Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Quotation marks and apostrophes)

This page is for discussing the existing policy of prohibiting typographically correct quotation marks. The WP:MOS section in question is Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Use straight quotation marks and apostrophes. For some background, see the Wikipedia entries on apostrophe (mark) and quotation mark.

I have copied the discussion from WP:MOS below, and moved it to its own page (this one) to give the debate more focus. The proposal below, by User:Susvolans, and supported by others including myself is to

• drop the requirement to use straight quotes.

For example, the section in WP:MOS could be simply removed without replacement.

Things to think about:

• Should Wikipedia express preference of one style of quotation marks or the other? For example, the MOS could favour proper marks, but cheerfully accept straight ones. (I am undecided on this issue.)
• The most immediate effect of allowing proper quotes would be that the titles of many articles can change. This would improve the typographic quality of Wikipedia a lot (titles are set in large type, so even Windows users would notice the change, which seems to be otherwise hidden to them in the default font and magnification). Because of the way English forms possessives, there are lots and lots of articles that could (and should, IMO) be moved. Mother's day to Mother?s day, etc. I will be overjoyed when that happens, but I also predict that this will be the greatest point of debate as soon as proper quotes are allowed, and we might as well discuss it here and now.

There are some related issues that are more complicated and which we can discuss as well, even though I believe they remove attention from the proposal itself:

• Should Wikimedia support this, and if so: how? For example, should the editor implement some kind of ?smart quotes? akin to many text processing applications? Should there at least be buttons? Or should some yet-to-be-invented combination of characters produce the proper quotes. (I think no because I am on a Mac and quite used to entering my own quotes. Others may disagree.)

To pre-empt some arguments: For a Wikipedia that supports proper quotes, check the German Wikipedia. As far as I can see, the issue of straight quotes isn?t even mentioned in the German MOS, and the whole project seems to work wonderfully anyway. I assume that people who don?t care or aren?t able to enter the proper quotes just use straight quotes, and other friendly souls with too much time on their hands change them. (German keyboards don?t have curly quotes either, and they run the same Wikimedia software as the English version does.) The situation seems to be the same for French Wikipedia (but I am not sure). Arbor 07:03, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

MediaWiki 1.5: time to drop straight quotation mark requirement?

When MediaWiki 1.5 comes out, the English language Wikipedia will switch to Unicode, and curly quotes can be put safely into the article source. I can see no good reason to keep WP:MOS#Use straight quotation marks and apostrophes after the switch. Susvolans (pigs can fly) 17:30, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

You mean apart from the fact that we have thousands upon thousands of articles that already uniformly have straight quotation marks and apostrophes? :)

If we can keep it enforced, I think I'd prefer to try to keep them all straight, jguk 18:14, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Those of us with a taste for professional typography would prefer proper quote marks. The only things that have been preventing more widespread adoption of proper quotes have been that it makes the wiki source hard to read and they can be hard to input. With UTF-8 wikisource and the "insert special characters" box on the edit pages both of these problems are obviated. It will not be hard to implement a robot to fix all the quotes in current articles. Implementation of professional typography (including proper quotes) is one of the two major remaining issues that makes Wikipedia unsuitible for professional print publication (the other being a drive to upload more images with print-quality resolution).

Definitely support officially preferring proper quotes, but of course cheerfully tolerating straight quotes.Nohat 22:04, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

The beauty of the wiki is that they're easy to edit. Introducing that would make it more difficult. violet/riga (t) 22:28, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

They would just appear as ordinary punctuation in the edit box. How is that harder to edit? Nobody would be forced to use them. Surely templates with parameters are far more complex than some curly quote marks, yet we have those... Nohat 00:56, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Smart quotes would be a real pain for those of us who sometimes use text editors to mark up articles, as they often copy in strange ways. Jonathunder 06:07, 2005 May 10 (UTC)

That's going to happen anyway with all the other special unicode characters like dashes and Greek letters, and mathematical symbols. Nohat 07:11, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Greek letters, mathematical symbols, and other special symbolic whatnot do not occur that often in most articles. I've even edited a few math articles in simple text editors without hitting a problem. Dashes can be a problem sometimes. Smart quotes, if not implemented with a great deal of care and consideration of cross-platform editing tools, could be a bigger problem than dashes. Jonathunder 02:06, 2005 May 12 (UTC)

I don't understand all the technical issues, but I would love to be able to use proper quotation marks. I always use proper typography on my own website and writing. I especially hate when I'm copying a quotation to Wikipedia:Press coverage and I have to change the proper typography to those ugly straight quotation marks. I sincerely hope we can find a way to implement this change as I've been waiting for it since I joined. — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:34, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

This sounds absolutely stupid to me. None of my keyboards have curly quotes on them, and I'm unlikely to go to the trouble of searching for a way to enter them (an attitude that I suspect will extend to the vast bulk of Wikipedia editors). Noisy | Talk 16:24, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

Tons of GUI programs have an algorithm called "smart quotes" built in to them—you type straight quotes, and the algorithm converts it to curlies if necessary based on rules as to the context of the quotes—it usually changes other punctuation characters and ligatures as well. So you type

"Hello--I'm typing 'straight quotes,' my dear AEvar."

and you get

“Hello—I’m typing ‘straight quotes,’ my dear Ævar.”

I may have missed the implications of using quote characters for italics and bold, but it should be possible to have smart quotes in the renderer, so that the wikitext keeps straight quotes but curlies get displayed in the HTML. So why not agitate for that instead? (Obviously it would have to be a language-specific feature.) Having just typed that example, I'm convinced by those who say this is too hard to type—and I'm on a Mac. It looks like on my Windows machine, I have to hold down Alt and press a sequence of numbers on the keypad—that's just ridiculous. It's definitely not wikiwiki (quick). TreyHarris 16:57, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

I have to say that a lot of people feel strongly about this issue, since, as most people don't seem to realize, the use of straight quotes is a bastardization of proper punctuation that was introduced with the modern keyboard. That said, I think we should look into using the TeX style of quotes, where the apostrophe is translated into a right quote, and the backtick is translated into a left quote. That way people would just have to get used to writing,

``Hello--I'm typing 'straight quotes,' my dear AEvar.

for

“Hello—I’m typing ‘straight quotes,’ my dear Ævar.”

Which is just as "wikiwiki", since it only introduces two more keystrokes per quotation. Also, it is backwards-compatible with the current use of straight double quotes. The only issue would be straight single quotes, which would not translate correctly in their current usage. —Sean κ. ⇔ 18:05, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

You must mean making the wikitext renderer convert (``) to (“), right? This would be going from markup in the database that is at least acceptable type-writing practice (if not typographically correct), to markup which is completely non-standard and rather ugly, to boot. Why replace a single character with two? And it doesn't address most of the problem: how to type single quotation marks, apostrophes, en dashes, em dashes, and figure dashes.

Unicode correctly solves this entire problem—just type the actual characters you want to enter. Why create an abstraction for plain text?

On a Mac it’s easy enough for anyone to type quotation marks and apostrophes without stretching their brain. I can’t believe there isn’t a single solution or add-on for Windows text fields out there in the world! —Michael Z. 2005-05-11 18:52 Z

It's not non-standard if you're used to writing in TeX. But I just realized that it wouldn't work, since two apostrophes, '', already have a meaning in wiki markup. —Sean κ. ⇔ 06:03, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Oh [[deity of your choice]] no ... please noooo ... Firstly, can you image the overhead on the database as people decide they will change every quote in every article (and even if we tell them please don't they will) but also not everyone will be (a) browsing using a unicode-acceptable browser, (b) editing using a 'rich' text editor. I could *only* support this if every keyboard in use worldwide to edit WP had left- and right- single- and double- apostrophe keys for the direct input of these characters. Just as with the input of other special characters, errors happen because of misentry, and the javascript version below each edit box (if turned on) isn't a great deal of use as the characters are (ime) too small to see accurately too. For the avoidance of doubt, therefore, a strongly against this proposal from me. --Vamp:Willow 18:34, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

I have to agree with no here - first, not eveyone thinks the curly ones look better; second, direct entry is much more difficult for many users; three, it changes the software and/or the usage in a way that makes things more complicated Trödel|talk 20:00, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

(a) is there really a browser still in use that can't deal with typographic quotation marks? Even the Lynx text-based browser displays these acceptably on an ISO-Latin or pure-ASCII display.

If typographic quotation marks display correctly, but look worse in your browser, then it sounds like an issue with poorly-designed fonts or bad font rendering. This web site's display should be aimed at working acceptably in the average browser, but let's not use the wrong character because some font has an ugly version of the right one. Curly quotes have worked in all mainstream browsers at least since 2001.

(b) I agree that no one should be required to type typographic characters that aren't standard on their keyboard layout. A smart-quotes renderer built into Wikimedia would completely eliminate any differences in typographic quotes and typewriter quotes in articles, but even without one I don't see it as a problem. —Michael Z. 2005-05-11 21:26 Z

As I pointed out above, it would be perfectly possible to put the proper quote marks into the special character insert box that appears on the edit page. Then all you would have to do is click on the quote marks that you want. Do the people who oppose curly quotes in the wikitext also oppose accented letters? Nohat 21:08, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry but there is no way I want to click on a button to insert specific symbols when all I currently have to do is press <SHIFT><2>! I can't even begin to think how much that would slow my typing down. By all means use smart-quotes (perhaps preference-configurable), but they shouldn't be required when writing the text. violet/riga (t) 21:49, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

I certainly wouldn't want to require their use. All I want is permission to use them. — Knowledge Seeker দ 22:08, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

• Strong support. Besides being "right," smart quotes" will make the Wiki look better. To steal a phrase, Wikipedia is Not a Typewriter. --FCYTravis 22:44, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. No thank you. To echo others, this would merely be an annoyance. Being able to store text in Unicode does not mean we should make it harder to edit. Now that greek characters, etc. will appear in-line I will probably have to compose them in another window and paste them in--irritating enough for those few special cases. I will not be doing that every time I use a quote (or a dash, for that matter). Demi ^T/_C 02:56, 2005 May 13 (UTC)

• Support with enthusiasm. Especially, I would like to see the death of the blanket prohibition of correct quotation marks, and the implied rule against typographer’s apostrophes. A technology-induced typographical restriction in the MoS needs to go the way of the Dodo when the technology actually improves. Issues of keyboard layout are tied to operating systems and shouldn't really muddle the debate too much; many Mac users have used to typographic punctuation signs for decades. (By analogy, Windows keyboards don't prevent Wikipedia from using proper dashes, so they shouldn't prevent proper quotation marks either.) On the other hand, I am no so sure about having the Wikimedia software support or enforce “smart quotes”. There are a gazillion issues here (for example, multilingual support) that go far beyond the relatively modest proposal of removing the no typographer’s quotes rule from the MoS. In any case, the most visible change to Wikipedia will likely not be the changed quotation marks, but the changed article titles. These are set in larger type, and often include possessive apostrophes. Indeed, these titles are probably the greatest annoyance to the typographically trained eye on Wikipedia, and I will perform a happy dance when all those straight typewriter apostrophes get replaced by the proper symbol (see apostrophes). I am confident that a bot can quickly add the necessary redirects from Mother's Day to Mother’s Day. However, this issue would likely benefit from a longer discussion in a more visible place. I am not sure how and where to start such a debate. How should we proceed? Arbor 11:35, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wading through all the above responses I find precious little commenting on the actual proposal. Most of the opposing voices are against the idea of prohibiting straight quotation marks, which nobody advocates, or against extending Wikimedia software with an engine for “smart quotes”. However, the proposal is just to allow proper typographical marks, which is currently forbidden. So, the bold thing would be to take this debate as evidence of widespread lack of opposition against allowing typographical quotation marks, and to consequently remove the paragraph from MOS. (But I’m a wimp so I don’t dare… I do already feel like quite the vigilante for using proper quotes in this paragraph.) We need a more focussed debate. I also note that the German Wikipedia uses nice curly quotes and apostrophes (and guillemets and fancy dashes and whatnot) and seems to be doing just fine, without Wikimedia help or widespread re-engineering of German keyboards. Arbor 19:46, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You are quite right. — Chameleon 20:14, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I don't see how this can be enforceable either way, but personally I would object to smart quotes since it's too easy to do them wrong - both for newbies and for many computer programs. Radiant_* 14:06, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

Radiant, are you just opposed to smart quotes (i.e., more-or-less-automatically inserted quotes), or are you objecting to the removal of the ban on typographer?s quotes? Arbor 14:10, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Support The US International keyboard (which everyone should use) makes smart apostrophes ez-pz ?? Smart quotes probably are too, but I don't regularly use them. This is another instance where griping about keyboards and browsers from Americans looks like whining to international users who've had to put up with alternative input methods since typewriters were invented. SchmuckyTheCat 15:08, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. There are some browsers and editors that by design or flawed default configuration don't handle editing of curly quotes correctly. (I had a problem recently with Opera until I fiddled with its assumptions about page encoding.) Users may find themselves munging pages without realizing it—Opera was inserting a question mark into the text wherever a curly quote appeared—or have to replace all curly quotes with straight quotes in any passage of text they try to edit. This isn't a Good Thing, and until we're confident that the vast, vast majority of users won't have these problems I can't support a change in policy. Note that I strongly oppose the introduction of typographer's quotes into article titles. That would result in a slew of duplicated articles from people who look under the "wrong" title, and make wikilinking that much more of a chore. --TenOfAllTrades (talk/contrib) 15:17, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Renderer for quotation marks, etc.

The wiki text renderer should definitely be extended to handle existing wiki text, and convert it to curly quotes, apostrophes, and dashes. This isn’t a trivial problem—apostrophes can mess up the apparent nesting of single quotation marks. Apostrophes can also appear in strange places, and I don’t think even Microsoft has figured out how to make ‘smart quotes’ smart enough. And there are also cases where typewriter quotes shouldn’t be converted.

Examples:

• cut ’n’ paste [apostrophes for omitted letters]
• summer of ’05 [omitted numbers; some ‘smart’ quotes renderers put an opening single quotation mark here]
• 6′-8″ tall [primes, or even typewriter quotes, should be used for feet and inches]
• Latitude 49° 53′ N. [ditto for lat./long.]

—Michael Z. 2005-05-11 19:05 Z

I don't think even Microsoft has figured out how to make smart quotes smart enough. Indeed. Just google "smart quotes" to see how much mumbling and gnashing of teeth they can cause. Jonathunder 01:57, 2005 May 12 (UTC)

I've never had a problem with the WordPerfect smart quotes. Another reason not to use Word? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:40, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't see "wrong" smart quotes as a particular issue, as someone who cares about the issue, or a bot, can put the right ones in, leaving the engine to do the bulk of the work. Susvolans (pigs can fly) 12:23, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

A few assorted objections:

1. I use NEdit for creating large articles. It doesn't support anything beyond 8-bit ANSI or equivalent. Many other basic text editors have the same limitation.
2. I use a US-layout keyboard under Linux/X11. I'm sure there's a compose-key combination that will produce curly quotes, but danged if I know what it is. Most people have similar problems.
3. Smart quote parsing in MediaWiki is a bad idea -- when using smart quotes in Word, I've found about a half-dozen situations where Word chooses the wrong mark.
4. There are still a few web browsers out there -- such as most for Win98 -- that don't support curly quotes properly. Usually, this results in such quotes being replaced by question marks.
5. Since most editors don't know how to type curly quotes, heavily-edited articles will have a mix of straight quotes, curly quotes, and the stray question mark.

Carnildo 07:31, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There is a detailed list of browser issues with Unicode wikis in German atde:Wikipedia:Umstellung auf Unicode#Getestete_Browser. Susvolans (pigs can fly) 12:31, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)