User talk:Sander Säde

Note: Until 2007-07-06 I was editing as DLX

Please note that I will reply to your messages on this page, not on your talk page. If you prefer to have my replies on your talk page, please let me know.

User talk:RUReady2Testify

Thanks. --John 19:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome, but I am not sure it was any help. He replied - and I left another message to him as well [1]. We can only hope for the best... DLX 19:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I saw. I really appreciate your attempts to help this user. Very best wishes, --John 19:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Hello to John and DLX: I see you two have taken it upon yourselves to chastise me for not following WP rules in adding links to an entry on Estonia. For such a tiny thing as adding links you have both succeeded in making me feel as though I am under attack and have not made me feel welcome in the least. One of you has even criticised my spelling, despite the fact that his grammar is so bad that it is difficult at times to follow what he is saying.

I see here from your user pages that you have both been accused of committing violations far far more serious than adding "controversial links" (my "crime," note that it is not alleged that I altered he text in any way) I note that copyright violations of which John is accused of could actually put Wikipedia at financial risk in the form of potential legal liability to the owner of the images he "misappropriated."

My other crime is explaining myself too much on the talk pages. I'm not going to defend this right now, est my defense be a crime itself.

Thanks to you both for your warm welcome. RUReady2Testify 20:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

DLX, I incuded this note to you in John's discussion page. I reproduce it her for your edification and for the benefit of others who may be struggling to deal with your unfounded assertions of superior expertise as well as your inexplicable condescension: Note to DLX: BTW, you direct me to the Occupation museum, thank you very much. But before you make such a presumptuous reccomendation, you should endeavor to find out a little bit about the person you are addressing. I would never dream of reccomending to someone who is contributing to an article on estonia that they should visit a website that they are no doubt already familiar with. Your tip could be either your attempt to hurl an extreme insult or it could be a revelation of extreme ignorance and insensitivity on your part. For now, will take it as the latter. RUReady2Testify 17:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

For some reason that I have yet to discern, DLX has been behaving agressively towards me and my editing. He has also teamed up with user John in this endeavor. I see from his talk page that he has been accused of various violations, including vandalism. At least one of his entries is being considered for deletion. User John, with whom he has joined forces in his project of agressive editiing, has also been accused of some serious violations, including copyright violatinos which could cost WP money.

Does anyone have the time or the patience to tally up DLX's violations into a list, including the outcome of each dispute? RUReady2Testify 17:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Sigh. You don't understand, do you? John and me have been very patient with you and assumed good will from you. You reply with accusations and insults. Your edits have been more or less off-topic, and yet you claim to have some "deeper knowledge" then we, therefore giving you the right to edit articles against consensus. In any case, John has asked another admin to review this case (as I recommended this morning). If s/he sees those things that you accuse us of, then we will doubtlessly be warned or punished. If s/he doesn't, then that means we have one more person who agrees with us - ie. more consensus (see also a comment by Alexia Death). That is how Wikipedia works - when it comes to controversial edits, we try to reach a consensus.

If you feel that you have been slighted, please report John and me to WP:AN/I.

DLX 17:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. You forgot to sign in, here - and by two different utilities, you are based in Washington, USA ([2], [3]). DLX 17:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

That is interesting. I have asked for input at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents if you are interested. --John 18:08, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Very good, thank you. DLX 18:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

AlexiaDeath, thank you very much for your kind words of advice. Others here, namely John and DLX, could learn from your approach. I never would have thought that adding a couple of links would have been the subject of such controversy. But beyond that I never thought that another editor, let alone two such editors, would be so uncivilized in pointing this out.

To DLX: Sigh. This "comment" is uncivil and inappropriate. Since English is not your first language, you are forgiven for now. However, as you have made such noises more than once, I must demand that you follow WP rules and general norms of civilized behavior. Please do not address me in this manner.

Further, your message contains assertions that are simply untrue. You and John did not attempt to work with me. You and John started off in an extremely aggressive posture. You and John gave inadequate, summary "explanations" of your "reasons" for deleting my work, and then directed me to the very rules that you violated. (Here is some of your own (the two of you are treated as one hostile team, but this was John's, actually) advice that you should heed: "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it.")

Other items: Yes, I am in Washington, D.C. USA. I will be atending the dedication of the Victims of Communism Memorial next Tuesday. If anyone else will be in Washinton, please join us.

Related: The exchange between John and DLX in noting that I am in Washinton, D.C, seems carry an undertone of a fraud accusation, so I will add to my earlier comment on that. I never made any claims about who I am or where I am. (Perhaps If I had, I would have run into less trouble. I consider myself to be British-American-Estonian. My Dad is Estonian and my Mom is Irish. My two brothers and I are all named after our great-uncles (brothers of my dad's mother) who were executed by the Soviets for distributing propaganda, among other crimes. My nimikaim (namesake) (and that of one of my two brothers) is on one of the lists on the Occupation Museum web site. I have lived in England, Sweden, and California. I live and work in Washington, D.C., in the areas of law and public policy, though I originally started my college education in engineering and then went to graduate school in philosophy. I would not use my real name, as DLX has suggested he is thinking about doing, because as far as I have been able to determine, I am the only person in the world with my name. (How many Englishmen can say that?!) I try to use American spellings and punctuation in what I do on WP because I write something for publication here (in actual print on paper) every week and I do not want to have to switch back and forth on a regular basis. However, I am quite familiar with British usage and I can convert any written piece from one to the other or make any piece consistently one or the other. I will eventually put all this on my user site when I get a reprieve from defending my addition of two links to the Estonia entry. This description has necessarily just been a random, rambling rant, which is not how I wanted to present myself. I wanted to do a nice page. But I thought it would not hurt to add a couple of links to a story first. I could not have been more wrong. WP's motto should be: "It's all about the fight." meaning the fight between "editors."

BTW, I think the very fact that I have undertaken to explain my views should go a long way on WP discussions and disputes, but it does not seem to. I expected that even if someone disagrees with me, that they would at least appreciate my explaining myself. And perhaps, I thought, if someone disagreed, they too would explain. No such luck. John's impoverished communications to me were no explanations at all ("That's not how it works here." DLX: "Sigh.") and in fact were flat out wrong. See guidelines stating "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it."

John's edits of my works are against consensus.

DLX's edits are against consensus.

In fact, neither even attempted obtain a consensus.

On the original controversy, my edits are not controversial. If someone out there has convinced you that they are, then you need to address that person and set him straight. The mere fact that someone somewher denies that any occupation took place does not then convert that notion into a legitimate topic for discussion where both sides can be debated.

Additionally, your (DLX/John) assessment of the work of others is so cursory and cavalier that your revertsions have reverted errors back into the entry. For example, at the end of the list of links is a link that is out of alphabetical order. I have put it in its proper place at least three times and each time someone has reverted it because they are reflexively reverting all my edits.

Does the consensus rule apply to edits? I believe that it does. Adding and deleting are both editing.

I have to say again that typing "Sigh" (as DLX seems to be in the habit of) as a preface to a communication is a particularly nasty and rude thing and it much more of a salvo than a salutation. Undoubtedly I will get some kind of nasty, uncivil response. It truly appears that these "disputes" are manufactured by DLX and John and are in actuality nothing more than good-old-fashioned turf wars. It certainly seems that these two do not want others editing their work. But what is the rule that John quoted me? I think it translates to: "If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen." RUReady2Testify 21:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

DLX: Thank you for your technical help on the Jane Grigson entry. I hope this is an offer to get along. If so, I accept. RUReady2Testify 16:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

et-Wiki

Hi! I don't know if you have an account in Estonian Wikipedia, but if you have, could you please change et:Priozjorski_rajoon to Priozerski rajoon and all the mentions of Priozjorsk there to Priozersk. There is no ё in these words. Colchicum 16:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Done: et:Priozerski rajoon. Are others on et:Leningradi oblast correct? DLX 16:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:NPA

Please refrain from personal attacks in the future. If I see you at it again, they will be removed per WP:RPA. Thank you. --Ghirla^-трёп- 08:01, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I have reviewed the difference you provided, and see no personal attack in it. I suspect that you, Ghirlandajo, are engaging in vote suppression, by making bogus accusations in hope to scare away an editor you disagree with ideologically. As a form of harassment, it is against Wikipedia policy, and you must stop. Digwuren 09:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

See also User talk:Alexia Death#AfD process. Digwuren 09:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Accusation not worthy of any further comments or replies. DLX 10:35, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Bot

Hi! Do you know about User:AlexNewArtBot/EstoniaSearchResult? Colchicum 16:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Hello - yes, I do, search results are in my watchlist as well.

Thank you for expanding and creating several Estonia-related articles - especially because of the recent events here in Wikipedia, several Estonian editors (including myself) are no longer as active as we used to be - or we are just forced to battle Estonia-haters, instead of actually contributing to articles. Some Estonian editors have even left Wikipedia... just tired of endless "nazi" and "holocaust denial" accusations & Soviet-POV pushing. So, it is incredibly nice to see someone creating and expanding Estonia-related articles - and contributions being well sourced and NPOV. It is funny, how some editors are now attacking you because of that as well...

In any case, thank you once more. You have given me and other editors hope, that Wikipedia can stay what it started out to be, not just a battleground to re-play WWII.

DLX 17:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Tagging Estonia-related subjects

Leaving here this message myself just in case...

I am currently mass-tagging subjects related to Estonia, adding them to WikiProject Estonia. I wrote a small script to help me with that, available at User:DLX/tagwpe.js, which is in testing stage at the moment. You can add it to your scripts in the usual way, ie. adding importScript('User:DLX/tagwpe.js'); to your monobook.js. You will need also TWINKLE - and therefore, it will work only in Mozilla Firefox. Please note that this script is not ready for release, so I won't recommend using it as of now. I hope to have it fully tested in a few days, if you want, try it and let me know of any issues or ideas you might have. DLX 09:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I had trouble getting the script working in Firefox (or to be more precise, Iceweasel). Apparently, Firefox does not support leaving off the content parameter of the XMLHttpRequest.send method, even for GET queries. Consequently, I made a copy to User:Digwuren/tagwpe.js and fixed it. Feel free to reuse my changes.

Furthermore, thank you for an excellent example of Wikipedia scripting. Digwuren 12:32, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Good one :)

Just wanted to give you thumbs up on the las edit of the Bronze soldier :) I removed it hoping to spare the world from some russians stupidity disgracing the whole nation but if the want to have it, then this is the best way :)--Alexia Death 17:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. However, I am more interested in what Irpen will do about [4]. I used to have quite a lot of respect for Irpen, but some of his actions and comments have made me... re-think that, I guess. DLX 18:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Amusement

I have attempted to collect and systematise some of the amusing ideas of Petri Krohn into User:Digwuren/Petri Krohn's Story of Estonians. Originally, it was supposed to be just a funny story, but I now think it's best to add references to diffs where he has advocated particular peculiar ideas. The whole Bronze Night Affair is currently uncovered, though.

You're welcome to add new (and old) silly ideas there. It would be a shame to let such a source of amusement to go for waste when there's Uncyclopedia! Digwuren 18:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

{{WikiProject Estonia}} + your script

Your script, that adds the {{WikiProject Estonia}} templates is cool. You however managed to add the template to a redirect (see dif). I do not think this is what you intended to do. -- Petri Krohn 01:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

No, I did not intend to tag that page - thank you for reverting. I will see what I can do so it wouldn't tag redirect pages, I hope you don't mind if I test it with the same page? I'll revert all my edits there, of course. DLX 05:19, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I *think* it should be OK now. DLX 06:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Sources

Take a look at Talk:Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia#Fraudulent edits. Colchicum 12:33, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Deportations

Hi! Here are the Soviet deportations from Estonia. Colchicum 12:35, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

BTW, picture is needed there. If you know some relevant free picture, please add it. Colchicum 14:33, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Hello, and thanks for creating the article. However, only image that I can think of atm is Image:PlaqueMemorizingEstonianGovernment.jpg. I'll try to come up with some more images soon - and work on the article a bit as well. DLX 16:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Petri Krohn's behaviour

Thank you for your interest in topics regarding the Baltic republics and the Soviet occupation. This interests has undoubtedly familiarised you with tactics and behaviour of Petri Krohn.

I have prepared a thorough overview of these tactics, along with references to related Wikipedia policy, and posted it to his userpage, requesting that he stop such activities, especially representing private alternative histories on Wikipedia as thought they were fact.

Unfortunately, he proceeded to delete the request mere seven minutes later, along with an inflammatory edit summary. I do not believe this to have been a proper reaction.

Please, if that will not be too inconvenient, take a look at the situation, evaluate it, and consider expressing your evaluation in the appropriate manner.

Many thanks, Digwuren 16:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I have tried to distance myself from this dispute - but I must admit, Petri's behaviour has been out of line for a long while. His unsourced sovietophile edits are a big problem - I don't think he is as much Baltics-hater (baltophobe?), as a Soviet apologist. When it comes to discussion, then there are harsh accusations of holocaust denial, hate speech and so on - and whenever asked for evidence, he just replies with "do not feed the trolls" or some other insult. And when it comes to constructive discussions... well, he is always right and we, a cabal of Baltic trolls, are not worthy a discussion anyway. I think you might be right about WP:RFC/U or even WP:AC.

Now, to another matter - easier to talk this here. I see that you've had issues with tagwpe.js - by any chance, do you have Firebug loaded? Last version of Firebug has an issue - it starts to break AJAX requests. If that is the case, then just disabling Firebug, loading a page and enabling Firebug will fix this - until it breaks again, usually when debugging, but not always.

DLX 03:13, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

As for WP:AC -- well, in line with WP:AGF, I'm forced to express optimism that the WP:RFC/U will fulfill its purpose and solve the problem. If not, it will be an obvious following step, indeed -- albeit perhaps not the first following step.

As for tagwpe.js -- no, I do not have Firebug. (I confess: it has been quite a long time since I habitually coded in JavaScript: back then, layers were still a New Cool Technology That Regularly Broke the Browser.) However, I managed to get the script to work by merely adding explicit empty content literals to the GET request invocations. (Well, I did some reformatting, too, to better understand the issue, but that's besides the point.)

Hmm, that is weird... those empty literals should not be needed. In any case, I wrote some other minot WPE tools as well, will clean them up a bit & test, then release as one toolset. DLX 05:06, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

You might like to know that there is now an official work being done twoards RFC at User:Digwuren/Petri Krohn. If you have something to add, please do. Every diff helps.--Alexia Death 13:18, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-04-29 Occupation of Baltic states

Just to let you know the mediator is now asking for sources to be listed in the format he requires. Martintg 20:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you - and you've done a very good job with adding those articles/sources already. DLX 05:08, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:RFC/U on Petri Krohn filed

You might be interested to know that Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Petri Krohn has been filed. Digwuren 20:14, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

WWII and other wider scope articles

Should we mark these kind of articles like World War II under WikiProject Estonia? They have high importance to Estonia, but have quite big scope.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Suva (talk • contribs).

I am unsure on this. Digwuren has been tagging some of them. Perhaps you should ask about this in Wikipedia:WikiProject Estonia talk page? DLX 11:10, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

No Article on Estonian Beer

Hi DLX; There is no entry on Estonian Beer, although there are at least two places with red links that would link to such an entry. I mention this to you because you seem to be working on the Estonian project.

Under Beers of the world, there is a short entry for "Estonian and Finland" jointly:

Estonia and Finland Main articles: Estonian beer and Finnish beer Both of these countries are known for their traditional juniper beers. In Finland, this is known as Sahti and in Estonia it is called Koduõlu ("home beer"). This beer is made from rye or oat malts that are filtered through straw and juniper twigs. According to beerhunter Michael Jackson, it is by far the oldest continuous living tradition of beer making, representing nothing less than a direct link with Babylonian beer-making methods.

RUReady2Testify 16:05, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Heh... thank you for pointing this out, it is an excellent idea for the article... as for koduõlu, then I've made that myself as well. It may be a bit problematic to find good sources on Estonian beer, I don't have Jackson's book myself - but I will definitely add the article to my to-do list. I will be on vacation for the next week and I am not sure I have time to edit Wikipedia much - but at least I'll make some images to accompany the article ;). DLX 06:16, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

On calling people trolls

Just a reminder that, regardless of how riled up you get, it's not a good idea to call people trolls. In other words, if you're being called names, try to remain above that particular fray. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 06:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry... I just blew my top, seeing how fraudulent and flawed his outside view was. And I am deeply sick of Ghirla's repeated and direct accusations of trolling - and Petri's. I did not actually call him troll, though - although perhaps I should have. DLX 07:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

That's what I thought the situation was, yes. I'm watching that RfC closely at the moment, so anyone overstepping the mark will certainly be noticed. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 07:20, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I think I needed that warning, actually. Perhaps it is best that I'll take a short wiki-break... especially since my vacation did start today. DLX 08:05, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, I welcome every attempt to call me a troll, a vandal, and a crackpot. People who throw around such accusations against me don't stay in Wikipedia for a long time. --Ghirla^-трёп- 09:07, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Soooo... it is perfectly OK for you to call others trolls, but when others hint at you, you threaten them? DLX 10:07, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Award for best contributors of WP-Estonia

Could you please take a look at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Estonia#WP-EE_awards_for_best_contributors... an let me know what you think.--Alexia Death 09:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

mangled stub

Thanks for fixing that mangled stub. Some newbie editor started mucking around with templates and trashed it. There was no history, so I couldn't revert it.

I posted a notice at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Stub sorting/Discoveries, but it looks pretty dead over there, so I don't know how long it will be before I get a response. Horologium t-c 20:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

It seems that Valentinian already fixed the template fully. I really wish that high-visibility/use templates such as this would be automatically semi-protected. DLX 06:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Occupation of Baltic states

The guy on Occupation... seems to be searching for a WP:3RR trouble. Will see, whether he breaks the rule or not. E.J. 09:51, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Warned him for 3RR on his talk page already. He also keeps removing speedy deletion tag from Nazi occupation of the Baltics, which he created himself - and therefore is not allowed. DLX 09:53, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Just added this one to my watchlist as well. I've currently little time (like many others here), but will try to keep an eye on such things. E.J. 09:57, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Our experts

To appreciate their jugglery, take a look here. Familiar arguments, familiar participants, familiar shining ignorance, slightly different roles, however (no, I don't even mean ru-sib). Amazing. Colchicum 09:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)