Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Estonia

Translation of vald

The Estonian vald should be translated as Municipality. Commune is not justified. Andres 21:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

If I am right then the titles and mentions should be changed. Andres 21:39, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

• I'm not a native speaker (my grandfather is); I only speak a little Estonian, so I think I'll take you at your word. If no one has any objections, I think I'll turn all of the "communes" into "municipalities". Srose (talk) 13:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

In fact, "vald" translates in this context as "rural municipality". There are two types of "local goverments" in Estonia: "rural municipalities" and "cities" (in the constitution translation you are using: "districts" and "towns"). However, it's seems to be more natural to use "Municipality" instead of "Rural Municipality" in the names of the rural municipalities.

Earlier, here in the English Wikipedia, "Parish" was used, but "parish" is the counterpart of "kihelkond", a traditional unit. "Commune" is a unit of local government in general.

So, it's my opinion that "Municipality" is better. This a translation problem for English speakers, not for Estonian speakers. In the web, there are instances of both "municipality", "rural municipality", "commune" and "parish". Andres 18:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Probably the variants (except for "parish", which is ambiguous between "vald" and "kihelkond") should be redirects. Andres 18:15, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Probably the best nomenclature would have it as: Valjala Rural Municipality. It's the most unambiguous way, as sometimes a rural municipality and a city have coinciding names. Andres 10:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Shire is the correct English term for Rural Muncipality. Martintg 10:20, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

• I believe Avjoska is taking care of the commune-to-municipality changes. Srose (talk) 13:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it would be best to use the Estonian word "vald" untranslated? Rain74 21:41, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The official translation (see for example English translation of Local Government Organisation Act) is Rural Municipality. Local government in Estonia consists of Rural Municipalities and Cities. Kevin Ehaver 194.126.101.135 08:05, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

(Discussion moved from project page)

Perhaps the translator of the Local Government organisation Act had a Canadian connection, some provinces call them Rural municipality, apparently. Another online dictionary has vald<->parish [1], [2] Martintg 11:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

According to my Estonian-English Dictionary by Paul F. Saagpakk:

• vald 1.parish (= civil parish); (suure kihelkonna alajaotus) township; commune; 2. (võim) power;

Some say that Saagpakk's dictionary is a little outdated, but I believe other dictionaries have similar entries too. Legal definitions and common use definitions may not coincide. Martintg 02:25, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

"Parish" as a description of a civil administrative unit is archaic. The only correct term here is "rural municipality" because we are not dealing with a legal term as such. The term "vald" belongs to the Estonian state administration and they have decided on the English translation. For example, the only translation in English of "Eesti Päästeamet" is "Estonian Rescue Board" despite the fact that a more sensible word to replace "Board" would be "Agency" or "Authority". If the official translation used is unclear an explanatory sentence can be added but, in the case of "Rural Municipality", this is in my view not necessary. Kevin Ehaver 84.50.91.222 13:34, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've corresponded with an linguist based at Helsinki University and he basically confirms we must stick with the official translation regardless if the words are being used unusually in standard english. He cites a similar situation in Finnish, where the official translation of "kunta" as municipality and rural municipalities are thus officially translated as "non-urban municipalities". So what in your view be preferable as an article title: Xxxxxx Rural Municipality or Rural Municipality of Xxxxxx, or can we just name it Xxxxxx Municipality and add "Rural" as a qualifier if there is also an urban municipaility of the same name? Martintg 02:34, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• Kummalisel kombel on kõik Lääne-Viru vallad commune'ideks tõlgitud. Artiklid paistavad olemas olevat ainult Kadrina Commune'i ja Tapa Commune'i jaoks. Seda tõlketava ei paista muudes maakondades järgitavat; võimalik, et Lääne-Viru artikliseeria autor on saanud olulisi mõjutusi Rootsi administratiivjaotusest.

Ilmselgelt on niimoodi paha. Tuleks välja töötada üks ilus terminisüsteem ja seda konsistentselt kasutada. Praegu paistab domineeriv 'valla' tõlge olevat rural municipality, mis on omamoodi jabur, aga võrdlemisi täpne. Kadrina Commune ja Tapa Commune paistab olevat mõistlik ümber nimetada / mergeda Kadrina'ks ja Tapa'ks; teine on natuke problemaatilisem, kui esimene. Edasise diskussiooni jaoks on tõenäoliselt kõige mõistlikum koht Talk:Lääne-Viru County. Digwuren 17:11, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Ma olen kusakilt kuulnud ka tõlget "vald"="parish".--Staberinde 15:17, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Iseenesest pole paha, aga kas see pigem et:kihelkond ei ole?

Teine tore alternatiiv, aga vist mitte eriti populaarne, on townland. Digwuren 15:23, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Outside view, taken from Talk:Vaivara Commune, I hope that Martintg has not anything aganist being quoted by me:

I think "parish" is the correct english word for "vald" [3] [4], "parish" is certainly used in England and Australia in the context of a rural municipality. Martintg 05:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

--.Staberinde 16:25, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll take parish as the concensus, and will over time systematically change all the different variants accordingly. I'll keep the existing "Foovara Commune" pages as redirects. Digwuren 12:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The official translation (see for example English translation of Local Government Organisation Act) is Rural Municipality. Local government in Estonia consists of Rural Municipalities and Cities. As an Estonian Civil Servant I always used "municipality" because it is shorter, specifying "rural" where the context demanded it. Kevin Ehaver 194.126.101.134 07:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Moved to talk page. Martintg 02:31, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

yep, I've heard that Commune is a dirty word in Estonian that makes people's faces flashing red, so it's not such a good idea to used it.--Termer 09:15, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, on a big public map on the island of Muhu it said Muhu parish. Parish is a word that implies, that the municipal unit is formed around a church, witch may be untrue in some cases, but i believe its a better translation than anything else...--Alexia Death 20:59, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Romeo

Hello, Estonia!

Why was Romeo, a disambiguation page, given one of your project templates? I've removed it, but if there's a reason for it, perhaps you could explain at the talk page? AndyJones 12:15, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, my bad - apparently script got the wrong page. Thanks for removing it. DLX 12:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Super, thanks. AndyJones 12:41, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

WP-EE awards for best contributors...

Since we have recently had some great contributions from some users I felt it would be great if we had a some sort of (semi)official recognition award for them. so I drew this:

Please let me know what you think... --Alexia Death 12:46, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I like the look of the award. Andres 10:17, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

So do I. How does it scale? Typical barnstars are smaller.

Aga Suur Papist Kuldauraha kuluks ka ära. Tegelikult vist isegi kaks; Vesipruule leiab Wikipediast Tatikaist rohkem. Digwuren 16:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

It is a svg. It scales perfectly by nature:) example:

--Alexia Death 17:22, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

BTW: Size can be made to indicate rank.

I like it. Tipp-topp. biggins 02:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The image looks very nice and the idea of the WPE barnstar is great. However, to avoid confusion, only one size should be used - for example, some editors with many barnstars keep them in a table, displaying only a small image and link. Most used size for barnstar images seems to be around 110x110 to 128x128. Alexia, would you design rest of the barnstar template as well?

And Digwuren: no. Wikipedia does not work that way.

DLX 06:53, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Digwurren: honey not vinegar ;)

DLX: I can do it if you pont my nose to the right direction in making templates... Ive never done one...--Alexia Death 10:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I've never done any as well, except minor changes - but Help:Template is what you need, I think. DLX 15:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Looking good! the only thought I have is regarding possible symbolism. The way Hirundo is heading down-backwards from-right-to-left direction might symbolize pessimism even though the line of action is vertically upwards, the head is directed lower and down. There is directional symbolism in every culture and in the western tradition as we read from right to left, every picture has a meaning how silhouettes are directed according to it. it might look weird though in case the head was directed up-right. But I'd play around with it and see if you could get it saying, we going forward and higher instead of back&down like the silhouette of the bird is telling me now.--Termer 16:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Is it better now?--Alexia Death 18:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

this is my template making test

moved below

--Alexia Death 19:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

This template making is easyer than I thought. feel free to improve ;)

Template:Wp-ee contrib award , heres a shortcut to the template for you.--Alexia Death 19:20, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Wou, flying upwards looks much better then I expected. I love it! There are 2 little things that I'm not too sure of. I'd try how it looks if the wings had some air between the circle. Now they are just about touching it. Usually you'd leave some space there or vice versa, overlap the shapes I think. The distance should be perhaps similar to the white spaces between the leaves for ex of a third or 2 thirds of it. And perhaps, the flag up there, if it wasnt as wide as the circle itself maybe wouldn't feel that “heavy” up there and would make a nice offset perhaps if it was a little narrower. See if you have time to play around with those 2 things if you think it's worth it. Otherwise looking much better i think.--Termer 07:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I know I am too fond of shadows, and I am designer with bad taste, but here are my mods: :)

The look of the award is very good! good job! but the scales could maybe also tell what are the differences of the different sizes and why one person gets bigger size award than the other. i think it could be explained within the award. Also, i think the different sizes are good. they just need explanations. Avjoska 08:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I like the shadows on the lower part but I tend to to agree with Digwurren on the flag. Ill do something with it and lets see how that goes. --Alexia Death 21:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Thats looking good indeed! maybe the swallow ended up a bit too small, I might scale it up just a bit but other than that, very nice! Shadows and highlights are also nicely added!--Termer 09:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I like the shadow effect on the round part, but it looks somehow "dirty" on the upper, flag part. Digwuren 17:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

..But then again, instead of scaling the swallow up a bit , you might choose to do something with this plain white circle now, anyway, I'm sure you know what I mean. Good Work!--Termer 09:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC) ...OK, just one more idea. What if the shadows and highlights were added horizontally to the flag part. Now the blue and white are curving separately. If horizontal then it would simplify it a bit the flag would remain more like a one shape. Anyway, just a thought...--Termer 09:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

How about this?--Alexia Death 21:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC) Hi Alexia, if it was up to me, out of the last 2 versions, I'd choose the previous one.-Termer

I prefer the latter one; largely due to the 'dirty look' issue I moaned about above. Digwuren 08:43, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Hello Alexia, there must be thousands of Barn-star designs, so I wouldn't agonise over the design of one award. I like them all. Martintg 23:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi Alexia, once you're on it, I'd request another one from you. "Outstanding Soviet Censor Barn-star" for editors that have pushed the Soviet POV the most on articles related to the Baltic countries. I have a coupler of editors on my list already that I think have earned it big time...--Termer 08:57, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I think I know who you mean... But, alas, someone can take that the wrong way... Like as an encouragement to keep going :P...--Alexia Death 18:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

So lets declare this current form of the image final? Any suggestions for template or is it time to give it out to people?--Alexia Death 18:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

WP-EE award template discussion

Sample:

Award of the Soaring Swallow to {{{recipient}}} for outstanding contributions to Estonia-related articles {{{date}}} from WikiProject Estonia {{{signatures}}}

I think that barnstar should have a fixed width and somewhat more informative message - perhaps also separate image and text part of the barnstar? I'd like to fool around with the layout a bit tomorrow, if you don't mind? DLX 20:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

the template is yours to mess with:)--Alexia Death 10:40, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, did some changes... used (crappy) HTML, though. I am most definitely not dead set on this design, especially colors - but it does stand out better, imho. DLX 11:11, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Ill take a look at it too.--Alexia Death 12:07, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

What do you think of the changes?--Alexia Death 12:16, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Looks very nice, the rounding was a bit overkill - and would have been visible only on Mozilla-based browsers anyway. DLX 13:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Eesti Maapäeva Nõukogu

Hi guys, it seems we have a little situation here. 'Eesti Maapäeva Nõukogu', the one that issued the Estonian Declaration of Independence on 24 February 1918 is also translated as Estonian National Council, at least thats the way it is on President of Estonia web page. http://www.president.ee/en/estonia/ will do some research to sort it out but it seems since it's on the president web page, it's official and our Swedish Estonian friends would need to come up with a new aricle on wiki, I'd suggest Estonian National Council in Sweden. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Termer (talk • contribs) 11:20, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Reviving Effort of the Month

While cleaning up the project page, I thought about Effort of the Month section. I think it would be a good idea to start doing those again - with the goal of getting one article every month to featured article status, or, if that is perhaps an overkill, at least try to get one article every month to be listed as good article. Also, perhaps we could do an "Effort of the Week" type things where we try to get newly created articles to Did you know section - and, I do think we should try to get some Estonia-related pictures to featured status as well.

Now, as for current (July 2007) candidate - Estonia in World War II by Termer (talk · contribs) - that seems to be perhaps best candidate for WP:DYK (we have until 8th July to nominate it) and later it has a good chance for WP:GA or WP:FA. It needs cleaning up and expanding a bit (especially wikifying), but Termer has done an excellent work with it.

And as for the month of August - I noticed that we don't have an article Culture of Estonia, which, imho, is badly needed - as a sort of main article about all the stubs/articles about theaters, movies, bands etc, but also giving a historical overview of Estonian culture.

DLX 06:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

More formal approach giving out WP-EE awards?

Ive had an idea that perhaps we should take a bit more formal approach to giving out our award. I was thinking that having an official list of people who have been awarded with it along with the reason and a formal procedure for nominating a person for an award and requiring at least two more support votes from within the project would give the award more weight and value... What do you think? --Alexia Death 21:07, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

It's an interesting idea. I especially like that such a system, unlike the common practice of barnstars, would promote these awards as a community consensus process. Hopefully, this would avoid award cheapening that has been somewhat of a problem with the common barnstars.

In interests of symmetry, I would also propose a countering process: a project member can oppose any such award, and the awarding will not be done unless there are at least twice as many supporters as there are opponents. Digwuren 21:25, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Nomination

I would like to nominate Colchicum for the Soaring Swallow Award for his excellent work on Wikipedia:WikiProject Estonia. Obviously, the awarding itself would be pending until the rules get worked out. This should be a case so obvious I hope finding two (and perhaps more) seconders won't be hard. Digwuren 21:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)