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Border

Isn't it also the unofficial northern border between Azerbaijan and NKR? --George Spurlin (talk) 09:51, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is no border between Azerbaijan and Azerbaijan, and Murovdag is located in Azerbaijan. You don't see the names of mountains and rivers in Armenian in Azerbaijani names, do you? Besides, are you really going to appear once in the blue moon to hit and run as yet another occasional editor? Are you accompanied by an off wiki coordination with Oxi42 again? Tuscumbia (talk) 13:46, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Again with the denial of facts. If there is no border, why is Azerbaijan building a wall alongside it? And putting the politics aside, the area around the mountain has been settled by Armenians for hundreds of years. Getashen being on the north slope and some other villages I cant remember the names of on the south. This is the second time you accuse me of not being a regular editor. Is there rule that says that I have to edit wikipedia everyday? I like this topic, but unlike you, I'm not obsessed with it. --George Spurlin (talk) 01:37, 10 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody is building a wall. The wall you're talking about was built near one village in Agdam after Armenian snipers shot an 8 year old Azeri boy. I'm not obsessed with anything. I am a regular editor who contributes to Wikipedia. You are a new account most likely operated by a blocked sockpuppeteer. Do you know how many times I heard this and then those same accounts claiming to be unrelated were in fact found related to the sockmasters? Tuscumbia (talk) 16:26, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Presence of snipers and even a meter long wall indicates there is a border. Anyone with a internet connection can go to maps.google.com and see it for themselves. I can't believe someone who claims to have 2 masters degrees can be so out of touch from reality. As for sockpuppetry accusation, WP:AGF maybe? --George Spurlin (talk) 02:05, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What international law stipulates that "conclusion"? Since when presence of snipers defined a border? Anyone going to Google maps will see 3-4 Armenian users editing those maps. So, please don't be telling me about editable site. Rather concentrate on international law and community which does not recognized anything with those "borders" and recognizes territorial integrity of Azerbaijan. Being a casual editor, you must realize that regular editors do their work on a more frequent basis. Users like you who appear with ggod Wiki-editing knowledge can only raise suspicion of being a sock or a meatpuppet for other banned users. With an enourmous volume of socks of Armenian users such as Hetoum, Meowy, Anranikpasha, Xebulon, etc, it's not that hard to come to the conclusion. Tuscumbia (talk) 14:31, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So according to you, wikipedia should delete all Nagorno-Karabakh related articles, and all the people living in NKR should commit suicide, because they don't exist. I don't see how we can continue this discussion when you refuse to accept simple truths about the real world. Just because NKR is not recognized internationally, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. From now on I will revert to a neutral version. Let me know if you decide to come down from your holy mountain of "it doesn't exist". --George Spurlin (talk) 00:03, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I never said articles about Nagorno-Karabakh should be deleted, neither should the information about Armenian and Azerbaijani heritage of Nagorno-Karabakh be deleted. Where exactly do you see me saying Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh don't exist? They exist and live on the internationally recognized territory of Azerbaijan. If the de-facto regime which holds these lands under military control is not recognized by the international community, it can't be added as such in Wikipedia either. The version you're reverting to is not a neutral version. I don't see you adding similar names to the cities, monuments, mountains in Armenian which used to have a considerable Azerbaijani minority (before Armenian SSR was established, it was a majority) such as places in Zangezur and around the Lake Sevan, or even Yerevan. So where is your "neutral approach"? Please mind AA2. Tuscumbia (talk) 14:05, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Answer me this, do you deny the existence of NKR? --George Spurlin (talk) 04:06, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is no reason for me to repeat the same thing over and over. Please read my last response above and you'll find an answer. Tuscumbia (talk) 20:17, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your response makes no sense, you blindly deny the fact that NKR exist. Whether it's internationally unrecognized or recognized as part of Azerbaijan doesn't matter in wikipedia. We report facts and that means since 1994 Murdovag is part of the unrecognized border between NKR and Azerbaijan. --George Spurlin (talk) 08:10, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The "border" you are talking about does not exist and is referred to as "contact line". If the border had been established, it would have been recognized. Any military can force itself into the territory of another sovereign state and occupy its territory and claim there is a "border" and that doesn't mean there is that "border". That's why the common sense that comes from the international community states that there is no border. Please read my comment about Azerbaijani locations i Armenia where Azerbaijanis constituted a majority at times but were forced out and provide a response. Tuscumbia (talk) 14:21, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You have shown that you are going to blindly push your point of view, I will fix that anytime I believe you're not being neutral. Goodbye. --George Spurlin (talk) 17:50, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Protection

After checking out this history diff I can see there's been little but edit warring since September, started in November, got very heavy lately. I've protected the article. Please find a way to resolve the issues, also:

The Arbitration Committee has permitted administrators to impose discretionary sanctions (information on which is at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions) on any editor who is active on pages broadly related to Armenia-Azerbaijan and related conflicts. Discretionary sanctions can be used against an editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. If you engage in further inappropriate behavior in this area, you may be placed under sanctions, which can include blocks, a revert limitation, or an article ban. The Committee's full decision can be read in the Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2#Final decision section of the decision page.

Please familiarise yourself with the information page at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions, with the appropriate sections of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures, and with the case decision page.

--WGFinley (talk) 00:06, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wgfinley, dispute resolution would work only if the discussion is between long time established users. Most new accounts come to edit war and draw long time users into sanctions. It's a common practice now. Tuscumbia (talk) 14:08, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Which is why full protection is the perfect solution if it's a case of socking. --WGFinley (talk) 14:36, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Right, it would be, but you protected it at a version that a proven sock was editing for and is now reverted to by George Spurlin. Tuscumbia (talk) 14:40, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's funny how it's always The Wrong Version that gets protected. Admins reverting to an earlier version and then protecting is generally frowned upon (it looks like taking sides), I considered reverting it back to the diff I referenced given the relative little change despite 20 intervening edits but thought better of it. You can always do a {{edit protected}}. --WGFinley (talk) 14:48, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I reviewed your point on the sock editing, I agree, I've restored it to the consensus version from September before the sock got involved and the edit warring started. --WGFinley (talk) 14:53, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WGFinley, thank you. I appreciate you taking time to review the edits and history of the article. Tuscumbia (talk) 14:56, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WGFinley, just because a sockpuppet has been editing the article doesn't mean it was the wrong version. Removal of the armenian version of the name is a violation of NPOV. As for sockpuppet accusations that Tuscumbia has been throwing at me for months now, I asked him to have me checked, but he refused. I tried doing that myself, but it was also rejected. Also, I would like to bring to your attention that Tuscumbia has been topic banned from Nagorno-Karabakh subject not once, but three times for POV pushing. Exactly the same thing he's doing on this article. --George Spurlin (talk) 06:33, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't make content based decisions like you are arguing for. There was clear edit warring going on, another editor mentioned a sock was doing the warring, I agreed and restored the article back to its pre-sock edit war state. You are free to discuss the changes you think the article needs and submit an {{edit protected}} request. --WGFinley (talk) 06:54, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

George Spurlin, the thing with continuous sockpuppeting is that the same sockpuppet masters generate and use new sock accounts, eventually are found socks and subsequently blocked on a regular basis. It is evident that these sock masters are not planning on leaving any time soon and having been indefinitely blocked, they are forced to use these sock accounts for two purposes: 1) to evade the ban to continue to push their POV; 2) to drag the established users who had contributed substantial amounts of articles into sanctions. You are one of those several new accounts who have started the latest wave of edit warring around the same time. You may still try to fool uninvolved editors, but I have had a long term experience in these issues and my history of discovering socks of the same sockmasters is pretty long. I may also add that the very reason I had been topic-banned throughout my editing in Wikipedia was that I fell victim to the traps set by the very same sockpuppets I'm talking about, who start edit warring and dragging established users into sanctions (as a result, they get indefinitely blocked and established users get sanctioned, therefore clearing the path for more edit-warring by socks). Tuscumbia (talk) 15:20, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Murovdağ. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

As per NPOV, the fact that the mountain is in the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic needs to be re-added, along with the native armenian spelling. --George Spurlin (talk) 07:19, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral sources for the Armenian name.

Transcaucasian boundaries By John F. R. Wright, Richard N. Schofield page 93

http://books.google.com/books?id=-Cj9Xiu3OyUC&pg=PA93&dq=Mrav+Armenian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qp_1TouTNufUiAL5ovHTBw&ved=0CGgQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Mrav%20Armenian&f=false

Armenians and Russia, 1626-1796: a documentary record by George A. Bournoutian page 447

http://books.google.com/books?ei=qp_1TouTNufUiAL5ovHTBw&id=ZNptAAAAMAAJ&dq=Mrav+Armenian&q=Mrav#search_anchor

Armenia, 3rd: The Bradt Travel Guide By Nicholas Holding page 278

http://books.google.com/books?id=Epec69LGa0IC&pg=PA278&dq=Mrav+Armenian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qp_1TouTNufUiAL5ovHTBw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=mrav&f=false

CIVIL WARS OF THE WORLD: MAJOR CONFLICTS SINCE WORD WAR II By KARL DEROUEN, U. K. HEO page 147, 150

http://books.google.com/books?id=nrN077AEgzMC&pg=PA147&dq=Mrav+Armenian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qp_1TouTNufUiAL5ovHTBw&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Mrav&f=false

War and peace in the Caucasus: ethnic conflict and the new geopolitics By Vicken Cheterian page 324

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZJUHC4FyZBMC&pg=PA324&dq=Mrav+Armenian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qp_1TouTNufUiAL5ovHTBw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Mrav%20Armenian&f=false

The chronicle of Petros di Sarkis Gilanentz: concerning the Afghan invasion of Persia in 1722, the siege of Isfahan, and the repercussions in northern Persia, Russia, and Turkey page 71

http://books.google.com/books?id=5c4mAQAAMAAJ&q=Mrav+Armenian&dq=Mrav+Armenian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6rj1Tt6eF_DUiAL22dWMDQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwADgK

--George Spurlin (talk) 11:38, 24 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Neutral sources"? Are you kidding? Bournoutian, Cheterian, Gilanentz? Come on... These are Armenian authors who are likely to indicate the Armenian names in their writings rather than the correct names. Here is what I call a neutral source (SOURCE: National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, Bethesda, MD, USA ) if you don't like believing in legitimate sources of Azerbaijan where the mountain range is located: "as supplied by the US military intelligence in electronic format, including the geographic coordinates and place name in various forms, latin, roman and native characters, and its location in its respective country's administrative division":

Thank you. Tuscumbia (talk) 15:20, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 47: / Line 47: @@
 ::WGFinley, just because a sockpuppet has been editing the article doesn't mean it was the wrong version. Removal of the armenian version of the name is a violation of NPOV. As for sockpuppet accusations that Tuscumbia has been throwing at me for months now, I asked him to have me checked, but he refused. I tried doing that myself, but it was also rejected. Also, I would like to bring to your attention that Tuscumbia has been topic banned from Nagorno-Karabakh subject not once, but three times for POV pushing. Exactly the same thing he's doing on this article. --[[User:George Spurlin|George Spurlin]] ([[User talk:George Spurlin|talk]]) 06:33, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
 :::I don't make content based decisions like you are arguing for. There was clear edit warring going on, another editor mentioned a sock was doing the warring, I agreed and restored the article back to its pre-sock edit war state. You are free to discuss the changes you think the article needs and submit an <nowiki>{{edit protected}}</nowiki> request. --[[User:Wgfinley|WGFinley]] ([[User talk:Wgfinley|talk]]) 06:54, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
+::George Spurlin, the thing with continuous sockpuppeting is that the same sockpuppet masters generate and use new sock accounts, eventually are found socks and subsequently blocked on a '''regular''' basis. It is evident that these sock masters are not planning on leaving any time soon and having been indefinitely blocked, they are forced to use these sock accounts for two purposes: 1) to evade the ban to continue to push their POV; 2) to drag the established users who had contributed substantial amounts of articles into sanctions. You are one of those several [[User_talk:AGK#Rampant_edit_warring|new accounts who have started]] the latest wave of edit warring around the same time. You may still try to fool uninvolved editors, but I have had a long term experience in these issues and my history of discovering socks of the same sockmasters is pretty long. I may also add that the very reason I had been topic-banned throughout my editing in Wikipedia was that I fell victim to the traps set by the very same sockpuppets I'm talking about, who start edit warring and dragging established users into sanctions (as a result, they get indefinitely blocked and established users get sanctioned, therefore clearing the path for more edit-warring by socks). [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 15:20, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 {{edit protected}}
@@ Line 72: / Line 73: @@
 --[[User:George Spurlin|George Spurlin]] ([[User talk:George Spurlin|talk]]) 11:38, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
+:"Neutral sources"? Are you kidding? Bournoutian, Cheterian, Gilanentz? Come on... These are Armenian authors who are likely to indicate the Armenian names in their writings rather than the correct names. Here is what I call a neutral source ('''SOURCE: National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, Bethesda, MD, USA ''') if you don't like believing in legitimate sources of Azerbaijan where the mountain range is located: ''"as supplied by the US military intelligence in electronic format, including the geographic coordinates and place name in various forms, latin, roman and native characters, and its location in its respective country's administrative division"'':
+:*[http://www.geographic.org/geographic_names/name.php?uni=248723&fid=271&c=azerbaijan Murovdağ: Azerbaijan]
+:*[http://www.geographic.org/geographic_names/name.php?uni=-4851984&fid=266&c=azerbaijan Murovdağ: Azerbaijan]
+:*[http://www.geographic.org/geographic_names/name.php?uni=233154&fid=277&c=azerbaijan Murovdağ Silsiləsi: Azerbaijan]
+:*[http://www.geographic.org/geographic_names/name.php?uni=-3761914&fid=272&c=azerbaijan Murov-Dagskiy Khrebet: Azerbaijan]
+:*[http://www.geographic.org/geographic_names/name.php?uni=-3761913&fid=270&c=azerbaijan Murov Dag Range: Azerbaijan]
+:Thank you. [[User:Tuscumbia|<font color="#0000FF"><strong>Tuscumbia</strong></font>]] ([[User talk:Tuscumbia|<font color="#DC143C">''talk''</font>]]) 15:20, 27 December 2011 (UTC)