Creating a discussion section header that is directed at a particular editor, and his (apparent) cohorts, suggests some sort of mob mentality: there's a group out there ganging up with someone leading that must be addressed as such. To change this header, and give this group a label, may depersonalize it, but it also makes it clear that a group is recognized and states what the assumed alignment of this group is ('Oxfordianism'). Besides the 'us against them' this sets up, it further degrades the principles and ideals we'd all prefer to be operating under when editing this (or any other) page on Wikipedia. It suggests that all those who want to see a balanced article--one that gives readers, researchers, and scholars a good chance to form their own opinions on a topic--have a 'point of view' when they come to the editing effort (that they are all 'Oxfordians'). It further suggests that all those who take the contrary view to William Shaksper having written the works ascribed to 'Shakespeare' are also 'Oxfordians'; that by being 'Anti-Stratfordian' one is necessarily 'Oxfordian'. I will not speak for the appropriateness of this label when applied to Smatprt, only to say that I myself would prefer that you take care in applying such labels. Artaxerxes (talk) 13:48, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Your alarm is unwarranted. In fact all editors do have a point of view; the trick is to learn how to edit neutrally. Since all editors are human it is no surprise that they often clash on exactly how to do edit neutrally on a page like this while maintaining proper weight (which is often confused with "fairness"). I titled the section such because I wanted to communicate directly with him while informing other editors of my intention concerning this article. Tom Reedy (talk) 15:07, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I've returned the heading to the more generic title earlier adopted by Johnuniq. My basic reason is that the old heading breaks the cardinal rule - discuss the edits, not the editor, and continues the us and them feeling of this talk page. If Tom wants to leave a message for me, he should use my talk page as he has in the past. If he wants to inform other editors, he knows how to do that too. Addressing a section to one editor, and then adding 'et al', was just odd all the way around. Smatprt (talk) 05:33, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Article review

Thank you, Smatprt, for focusing on this. (Seeing your list of revisions on the history page for the article, I assume by reviewing the article itself I'm reviewing your 'initial attempt'.):

1. I wonder how 'and Shakespeare's authorship was not questioned during his lifetime or for centuries after his death' in the intro might be presented to make room for those who made seemingly veiled and revealing comments during and around the time of the writing of these works--and early notable questions raised (like Adams and Jefferson reportedly visiting Stratford-Upon-Avon and wondering at the lack of any substantial indication of legacy). Just inserting a word such as 'publicly' or 'officially' or 'formally'--or even 'unrecognized'--before 'questioned' might help.
2. I see no mention of 'group theory' of authorship--a growing view, even among Stratfordians(?)--or how it might address/answer concerns regarding individual candidates.
3. With his death came a will which mentioned no literary works; this might be briefly mentioned (it tends to be used more often than the monumental sack of grain to depreciate the Stratford argument).
4. When introducing Looney, it might briefly be explained why he was uncomfortable with the official story--as an English teacher teaching these works, finding it hard to square with official biography--and describe the technique he used to identify an alternative candidate (his major and minor criteria for authorship derived from the works).
5. Can it really be said, with support, that the Ogburns wrote their book 'To try to revive flagging interest in Oxford'? Maybe they wrote it simply to advance the argument without regard to then-current interest levels. If we don't actually know their motives, or can't support any such knowledge, is suggestion of motive best left out?
6. So many of the references are to Shapiro, a recognized supporter of the Stratford story. Maybe this has all been thrashed out sufficiently--in terms of quality of sources, etc.--and maybe he's the best there is on supporting key points, but someone so identified with one side of the argument might be heard from less in an article that needs to be so sensitive to POV issues.

Artaxerxes (talk) 16:00, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

The seemingly veiled comments exist entirely in the mind of authorship theorists. If there was some evidence that Adams and Jefferson had authorship doubts then they might be included. I expect there isn't or we would have heard about it. Expecting to find Shakespeare magically visible in Stratford is like looking through Canterbury shoeshops in search of Marlowe. Your points about Looney are valid, but they are already discussed in the Oxford page. A sentence might be added here. Shapiro is a reliable source by Wikipedia's standards. I think it was he who made the flagging interest statement, but can't recall his exact terminology. Paul B (talk) 17:48, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

'After the war, Adams was appointed the first US minister to England. In the spring of 1786, he and Thomas Jefferson took a six-day tour of the English countryside that included a disappointing stop at Shakespeare’s birthplace at Stratford-upon-Avon. The house was “as small and mean as you can conceive,” wrote Adams in his diary. “There is nothing preserved of this great genius... which might inform us what education, what company, what accident turned his mind to letters and drama.”' fromShakespeare in American Life: John Adams. 'Our presidents have always loved Shakespeare. In April 1786, John Adams and Thomas Jefferson visited Shakespeare's birthplace at Stratford-upon-Avon. "They shew us an old Wooden Chair in the Chimney corner, where He sat," Adams wrote in his diary. "We cutt off a Chip according to Custom." Adams lamented that "[t]here is nothing preserved this great Genius," with no apparent recognition that more might have been preserved if tourists had not taken away chips of the fixtures.' from "Slate". 'In April 1786, two American diplomats by the names of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson stopped for a night in Stratford-on-Avon; two tourists visiting the small town that was becoming famous as the birthplace of the Bard of Avon. David Garrick's Shakespeare Jubilee Celebration had been staged there seventeen years earlier. John Adams made the following entry in his diary: "There is nothing preserved of this great genius which is worth knowing -nothing which might inform us what education, what company, what accident turned his mind to letters and drama. His name is not even on his gravestone. An ill-sculptured head is set up by his wife by the side of his grave in the church."' from an (I just discovered) blocked site--but which seems to have the more complete quote.Artaxerxes (talk) 19:20, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, as I thought, there is no doubt, just disappointment that nothing has been preserved and that his house is, apparently, small (!). As I said, it's about as meaningful as expecting to find evidence of to "inform" you of genius by visiting Marlowe's father's shoeshop, or Jonson's family's bricklaying business. Paul B (talk) 19:54, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

A few responses to Artaxerxes:

1. I agree. The line in the lead should agree with the longer history article, which states correctly that doubters believe certain literary allusions as far back as the 1590s refer to such doubts.

   Note: I've made an addition of one line to explain the earlier doubts, citing to mainstream scholars. Let me know what you think.

   • While many authorship skeptics believe that allusions to a hidden author were made as early as the 1590's,[4] according to orthodox scholars George McMichael and Edward Glenn, the first direct doubts about Shakespearean authorship arose in the 18th century, in various satirical and allegorical works. [5] Smatprt (talk) 06:30, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

2. I've made this same comment before, which has never been answered. I suggest you write a brief section on the 'group theory' and its variants. The article is woefully inadequate without it.
3. this information is in this section of the article already: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespeare_authorship_question#Shakespeare.27s_death. If you have a suggestion for a wording change, by all means, speak up (or just make an edit).
4. Looney already has the largest single paragraph. Any more would throw the weight off even more. I think further detail belongs in the main Oxfordian article, not here. But again, if you would like to change the wording, feel free.
5. Whoever wrote it (the flagging part), its clearly an opinion being stated as fact. I agree we shouldn't look into a crystal ball to determine the 'motive' of a particular source. I would support removing that bit.
6. Agree that the article relies on one source (Shapiro) for too much. Anderson and Ogburn should be sources, but have been removed, which is odd since Wikipedia rules allow for proponents of a theory to be quoted as far as what they believe, and given their works were published by mainstream publishers and reviewed by all the major news outlets.Smatprt (talk) 05:53, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Marking the advent of the authorship question/controversy matters on the public/not private level: who can really say what questioning went on privately, noted in correspondence or diaries, shared between people at home or at the tavern (exchanges we might become aware of somehow in future). What's needed here is a date, or rough time period, when the public were given (verifiably-) published works that made them aware of the issue/question with (hopefully) material that might fuel their own curiosity or investigation. Artaxerxes (talk) 17:37, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

We try to stick with verifiable, historical facts, as represented in reliable sources, not as interpreted by fringe promotional sources. See WP:PARITY, WP:WEIGHT, and WP:SPS. In an article such as this, about a fringe theory that has been judged to meet the criteria to be a featured article, (well-written: its prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard; (b) comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context; (c) well-researched: it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature. Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources and are supported by inline citations where appropriate; (d) neutral: it presents views fairly and without bias; and (e) stable: it is not subject to ongoing edit wars and its content does not change significantly from day to day, except in response to the featured article process), and which also happens to be under ArbCom sanctions, it is not acceptable to merely announce an intention to make a substantive change in the article, whether in the lede or some other section, and then make the edit. Consensus must be gained on the talk page before doing so.

As far as bringing the SAQ article in conformity with the history page, if anything the influence should be in the opposite direction. This is an FA article; the history page is not even rated as a [[Wikipedia:Good article criteria|good article. Tom Reedy (talk) 18:29, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

In the face of endless complaints that the Oxfordian view is misrepresented, Tom proposed a 'period of grace', intimating that all editors responsible for the FA article hold off to allow the Oxfordian section ('an actual fair and neutral summary of the Oxfordan case') to be reviewed minutely by yourself and, I assume, others who share your views, and reedited comprehensively to the point where you would all be satisfied.

To judge by the quiet that ensued, tacitly all editors took note, and accepted this as a reasonable way to avoid edit-warring, and to resolve once and for all any chronic disagreements on the way the de Veran material has been presented. I for one was not happy with Tom's idea, but didn't object.

That was Dec 4. It is now Dec 18. Two weeks of absolute freedom to recast the Oxford section, without disturbance, interference or 'harassment'. What is the result?

(a)Minute tweaks to the Oxford section, that suggest you have no intent of substantively challenging the neutrality or comprehensiveness of the FA-approved section, as asked to do.

(b)A major Oxfordian alteration to the lead, Oxfordian because the point is Oxfordian not, for example, characteristic of Marlovian or Derbyite theory, from an RS that lags some 60 years behind contemporary scholarship. You have over the years consistently confused the Oxfordian case with the far more complex sceptic tradition.

(c)A long talk note after you were twice reverted for (b)

(d)A challenge to one of the basic RS, representing the cutting edge of modern scholarship, with the suggestion poor, non-scholarly sources, decidedly amateurish compilations by Oxfordian paladins resturn to the article, on the grounds that here the principle that we restrict sourcing to works thought significant by experts working in a peer-review academic milieu should be cancelled, in favour of any fringe source that is noticed in newspapers. Do or allow that, and the whole FA quality of the article will collapse, as WP:Fringe books and pamphlets flood back in to create the havoc of the earlier article.

In short, you ignored the generous remit Tom offered, twiddled a bit, and then started to edit the whole article, challenging the austere principles which got it past FA status. The effect was an edit-war, which hasn't happened here for a year, coinciding by the way with your suspension.

In my view, you've had double the offered time, done nothing requested, and simply returned to a generic challenge of the whole FA process and principles by a provocative destabilization of the article itself. You had your chance to fix the section Oxfordians complained about, and chose to ignore it, in favour of a rewrite of the whole article.Nishidani (talk) 10:01, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

While I share your dismay with the disappointing results of the Oxfordian makeover (which deleted any mention of the Prince Tudor theory, about which an entire Hollywood movie was made), Smatprt, nor any other editor, is not restricted to editing a certain section of the article, but he is obliged to follow the procedures for FA articles and the arbitration sanctions, just like every other editor. As far as I know, those requirements will never expire. Tom Reedy (talk) 18:37, 18 December 2011 (UTC)