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On the title

Prague grosh or Prager Groschen, what is the common English name for the coin from Prague? Or the one issued in Cracow? Or in general, Grosh, groat, or Groschen? Let's ask Google, but mainly let's search the American Numismatic Society's curatorial database of coins:

Record contains: grosh No records in the ANS database match your search
Record contains: grosssi Search returned 5 records
Record contains: grossus Search returned 13 records
Record contains: grosch Search returned 15 records (added later, not singular of Groschen)
Record contains: grossi Search returned 44 records
Record contains: grosz Search returned 81 records
Record contains: groat Search returned 330 records
Record contains: groschen Search returned 2908 records

Record contains: prag Search returned 7 records
Record contains: pragenses Search returned 29 records
Record contains: prager Search returned 30 records.
Record contains: prague Search returned 485 records

Record contains: prague Record contains: grosch No records in the ANS database match your search (added later)
Record contains: prague Record contains: groschen Search returned 15 records
Record contains: grossi Record contains: pragenses Search returned 24 records
Record contains: prager Record contains: groschen Search returned 29 records

Record contains: kraków No records in the ANS database match your search.
Record contains: krakow Search returned 9 records.
Record contains: cracow Search returned 12 records
Record contains: krakau Search returned 61 records
Record contains: krakau Record contains: groschen Search returned 61 records

Sorry, but grosh is obviously a "original research" translation from slavic grosz, on the internet only due to the Wikipedia articles created by a few authors from, or due to ebay offers.

"Prague grosh" -wikipedia 137 Google hits (mainly from unreferenced Wikipedia content)
"Prager Groschen" -wikipedia 9640 Google hits

http://someoldcoins.org/saur/d/d203.htm Prager Groschen
http://www.geocities.com/new11world/Europe.html Prager Groschen

I'll change all articles. -- Matthead ^discuß! O 10:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're mixing Polish singular "grosz" with German plural "Groschen". If you want to compare it should be "grosz" against "Grosch" and Google gets you 2 million vs 1 million. What is English for grosz/Grosch ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lysy (talk • contribs) 12:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lysy, there are links given above that clearly show that Groschen is used for the actual coins, by American Numismatic Society and others, in English. Let's once again (Talk:Mikołaj of Ryńsk) assume good faith and apply Hanlon's razor for this unspecified Google search, comparing the Polish POV with a hypothetical "Grosch" that is neither a German nor an English name for a coin.-- Matthead ^discuß! O 22:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Lysy. And remember WP:UE: grosh is better then grosch(en) or grosz. And Krakau groschen seems to be unused even on German websites - complete OR.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 15:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Piotrus, see above, there is no "grosh" in English nor Grosch in German that would apply to the coin, these words are only visible from your own Polish POV that has introduced it to Wikipedia, as the article history proves. That kind of "translation" may have been okay for a stub to start with, but now you better accept the facts, no original research WP:NOR. Besides, in German, its Krakauer Groschen, but as shown above, American Numismatic Society calls it Krakau Groschen. -- Matthead ^discuß! O 22:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Only one German site used Krakau Groschen; it is you who is trying to force an OR Germanized name in English Wikipedia; please stop.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 15:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On Grosch/en
Incorrect assumption (singular Grosch, plural Groschen)

Groschen is singular as well as plural

1 Groschen or 10 Groschen-
Grosch is a made up thing.

The correct name of the coin is Prager Groschen

1 Prager Groschen or 10 Prager Groschen

Labbas 8 January 2007

Per Wikipedia:WikiProject_Numismatics/Style#Article_titles: Use the local name for the denomination even if there is an English translation. What is the local name of this coin?--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 05:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The usual simple tests

Google Print test:

Searching for "Prague groschen": 23 books in English.
Searching for "Prager groschen": 3 books in English (the most recent from 1945).
Searching for "Prague grosch": 0 books.
Searching for "Prague grosh": 1 book in English: "...the Bohemian/Prague grosh - a monetary unit...".
Searching for "Prague grosz": 0 books.
Searching for "Prague Grossus": 1 book in English.

Google Scholar test:

Searching for "Prague groschen": 2 results in English.
Searching for "Prager groschen": 1 result in English.
Searching for "Prague grosch": 0 results.
Searching for "Prague grosh": 0 results.
Searching for "Prague grosz": 0 results.
Searching for "Prague Grossus": 0 results.

Amazon.com test:

Searching for "Prague groschen": 7 books in English.
Searching for "Prager groschen": 1 book in English.
Searching for "Prague grosch": 0 books.
Searching for "Prague grosh": 0 books.
Searching for "Prague grosz": 0 books.
Searching for "Prague Grossus": 1 book in English.

Best regards, Evv 05:21, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Books in English

Trade and Urban Development in Poland: An Economic Geography of Cracow, from its Origins to 1795, by Francis W. Carter, Cambridge University Press, 1994, ISBN 0-521-412390, p.38, 67 & 75:
One of these currencies was the 'Prague Grossus' which the Polish king,...

...enjoyed by the Prague groschen (grossus Pragensis), unfortunately...

based on the Prague groschen (grossus Pragensis), provided a stable coinage...

The Price of Freedom: a history of East Central Europe from the Middle Ages to the present, by Piotr Stefan Wandycz, Second edition, Routledge, 2001, ISBN 0-415-25491-4, p.34:
...the two countries - where the Prague silver grossus and the Hungarian golden florin...

Best regards, Evv 05:21, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Prague groschen

Thanks Evv. "Prague groschen" it is, then. --Lysy^talk 09:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, this seems like the acceptable compromise (English locality name, local coin name, per our policies).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 19:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thats actually a thinly disguised vote for Krakow grozs. As "our policies" (pluralis majestatis?) are concerned, where were WP:V and WP:NOR when you created the articles, or in the year that passed since? -- Matthead ^discuß! O 12:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My pleasure, and yes, it would comply with WP:V & WP:NC :-)

If Matthead and Labbas agree on Prague groschen, I guess that we could do the move ourselves. If they don't (or if anyone wishes to do so), I propose to file a proper three-way move request at WP:RM:

This is not the actual survey, but only a discussion on what target the move request should use. Do not vote yet :-)

Prague grosh -> Prague groschen or Prager Groschen.

Survey - Move to Prague groschen.
Survey - Move to Prager Groschen.
Survey - Keep at Prague grosh.

This is not the actual survey, but only a discussion on what target the move request should use. Do not vote yet :-)

I almost always prefer a proper move request :-) just in case other uninvolved editors (especially German ones) may be interested in have their say. But I leave the decission to you, that have much more experience here than I do. - Best regards, Evv 00:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Go ahead if you with, or maybe Matthead and Labbas are faster with their support for consensus :-) --Lysy^talk 02:04, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First, I want to point out that we talk here Talk:Prague grosh while the article is at Prager Groschen, as Talk:Prager Groschen was write-protect due to an edit by Lysy. I filed a request to fix this at Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2007 January 12#Talk:Prager Groschen → Talk:Prague_grosh. -- Matthead ^discuß! O 12:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This will actually help with the timeline. Immediatly after a decission is made regarding where to unify article and talk page, I will file a proper move request to Prague groschen at WP:RM. - Best regards, Evv 12:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Second, I want to point out that a similar survey is going on a Talk:Kraków grosh. I want to have consistent results, e.g. Prague groschen and Cracow groschen (actually Prager Groschen and Krakauer Groschen/Krakau Groschen would be very well justified either, but ... ). I'm not going to accept that the Cracow coin, which was inspired by the earlier Prague coin, gets an "English" name that combines two slavic words, backed up with only one source, and the additional need to disamb between a currency that was actually named so only 400 years later - unlike the 14th century coin, which was named in Latin and became known in Western Europe and in English by the name German merchants used, like its Prager sibling, and many others. I'm sorry that Germany is not only located between the British Isles and Prague/Cracow, but these cities were as Prag and Krakau also part of the German-speaking Empires for quite some time. See the ANS database, it shows how coins were actually known over the centuries. Authors of modern books apparently often apply recent names for simplicity, with a disclaimer that explains the reasons which get overlooked in Google searches (I included the one of Francis W. Carter at Talk:Kraków grosh, stating also Cracow not Krakow).

I'm sure some editors of English Wikipedia are trying hard to correct what they perceive as problems - I've been told here for example that Germany did not exist prior to 1871. Or that Grosch is the German singular of Groschen. Or that grosh is the proper English term for groschen (any source yet, after one year? No! still listed as options in both surveys? Yes!). As the German and in case of Cracow, even English names are concerned, these get painted over as present local terms are falsely applied to every period of history for politial correctness, consistency (a.k.a laziness), and due to "home team advantage".

At the end, Wikipedia will join Britannica in falsely claiming that the Kraków grozs was called so since the 14th century! BTW, what currency was Judas paid in? Money from Rome, 30 Euro coins, as shown by 26500 hits for Judas got 30 Euro coins. Would someone please edit the Bible article? Wikipedians know better, they create The Truth which is then quickly spread by Google as the Word of the Lord. -- Matthead ^discuß! O 12:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 107: / Line 107: @@
 Thanks Evv. "[[Prague groschen]]" it is, then. --[[User:Lysy|Lysy]]<sup>[[User talk:Lysy|talk]]</sup> 09:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 :Indeed, this seems like the acceptable compromise (English locality name, local coin name, per our policies).--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|&nbsp;Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&nbsp;]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</font>]]</span></sub> 19:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
+:::Thats actually a thinly disguised vote for Krakow grozs. As "our policies" ([[pluralis majestatis]]?) are concerned, where were [[WP:V]] and [[WP:NOR]] when you created the articles, or in the year that passed since? --&nbsp;[[User:Matthead|Matthead]]&nbsp;[[User_talk:Matthead|<sup>discuß!</sup>]]&nbsp;&nbsp;[[EU|<font style="color:#ffff00;background:#0000cc;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;O&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</font>]]&nbsp; &nbsp; 12:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 ::My pleasure, and yes, it would comply with [[WP:V]] & [[WP:NC]] :-)