Talk:Brian McLaren

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There was a different article on Brian McLaren at Brian Mclaren, which I have redirected to here. The content of this article can be seen here. There may be some info on this alternate page that could be integrated into this article. Proto||type 11:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Spam

FYI - the critics section is turning into a spam fest. The purpose of the article should be to shed more light on the person/topic, not to advertise a miriad of critics. --Virgil Vaduva 04:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Critics cleanup

The Emergent enthusiast Virgil Vaduva continues to censor my article The Secret Message of Brian McLaren. He calls the article "spam." It is not spam in any sense of the word. It is a factual and thoroughly sourced critique of McLaren's teachings. The article portrays McLaren in an honest light. This is something that Vaduva is thus far unwilling to allow. So much for Emergent "toleration" and "inclusiveness." -- Dave Green  :)

The attempt has been made, as the entry by Virgil Vaduva shows, to silence any view contrary to his view on the information provided in this article. The censorship demonstrated by his removal of any critical references is against the very nature of Wikipedia and is more akin to totalitarianism. --

Before you continue to spam this article with links to obscure websites, please read WP:NOT - this article is an article about a living person, not a repository of criticism by a miriad of unknown people. If you do not like this, perhaps you may create a new article dedicated to the criticism of Brian McLaren. --Virgil Vaduva 01:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

If anyone has a problem with the critics links removed please speak up - most of the articles linked were to nonsensical obscure websites. I left one article linked to Christianity Today, which is written by the prominent Chuck Colson. Again, please beware of the Wikipedia rules before you add outside links which could be classified as spam. The main purpose of any Wiki entry is to provide information on a particular topic, not to flood the article with links to obscure critics and advertise such articles. --Virgil Vaduva 04:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I wonder why D.A. Carson's work isn't listed as "critical", since it is considered the main refutation of McLaren's work. Or a link to Emergent No or Christian Research Network (formerly Slice of Laodicea or Callies.com. Could it be because the guy who put together this McLaren entry either has no idea what criticism really is (since he normally calls it a personal attack if anything is critical of anything he espouses) or is it because he can't stand real, honest criticism?

Lastly it is anecdotally interesting that Virgil Vaduva is the main editor of this entry, I would have thought there was at least one other person in the world that idolizing McLaren even more than Vaduva, but I guess not. Roderick E 23:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Time to Chill and Think

I recognize the pattern here. Everyone is becoming overly sensitive to any changes made to the article because of past hostilities. Virgil, if you know of someone skilled in English try running the issues involved past them. I'm an ex-English teacher who has had several works published but you may question my objectivity (oops, objective is a modern term -- just kidding Virgil). Please thoughtfully consider the content and style of my edits. I believe you will see they improve the quality and credibility of the article you are fond of. Poor writing detracts from credibility. As written, it sounded like a college sophomore wrote it (sorry all of you editors, but it is true -- see my piece titled "Before You Contribute" on my userpage). The article still needs much improvement, but the changes I made are at least a start to getting a credible, well-written article on McLaren in Wikipedia, and isn't that what we want? We have time to hammer out a thoughtful, first-rate article if you guys would like to colloborate.Will3935 01:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Will, I have no problems with English corrections but you've made substantial changes to the article without discussing anything first. I don't really want to get in an edit war with you but let me point out what I have problems with: McLaren questions evangelical claim to certainty or ability to interpret; he offers no concrete hermeneutic (which is contradicted by your assertion that he favors a subjective approach to it); McLaren is an advocate of liberal social causes; postmodern approach to faith and practice. If you ask me most of your changes are inflammatory and negative...also inaccurate, purposefully using labels like "liberal" and "postmodern" to bias the reader. I would hope that you would choose the way of conversation before you change major parts of the articles without asking what others thing first. Maybe it's time to TALK and "colloborate"...I am chilly already. Hammering out an article doesn't start with tearing down the entire article; rather it starts with the existing article. I will reverse your edits and I am hoping we can continue to discuss, share and talk first. --Virgil Vaduva 04:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Virgil,

For someone who interviewed McLaren you seem to be suprisingly ignorant of his views. Stating factually what he has gone on public record as believing is in no way inflammatory. It sounds like you are personally vested in this article and are so emotional you have lost some of your objectivity (there I go again with that modern term -- just kidding again). I will try to compromise with you, but you must know that repeated blanket reverts can get you blocked. I'll be around for a long time. Let's work together in a spirit of give and take to create an article that is accurate and unbiased. That may not be how things are done on a personal blog, but Wikipedia is, of course, neutral territory. We will have plenty of time for me to thoroughly document any edits I make. Please respect my right as a Wikipedian to make them. If you think I have not sufficiently documented a claim you can ask for a citation in the body of the text. That is how things are done in Wikipedia and I am sure we will get along fine as we work together. I will be most happy to document everything I say from McLaren's own works. I have read his works and am continuing to research him. A Christian publisher has asked me to write a book about postmodernism and the Church. I don't say this to brag, but to illustrate my concern with your apparent lack of knowledge of McLaren. True, he speaks out of both sides of the mouth at times but he nowhere denies being postmodern and I'm sure he would not deny that others have considered him liberal. That is a fact that responsable Wikipedians cannot censor. Censorship of the facts does not belong in an encyclopedia. Others have criticized him and it is our responsibility to give both sides of the story. This is not a McLaren authorised biography, it is a neutral reference work. Anyway, I look forward to a long and prosperous collaboration. I think it will work. Again, I suggest all of the editors let their emotions calm a little. It seems some of you have hair triggers at this time. I'll get back to you soon, Virgil. I'll bet you're not as bad as those other editors think you are and I'll bet they are not as bad as you may think. Perhaps I can be a peacemaker here. We will all have to give and take.Will3935 04:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Will, I could not agree more with everything you said about constructive approaches to an article; I have offered a constructive approach to this article for a very long time but when tempers flare people lose sight of it. I did not see "constructive" from you however when you came in here to make mass edits; perhaps I am wrong but that is not what I observed. The "history" tab at the top of the page is there for a reason and folks can go back and see the edits you've made. Also, please do not threaten me with "blocking" - I don't know who you are, and I don't care if you have a PHD in English, if you write one or 20 books on Postmodernism or if you are a college dropout just pretending to have credentials. On the Internet anyone is a brain surgeon; I have never flaunted my education and qualifications here or threatened anyone with anything; I have never broke any Wikipedia rules so I believe you would have a hard time selling your "block" to the admins especially with my history here. You have reverted my changes as well, so the "blocking" rule applies to you also. Let's all give and take indeed and all be peacemakers. I never asked for anything else. --Virgil Vaduva 14:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. You are right about the credentials thing, especially in an anonymous environment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you mean (here I go deconstructing -- maybe there's hope for me yet) when you say you "don't care" about my academic and professional credentials is that you believe wisdom dictates that you cannot defer to anonymous claims to such credentials and I respect that. I'm fairly "certain" you did not mean that credentials are irrelevant. I have dropped my anonymity in the past in Wikipedia, but I have found that occasionally I encounter someone who seems just a little strange (I really don't mean you!!)and prefer, for that reason, to be discrete. Perhaps I'll talk to you without such anonymity on your blog sometime. I've done that several times before with other emergents and feel like I have made genuine friends with them. No, we did not agree on everything, but if one considers perfect agreement a prerequisite to friendship they have no understanding of the teachings of Christ. Anyway, I need to move on since personal discussion of this sort does not belong on Wikipedia talk pagees.

I will defer to your preferences even though I disagree with your definition of "massive" when you refer to my edits. I have over a thousands edits at this time so I think I have a feel for what most editors consider inappropriately "massive' edits. I find your understanding of that concept unusually severe, but that is OK. I will be sensitive to your preferences and defer to them. As I said, we have lots of time.

Sounds like I shouldn't have brought up the blocking thing. I wish I could take that back. I just noticed that your history contained alot of what you call "reversals." I took these to mean reverts which was probably mistaken. Even mentioning such things is inflammatory though and I should not have done so. I have no intentions of reporting you for anything. Admins just have their own ways of seeing revert wars. I was wrong to bring it up at all though. Sorry. Please forgive my uncivil tone at that point. Anything else I need to apologize for before we go forward and change our tones to nice ones?

I am open to correction on any point. I can be a little frustrating to those who have only read materials on one side of an issue (and thus, don't realize their own pov problems) and I can be aggravating to those who think they can write but can not (there are a surprising number of them these days -- a disturbing cultural trend -- and many of them make their way to Wikipedia). Obstinate, poor grammarians tend to dislike me even though I mean them no harm. Thier poor writing undermines the credibility of their own work and improvements on their grammar and style only serve to make their contributions more effective. I'm not prejudging you and saying that is a problem for you, I'm just saying I don't believe I'm so bad a guy as you seem to think. My cat seems to like me anyway (I think my mother does to). Perhaps the emotional debate you have engaged in previously has developed a conditioned response in you. It happens to all of us. I think Wikipedia is the perfect format for Emergents and Evangelicals to engage in civil give and take, learning from one another (what you call conversation). That does not mean that I will persuade you to my pov or you will persuade me. But that too, is OK. Wikipedia is not a format for personal debates. It is simply a neutral reference work for reporting the facts. If we leave pov aside there is no reason we cannot work together in harmony for Wikipedia's goals rather than yours or mine. Agreed? Friends? I'll take a little breather and let the dust settle. When time (I am rather busy at the moment) and health (some problems there too [sorry to see you are having some of your own]) allow, I'll do some more research on McLaren and come back. Maybe all of the contributors to this article will have calmed down by then (and pigs might fly -- just kidding!).Will3935 19:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Critical Links

The number of critical links is getting larger than the number of references....again it seems like people are using this article for publicity to their anti-McLaren sites and pages. I suggest mainstream critics like Carson, MacArthur and Colson should definitely remain; there are un-linked books with no ISBNs by people I never heard of. I will remove them until someone provides better references. --Virgil Vaduva 23:57, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Time to Study

It seems that Virgil feels if he has not heard of a book that makes the book insignificant. It seems to me it just shows how poorly read Virgil is and how he has not bothered to read critiques of McLaren. That is why you need us Virgil -- to help you in your blind spots (yes, apparently Virgil is like the rest of us in that he does not know everything). Also, we cannot help it if you are not familiar with epistemology and other crucial issues. Your ignorance should not limit the scope of this article. Furthermore, it would be nice if you would act more mature and quit picking fights. Can we at least try to act civil even if we disagree? Seriously, man. Even if you dislike others' edits they have a right to contribute (Virgil Vaduva does not own Wikipedia). If you dislike our edits try talking to us like grown ups do. You only hurt your own credibility and persuasiveness by going postal all the time. Try just talking in a mature fashion. I have had two emergent friends who did so and it was great. I'll bet you can do it if you try. Even if you feel a tantrum coming on just try to act normal. See what it does for you! Will3935 03:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Fine...I'll file a complaint with the administration. --Virgil Vaduva 04:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I welcome administrator help here. I don't know why you can not colloborate with others Virgil. I know my diabetes was acting up quite a bit when I wrote the above comments. I stll feel quite bad, but I would say some things differently. Forgive me. I know you have physical problems too. Perhaps they are affecting you. I recommend you get feedback from those you know and trust about your conduct on Wikipedia. Frankly, I'm a little concerned about your health. In spite of my diabetic - inspired tone, I believe my comments were quite true. It seems you do not realize the limits of your own knowledge here which makes me suspect you are a young man. The way of Wikipedia is for us to work together. Forgive me for pointing it out but it seems that you do not want to play with others. It's either Virgil's way or he goes and complains to admins who have their hands full with real problems. Why not try talking nicely to us Virgil. We can still make this thing work. By the way, I'm colloborating with some emergent leaders on another article right now and our relationship is just fine. If anything, I think the admins will give you a little talking to once they investigate the history here. Perhaps they will temporarily block mainspace edits for the time being. I would welcome such a thing since it would prevent further censorship of the facts for now. Eventually, it will come back to all of us editors trying to work together. It is unavoidable. This is Wikipedia where we have to learn to play together.Will3935 04:33, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

You have added 14 critical references to this article in the past 2 or 3 days, and there are about 10 valid references to McLaren himself as far as biographical information goes. This is nothing short of spamming the article with links that don't belong here. You are arrogant, you are flaunting your education with every chance you have and instead of stopping there you choose to take the personal route to attack me. What your attack has to do with collaborating on this article is beyond me. Since when is a biographical article on a living person a place to post more critical information than biographical information on the person? --Virgil Vaduva 04:44, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I guess I believe factual content belongs. McLaren is not ashamed of the truth. Why should we be? Anyway, I love you too man. Blessings on you!Will3935 05:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikification of 1980's?

Can any of the editors contributing to this article explain why "1980's" is wikified in it? I think that seems a little over the top and thus takes away from the scholarly tone of the article. Can someone give a good reason for keeping it?Will3935 05:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Organization

I think the article might profit from further development of its structure. There seems to be ony one section (biography). Perhaps this should be further developed into sections titled "biography," "theology," "controversy," and "bibliography." Anyone have any thoughts of their own about structure?Will3935 06:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Further reflection only reinforces my opinion on this. As it stands, the article seems a little stream of consciousness. I know some editors might consider a rearranging and restructuring (without change in substance or content) to be a major revision so we should not undertake this without discussion first. Nevertheless, I propose that it be on our agenda to at least consider how the article might be improved through a little change to its organization / structure.Will3935 07:06, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Proposal

I have asked for a third opinion from administrators in an effort to resolve the editing conflict between Virgil and I. This is not an accusation against anyone; it is simply a request for help that we might make this article live up to its potential. In the meantime, I propose a moratorium on further mainspace edits (except for minor, punctuation corrections) while we await the third opinion and see if that helps us. During such a moratorium we could discuss proposed additions, corrections etc. It seems a good idea to me anyway if others will agree to it (it will give us a chance to colloborate).Will3935 08:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

By the way, the photo of McLaren and Jones is an incredibly good one! Good job Virgil. Perhaps you can teach me how to import and paste photos sometime. I think photos are an important addition to articles but I am an old goat who lacks tech-savvy. You seem quite skilled at such things and I would enjoy learning from you. I promise only to use such a skill for good!Will3935 08:27, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Third Opinion

Immediately upon visiting the article, I noticed two things about the references. First is a bibliography section that is not cited in-text. If that format is to be retained, I would recommend citing them directly in the article using the Harvard style. Also, critical references and newspaper articles should be combined with the bibliography, perhaps as a references section. The seperate critical references, along with the sheer number, is troubling to me and raises concerns relevent to WP:UNDUE. I would recommend all active editors take a good look over WP:CITE and work out a consensus about which reference/notes format the article will use to combine and cite the references appropriately. Another thing to look at would be paring down the number of sources by removing redundant sources. These do not need to be entirely removed from the article if that is undesirable, as a further reading section can be easily created. I'd also suggest that his biographical details, his views and his critics' views all be under seperate sections. WP:MOSBIO, WP:GTL and WP:BETTER may all be useful references for improving this article. I hope this helps. Feel free to respond with any questions or comments. Vassyana 12:41, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your help!Will3935 13:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Response to Third Opinion

In response to Vassyana's comments I have pared down the critical sources list. I have seen this kind of list on other articles, but that does not make it policy. I accept Vassyana's observations. As to Vassyana's comments about coming to a consensus regarding which reference notes format the article will take, I defer to anyone else who feels qualified to address this. You don't need my "permission" but you may want to ask Virgil for his input / opinion. Also, I thoroughly agree with Vassyana's suggestion to divide the article into three sections. In fact, if you will look at my recent comments you will see I had already suggested the same thing. Not to boast, but I think I am pretty good at organizing materials since I have many years experience in doing this. I do not intend to bypass the community of editors in doing so. I will ask for your input and feedback. I think this reorganizing can be done without altering the substance of any existing content or adding any new content. I am quite pleased with the third opinion. If anyone has any further questions for Vassyana, this would be the time to ask. I am excited at the prospect of going forward. We are currently only rated as a start-class article (just one level above a stub). I think if we follow Vassyana's advice for improving the article we can move it up the scale a bit.Will3935 13:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I really think this restructering will help resolve editing conflicts too. If we separate "criticisms" (perhaps "controversies" would be better since McLaren himself would not consider a factual quoting of him from his published works to be "criticisms") from say biography, theology (he does have a theology), and ministry, I think this would seem more palatable to editors like Virgil. I'm excited about getting back to work. If anyone has anything else to address, let's get it settled now that we have Vassyana's attention so we can move past it. I think we can make this a first-rate article (whatever the top level is).Will3935 13:41, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Will3935

Will3935 you are completely out of control. You came in here guns blazing and are doing so far a hatchet job on this entry (as far as I can read and see). Please chill out and cooperate with other editors. --Frank Thomas 14:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input "Frank." As this is your first time making an edit on Wikipedia I suggest you read the manual and discuss any concerns you have with Vassyana. Please do feel free to weigh in on this subject with "guns blazing" (your term for diligence). You are certainly entitled to your opinion regarding the quality of my edits. Thanks again for the input! There is nothing I can respond to though unless you give specifics. As a first time user you do not seem to understand how Wikipedia works. We work together over specifics to make the article a good one and we certianly do not chastise hard work. Please stay around to help us though, "Frank"!Will3935 14:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Great! Thanks for the welcome! This is not my first edit on Wikipedia. You can click on the contribs link next to my name to see my other contributions or read the Wikipedia help page for help. --Frank Thomas 14:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Frank. I don't know what is wrong with me. Its early here and my diabetes is still acting up quite badly. I see that you have made several edits before. Anyway it is good to see that we have such a hard working editor weighing in on this article. Remember that it involves give and take to make a good Wikipedia article. Let's discuss any specific issues of concern here on the discussion page. And by the way, it would be good if all of us could maintain a civil tone from here on out, refraining from personal attacks and limiting our comments to ones that focus on how to make the article a better one! Blesings!Will3935 14:41, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Will3935's credentials

Will3935, as I have been reading through the history of discussions here you have made references to your credentials several times apparently in an effort to win an argument and silent cries of protests regarding your changes. Per Jimbo Wales' recent directions and to quote him,

"It's always inappropriate to try to win an argument by flashing your credentials...and even more so if those credentials are inaccurate" [1]

Therefore, would you please provide the rest of us with your real identity, your credentials and perhaps give us some more details about who you are and why you think you are superior to the rest of contributors and find it necessary to flash your credentials here while hiding behind a wall of anonymity. Thank you in advance! Hopefully this will help us all create a better entry for the entire community! --Frank Thomas 15:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. If you read the previous discussions you will see that I apologized for stating my credentials. I cannot reveal my true identity in an environment where I have been so vicously and repeatedly attacked. I have a family to protect. In other contexts I have discussed my identity with several emergent editors that I felt safe talking to. One of these emergent friends confided to me that personal safety concerns were the major reason he maintainded anonymity in most instances. Wikipedia is working on a way for editors to register their credentials while maintaining anonymity on the talk pages so if you are doubting my honesty, just give it some time and we will be able to verify my professional credentials.

Accusing me of thinking myself better than others is just another example of a personal attack. Why don't we all bury the hatchet? I see no reason for hostilities. In fact I am quite excited about your edits. Thanks. I have blended our quotes and thoughts together and believe we have made a good start. I think that from here on out we should limit ourselves to discussion of specific content in the article. There is a message posted at the top of this discussion page asking us to do so. Bad mouthing another editor with ad hominems does not enhance the quality of the article. I propose that from this moment forward all of the editors on this article communicate in a civil tone and observe all Wikipedia policies forbidding personal attacks. Agreed?Will3935 15:27, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Who is accusing you of anything? I just asked a question. Thanks for not answering; unfortunately Wikipedia now requires you to back up your credentials once you flash them. Perhaps an admin can step in and clarify this new policy and help us find out who you are so we can better understand why you believe you are more qualified than the rest of us, since flashing credentials implies that very thing. --Frank Thomas 15:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I would be more than happy to confidentially reveal my identity and credentials to an admin. If you know of a way I can do this I will gladly cooperate, especially if policy requires it. Can we discuss the article now?Will3935 15:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Organization

I think we have made great progress hammered out in the good old give and take of Wikipedia compromise. Good editing. The main problem that remains, as I see it, is the article is more than ever in need of organizing. Before I make any edits to this effect I would like to open the floor for discussion as to how we can best organize this material.Will3935 16:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

You could start by removing quotes that are out of context and purposely cherry-picked to make McLaren look bad. The edits made earlier by the other user were excellent and your changes to his or her edits illustrate very well what your real purpose here is, namely to throw a negative light on the article. I am glad someone else is seeing this as well. --Virgil Vaduva 17:42, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions

1. Cool down. Take a breath. Enjoy the day.
2. Avoid getting into an edit war. Wars just make messes. Consensus builds Wikipedia.
3. Avoid making article edits for now. Don't worry about whether the current revision is a "good" or "bad" version. The article history is always there for reference and any problems can be corrected by later edits.
4. Take the time off to consider article changes. Go ahead and make a new subpage on your own user page to use as a notepad for brainstorming your ideas for edits to this article. (As easily made as putting [[/McLaren Thoughts]] on your user page.)
5. Go have a Coke, beer, glass of wine, tea or whatever beverage you really enjoy.
6. Come back, review your brainstorming, edit and revise it.
7. Post your proposed changes to this talk page.
8. Build consensus.
9. Move forward and make a great article.

This is what I'd suggest for everyone. This is just my opinion, so feel free to disagree and take it with some grains of salt. But, I certainly don't think it would hurt anyone. Cheers!! Vassyana 16:17, 11 March 2007 (UTC)