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Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD

This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.

Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators and clerks may edit, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.

Motions and requests by the parties

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Questions to the parties

Proposed final decision

Proposals by User:Jayen466

Proposed principles

Images are subject to WP:NPOV

1) Images, like other article content, are subject to the WP:NPOV policy, specifically WP:DUE. In contentious cases, editors should make a good-faith attempt to base their selection and inclusion of images available for article illustration on the prevalence of the same or equivalent types of imagery in reliable sources on the article topic.

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Proposed. Editors are generally given wide leeway in selecting article illustrations. But while the use of images for article illustration is often uncontroversial, and constrained by the pool of image files available, in contentious cases reliable sources should be used as a reference point to decide what types of images to include, and how prominently to include them. --JN466 15:48, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This proposal is wrongheaded. Whilst reference to sources may be of use in choosing imagery for an article, it is not keeping with either NPOV or general WP practice to suggest that choice of imagery should duplicate what is found in a (hypothetical and elusive) average or typical source. NPOV is not a quest for an average. Our article on Justin Bieber, for example, does not have an abnormally high picture-to-text ratio and does not have washed-out love hearts in the background, even though these are things that may well characterise an "average" source on the subject. NPOV only applies to images insofar as they represent a "view" (ideological, rather than pictorial). What we are dealing with here, though, are views about religious preferences and about editorial decision-making, rather than views about the subject of the article. I would say this makes NPOV moot.

However, even in the case that the images are held to represent a "view" for the purposes of NPOV, applying it would not give the result intended, because an honest examination of sources would not justify the removal of any images of Mohammed from the article (of course, "honest" here is in the eye of the beholder and it is likely that anyone examining sources will end up concluding whatever it was they set out to). --FormerIP (talk) 17:08, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I see no evidence that images of Bieber in reliable sources customarily feature hearts (notwithstanding the presence of a few such images on fan sites). But if, for argument's sake, 20% of images in reliable sources were of that type, it would be entirely appropriate for us to feature one too, to reflect a significant aspect of his popular reception. --JN466 17:25, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What this seems like is that Jayen has already decided that there should be less images of Muhammad in the article, then goes out to try and shape existing policy to support that conclusion. To me, that is a backwards approach to editing. Tarc (talk) 20:38, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Given NPOV is non-negotiable I would have thought this was obvious... -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:02, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV is indeed non-negotiable, but the heart of this dispute is conflicting interpretations of what it means to meet NPOV in this subject area. Tarc (talk) 21:06, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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This seems clearly to be an attempt to craft Wikipedia policy around this one specific case. Actually, we've got well established, time-tested doctrine which is clear even here; what we have are a small handful of POV warriors trying to rewrite the rules or filibuster their opposition into submission, whichever comes first. It's ludicrous saying that "reliable sources" should determine image selection; our pool of possible images ultimately determines which images are used in a given article, and editorial consensus determines that. There is a majority view and a minority view on this matter in this specific case. The minority refuses to go away on the matter and has engaged in disruptive behavior in an effort to win the day. Seven-eighths of this problem can be resolved with three well placed topic bans, and the other one-eighth can be resolved by agreement among the remaining editors. That's the truth. Carrite (talk) 19:32, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTCENSORED and WP:NPOV

2) WP:NOTCENSORED does not override WP:NPOV, including WP:DUE.

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Proposed. This is stated in WP:NOTCENSORED itself ("Content that is judged to violate Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy, or that violates other Wikipedia policies (especially neutral point of view) or the laws of the U.S. state of Florida where Wikipedia's main servers are hosted, will also be removed."), but it seems worth restating. --JN466 16:04, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe any editor has suggested that NOTCENSORED overrides NPOV, DUE or any other policy or guideline. --FormerIP (talk) 16:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See diffs 5 and 6 in my evidence. The ideas expressed there appeared to suggest that following WP:NPOV / WP:DUE (i.e. following reliable sources) could breach WP:NOTCENSORED, thus assigning a higher priority to the latter than the former. --JN466 17:04, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, you are working from the viewpoint that your interpretations of NPOV and DUE, acknowledged on both sides to be, at the very least, novel, cannot be overridden by counter-argument. This is not the same thing. --FormerIP (talk) 17:12, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really understand where the notion comes from that it should be a novel idea for images to be subject to WP:NPOV / WP:DUE, or that it should be a novel idea for WP:NOTCENSORED to be secondary to WP:NPOV. WP:NPOV / WP:DUE has applied to images for the past five-and-a-half years, without interruption, and WP:NOTCENSORED has similarly for nearly seven years now stated expressly that it does not protect objectionable content that is in violation of WP:NPOV. Throughout this entire time, WP:NPOV has been non-negotiable, and has defined the neutral point of view as (1) representing views in proportion to their prevalence in the most reputable sources, and (2) as being impartial, i.e. not endorsing any one point of view in a debate as correct. Policy has always been clear on these points. --JN466 22:11, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

By definition, censorship is a violation of NPOV. So yes, NOTCENSORED does stand above NPOV as the latter is not sustainable without the former. Also, this statement implies that NPOV has a higher priority than NOTCENSORED. I respect your viewpoint on how to determine "due weight" (thus my own efforts to integrate into my proposals), but it is a fair assessment that your views on the matter have not generated consensus support. Reso lute 18:46, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The point, though, being that censorship is not a proper application of NPOV. An argument that goes "I have identified some sources on the topic of abortion/pornography/coprophilia/George Osborne and their use of images is quite different from ours..." is likely to not be an argument based in NPOV. In fact, it may well be the reverse, particularly if it fails to examine or care about the reasons for the differences identified. Claiming that your argument is an application of NPOV and therefore impervious to critique does not make it so.

On the other hand, NOTCENSORED does not override NPOV, because no genuine application of policy can constitute censorship. --FormerIP (talk) 19:10, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Applying due weight in an article is not censorship. It may feel like that to someone who is entirely caught up in a particular subaspect of the article topic, and wants it to be more prominent than it is in reliable sources, but that does not make it so. We have an easy and standard way of dealing with this: if the subtopic is notable in its own right, we use WP:Summary style and create a subarticle. --JN466 22:40, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Once in a while, an editor comes along and says that all sources are censored, and therefore we must allow him to present in Wikipedia the truth that is missing in the sources. We may even, in rare cases, sympathise with such an editor, if they make a compelling case. But at the end of the day, we tell them to get reliable sources to include that which they want us to include in Wikipedia, and to come back when they have done so. There is no neutral point of view in Wikipedia that differs from the view of reliable sources. Even if we feel that all or most of the reliable sources are "non-neutral", or "censored", NPOV requires us to present points of view in due proportion to their prevalence in these same sources. That's how neutrality is defined in Wikipedia. --JN466 22:46, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, NPOV is only operates where there exist conflicting statements (to be construed broadly - I am not suggesting that images are per se excluded) of fact and opinion about the subject of an article. What we have here are conflicting opinions of editors about how to make stylistic choices in the presentation of an article. NPOV has no direct role in deciding that. It is something we decide by reference to our policies (so far as they are applicable), our MoS and, in the final analysis, our collective judgement. You are failing to draw this important distinction. The New York Times may be a reliable source for information about Mohammed. But it is not a reliable model for the editorial approach to be taken in Wikipedia.

Secondly, we routinely deny weight to sources if we believe them to be censored. Were it the case, for example, that we were able to determine that 80% of all sources concerning human rights in China were produced by Chinese state media, we would not take the view that our writing on the topic should lean 80% towards what those sources say about the topic. Of course, we would scoff at someone wanting to include unsourced information on the grounds that all sources are censored. But you know very well that this is not analogous to the present case. --FormerIP (talk) 01:55, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's a matter of degree. If I understand you correctly, you appear to argue that all sources that do not show images of Muhammad (including Encyclopaedia Britannica, University Press publications by leading scholars like this one by Carl W. Ernst, and many other highly reputable sources, are censored, leaving only the minority that have numerous Muhammad images as acceptable models to follow. This of course is a handy rationalisation, as it means that all the sources that disagree with you are ipso facto disqualified from the pool of references. You yourself, rather than the literature, then become the arbiter of due weight. But how is that different from an editor arguing that all sources that do not give pride of place to their favoured theory are censored, and that therefore said theory should rightly take pride of place in Wikipedia? I simply cannot take seriously the idea that Britannica's Muhammad article (or for that matter, every sexologist or sex-education website that chooses not to show an image like this in otherwise amply illustrated works discussing fisting) is "censored" the way the Chinese state media are censored – in the Muhammad case, not least because there are plenty of sources attesting to the rarity and generally unrepresentative character of figurative images of Muhammad in Islamic art. My whole point is that to the extent that we do present Islamic Muhammad imagery, we should represent it in correct proportions, giving most weight to mainstream rather than fringe art. To summarise, what your line of thinking appears to me to lead to is that we follow your POV, rather than a neutral point of view derived from and reflecting reputable sources. I appreciate that you believe sincerely and passionately in what you are saying, and that it reflects your idea of what Wikipedia should be, but I don't think it's philosophically neutral in either the general or the Wikipedia sense. Cheers. --JN466 02:44, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not suggesting in the slightest that we should be dictated to by sources that reflect my POV. I'm suggesting that, in our stylistic choices, we should not be dictated to by sources at all. They can be useful points of reference in discussion, however. --FormerIP (talk) 03:04, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FormerIP: if we do not follow sources at all in such things, then how do we make such choices? 4+ years of near continuous dispute makes it clear that this is not some innocuous issue of style, but rather an area of fairly deep social and political controversy. NPOV and sources are what the project uses for content decisions about controversial issues; if you don't want them to apply on this controversial issue, how do you suggest we make these decisions? --Ludwigs2 04:58, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is a gross mischaracterization to claim that we have had "4+ years of near continuous dispute". The truth is that we have had 4+ years of occasional arguments by Muslims who do not understand that Wikipedia is not bound by their religion's dogma. We all know that those complaints are going to continue so long as the count of such images is greater than zero, and we all know that the count of such images will never equal zero. Consequently, those occasional complaints are not prima facie evidence of dispute, but rather evidence of the need to continually try to educate people to the purpose of Wikipedia. Reso lute 01:07, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Resolute: you are making a lot of bad faith assumptions and still agreeing with me that there is an intractable ongoing political and social controversy. So if we're not going to use NPOV and sources to solve that controversy, what are we going to use? --Ludwigs2 01:56, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is not part of Wikipedia's mission to resolve intractable political and social controversies. Some of our content may be controversial to some people, but that is not in itself a reason to remove it. --FormerIP (talk) 02:16, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nor is it part of Wikipeida's mission to choose sides in intractable political and social controversies. You are insisting that Wikipedia display images in a way that reliable secondary and tertiary sources do not: that is choosing a side and advocating for it.

Again, the question that you keep not answering is this: If we do not follow NPOV and reliable sources, by what criteria do we choose images in controversial cases like this? You keep saying that we can't let other people dictate what the project does, but you do it in a way that seems to imply that you yourself should be the one who dictates what the project does. That obviously can't be what you mean, so what is the decision criteria you are reaching for? --Ludwigs2 02:35, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can see, WPs content processes have been more than exhausted and a decision has been reached. Nothing is set in stone, and I'm not opposed to discussions continuing. But I am opposed to the view that there is a problem which needs to be urgently addressed by some policy innovation. There is no such problem. --FormerIP (talk) 02:49, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That is your fourth refusal (on this page alone) to answer this simple and direct question. You have asserted that reliable sources (at least those which you consider to be censored) should not be used, and you are using that argument to justify your claim that we should not rely on the image balance in reliable sources as a guideline for our own image use (because you somehow consider all such sources to be censored). If you are unwilling to indicate what decision-making process we should use instead of referring to sources and NPOV, then how can we take your opinion as remotely credible? As far as I can tell from your argument, you are arguing against NPOV not because you have a better proposal in mind, but simply because you don't like the outcome we get if we do follow NPOV. --Ludwigs2 03:12, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Again, should be obvious. Any specific application may not be obvious, but this principle should be obvious in itself. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:02, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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With hundreds of thousands of words having already been expended on this issue to date, the editors in discussion about these two workshop proposals should consider whether we must again rehash the "How to interpret NOTCENSORED etc" debate. AGK [•] 23:46, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- AGK: The only debates we have in this arbitration are the "How to interpret NOTCENSORED" debate and the "Why we should all hate Ludwigs2" debate (check the evidence page if you haven't yet caught onto that aspect of this discussion). The latter debate - while arguably more entertaining for everyone - is a whole lot less useful than the former. So unless you want us all to present our perspectives and then sit in appreciative silence… which come to think of it would be kind of nice, yah?
- Just sayin'… --Ludwigs2 01:17, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ludwigs I suggest you take a look at my evidence which does neither of those things. With regards to this, I think AGK has a point, there is little point in discussing this over and over. That said if the committee feels certain "interpretations" of policy are obvious constraining the debate to exclude disputing those points further would be helpful as per the abortion case. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:05, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ludwigs, the issues of interpretation of policy are of course central to this arbitration case, but my point is that nothing is being achieved here except to paraphrase the debate. We can already understand the dispute about NOTCENSORED and all its intricacies from the existing volumes of discussion. AGK [•] 13:07, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

AGK: Actually, I disagree - I think a clear summary of each position (without all the cross-argumentation) would be very useful, but if the choice is between not saying anything and rehashing the dispute once again, then rehashing is better.
Eraser: Yes, of course you're right - there's a third argument to make about the general refusal to communicate on all sides. I'm just disgusted by the preference for personal attacks over reasoned discussion that some editors are prone to, and it's bringing out my bitter, sarcastic side. --Ludwigs2 14:07, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ludwig's - its clear from the evidence that you are guilty of poor behaviour as well. Take the moral high ground. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:13, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Eraser, what can I say: anyone who wants to buy into the soap-opera material that's being entered as evidence is entitled to do so, and there's not much I can do about it except smile/sneer. As is the norm on wikipedia debates of this sort, a significant portion of the discussion is never going to rise above pure emotional whinging; I'm just marking time while that plays out so that I can ignore it as much as possible when I enter my own evidence.

What you fail to realize (and what I hope the arbs are sensible enough to see) is that at this point I'm more-or-less irrelevant to the discussion. Not that I don't have a useful perspective to offer, and not that I won't offer it regardless, but for the most part I'm consigned to the role of absorbing the pent up emotional energy of an entrenched conflict that started years before I entered it. All I've done is lay out reasonable and commonsensical perspectives and stand firm on them, and by that act of standing firm force the conflict into a limelight where reasonable editors (like you and Jayen and Hans) have a chance to weigh in on it. Possibly I should just walk away without entering evidence and leave it entirely to you guys; I'm of two minds about that. But either way, I'm more of an archetype here than an actual participant. --Ludwigs2 00:42, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this is the right place to go in depth on this issue. As I have explained on the talk page of WP:CENSORED, lack of images from any given reliable source is not proof that those images are wp:undue. Images in printed works are subject to quite a few editorial constraints, like space/cost/licensing, which aren't as prevalent for printed text. Because of WP:NOTPAPER (but also WP:FAIRUSE), Wikipedia can usually include visual material, including videos, that aren't easily included in printed works. The argument that lack of a visual element in a majority of printed works makes it undue in Wikipedia's articles is fraught with difficulties that don't apply to textual ideative material. I can give you quite a few examples of good (text-wise) MILHIST books that have very few and totally crappy maps. Does that make good maps undue in Wikipedia for those topics? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 13:58, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I believe Jayen466's point is that the balance of imagery is different in our sources from our article - e.g. they will include significantly more images of calligraphy rather than pictures. While the imagery as a whole may be constrained by WP:NOTPAPER that doesn't apply to the balance of different kinds of imagery in our sources. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:13, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposals by User:Eraserhead1

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Mentoring for Ludwigs2

1) As per ASCIIn2Bme's evidence Ludwigs2 takes it too far on many occasions, mentoring to give him a better idea of acceptable behaviour would in my view be useful.

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This is in addition to any other remedies that are considered appropriate by the committee. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:34, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mentoring is for relatively new but over-aggressive/eager editors that others feel can be a valued contributor if given a bit of guidance. Ludwigs has been around the block much to long for that; this length of time spent in the Wikipedia community has given him more than enough familiarity with norms and practices here. If Ludwigs runs afoul of those, that is his choice; he knows better. Tarc (talk) 22:53, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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I don't think mentoring can work for someone who is being disruptive with a self-declared expectation of being "martyred". See Resolute's evidence. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 05:37, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with above. Ludwigs2 has passed the point where mentoring would make a difference --Guerillero | My Talk 21:42, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I disagree and mentoring has been considered a reasonable option for editors with much longer block logs than Ludwigs in the past. That said of course the arbitration committee should be the ones to decide whether to take this point forward. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:39, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree in principle, but Ludwigs' own comments make it clear that he doesn't care about consensus or Wikipedia's policies. He's only interested in getting his way, or getting banned in the process. A mentor cannot help someone who refuses to accept that consensus can, and does, go against his viewpoint. Reso lute 23:15, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Er, of course the arbs will be the ones to decide, eraser; why did you even feel the need to tell us that? Workshop entries have commentary sections for parties to the case, arbs, and others. We're just here weighing in in our respective sections, not passing judgement. Tarc (talk) 00:34, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposals by User:Tarc

Proposed principles

NPOV and external advocacy

1) Adherence to a neutral point of view when crafting an article in the Wikipedia is of the utmost importance, it is what sets an encyclopedia apart from a newspaper, a blog, a think tank's publications, or any similar source where "X is right, !X is wrong" is the aim/goal of the report, rather than the reporting itself. As such, the project cannot allow its coverage of a topic to be affected by external advocacy groups. These groups may believe information should be presented in a certain manner, that some things must be withheld or treated with discretion. To allow their influence into the project and to affect editorial decision-making would compromise our drive to present the neutral point of view.

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Islamic prohibitions against images

2) Specific to this topic area, the religious precepts of the Islamic faith that call for depictions of the prophet Muhammad to be veiled or removed altogether cannot be allowed to affect, influence, or color the article Muhammad (or any sub-articles or others within this topic area).

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TL;DR

1) Several editors have generated an enormous and dense amount of argumentation in their drive to acquiesce to outside religious beliefs, in opposition to Principles #1 and #2. Some have been simply misguided, albeit civil. Others have been belligerent and vitriolic towards those who disagree with them. Some fall in between.

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Offense isn't enough

2) Wikipedia editors can never be allowed to purposefully add text or images or other media to an article with an express purpose to offend a race, religion, creed or sexual orientation. However, such material should not be removed from an article for the sole reason that it offends someone. When in doubt, assume that an editor who supports an inclusion or opposes a removal is doing so with the goal of bettering the project.

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Proposals by Resolute

Proposed principles

Wikipedia contains material that some may consider offensive

1) Wikipedia covers a wide array of topics, some of which will be sensitive topics to readers on the basis of religion, cultural belief, age-appropriateness or nationalism (among others). Such material is provided for informative purposes and is necessary to maintain a neutral point of view.

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Consensus exists that Muhammad should include depictions

1) An overwhelming majority of editors involved in the debates have agreed that images belong on the article, even if they disagree on the number, placement and specific image use.

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The number and placement of depictions at Muhammad already reflects a compromise position

2) The article has, over time and organically, achieved a state that sets it apart from the typical historical biography by: (1) Limiting depictions to a small minority percentage of the overall total images. (2) Using artistic calligraphy as the infobox lead image rather than a depiction (3) placing the majority of such depictions in the bottom half of the article, "below the fold". (4) Allowing for logged in editors to remove the images for their own account (Answer 3 of FAQ)

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Editors have engaged in battleground behaviour

3) Editors have attempted to polarize the debate into an ideological and religious battle, resorted to incivility and personal attacks and have shown a disinclination to acting in a collaborative nature, frustrating the community's ability to resolve this debate.

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Ludwigs2 has resorted to tendentious editing

4) Ludwigs2 has violated WP:NPA, WP:IDHT, WP:BATTLE, even in this very ArbCom case request.

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Ludwigs2 is topic banned

1) Ludwigs2 is topic banned from the area of Muhammad images, broadly construed, for a period of one year.

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Ludwigs2 is placed on probation

2) Once his topic ban expires, he is placed on indefinite probation, during which he may be blocked without warning by an uninvolved administrator if he resumes a battleground mentality on the topic of Muhammad images, broadly construed.

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I include this because Ludwigs has a history of "testing the waters" periodically and has shown he will not drop the stick: [1]. In my view, a one-year topic ban will only mean he comes back in 366 days to resume his crusade. That would not be problematic in and of itself, but there is no reason why anyone should have to deal with the monstrous waste of time his battleground mentality has resulted in yet another time. Reso lute 00:33, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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 ::::::::::Again, the question that you keep not answering is this: If we do not follow NPOV and reliable sources, by what criteria do we choose images in controversial cases like this?  You keep saying that we can't let other people dictate what the project does, but you do it in a way that seems to imply that ''you yourself'' should be the one who dictates what the project does.  That obviously can't be what you mean, so what ''is'' the decision criteria you are reaching for?  --[[User_talk:Ludwigs2|<span style="color:darkblue;font-weight:bold">Ludwigs</span><span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">2</span>]] 02:35, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
 :::::::::::As far as I can see, WPs content processes have been more than exhausted and a decision has been reached. Nothing is set in stone, and I'm not opposed to discussions continuing. But I am opposed to the view that there is a problem which needs to be urgently addressed by some policy innovation. There is no such problem. --[[User:FormerIP|FormerIP]] ([[User talk:FormerIP|talk]]) 02:49, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
+::::::::::::That is your fourth refusal (on this page alone) to answer this simple and direct question.  You have asserted that reliable sources (at least those which you consider to be censored) should not be used, and you are using that argument to justify your claim that we should not rely on the image balance in reliable sources as a guideline for our own image use (because you somehow consider all such sources to be censored).  If you are unwilling to indicate what decision-making process we should use ''instead'' of referring to sources and NPOV, then how can we take your opinion as remotely credible?  As far as I can tell from your argument, you are arguing against NPOV not because you have a better proposal in mind, but simply because you don't like the outcome we get if we ''do'' follow NPOV. --[[User_talk:Ludwigs2|<span style="color:darkblue;font-weight:bold">Ludwigs</span><span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">2</span>]] 03:12, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
 ::Again, should be obvious. Any specific application may not be obvious, but this principle should be obvious in itself. -- [[User:Eraserhead1|Eraserhead1]] &lt;[[User_talk:Eraserhead1|talk]]&gt; 21:02, 21 December 2011 (UTC)