Talk:Azerbaijani SS volunteer formations

Azizbekov

There’s a lot of POV editing made by User:Azizbekov. The book that he quoted mentions Azerbaijan only once, and in the following context:

In the summer of 1944 a decision had been taken to create a Turkestani volunteer unit for the Waffen-SS, and existing Turkestani volunteers serving within the German Army, along with their German commanding officer were transferred en masse into the Waffen-SS. In addition, volunteers from Azerbaijan, Kirghistan, Uzbekistan and Tadzhikistan were absorbed into this new unit which took on the title Ost Musselmanisehes Division der SS (Eastern Moslem Division of the SS).

Note that the book calls this unit Turkestani, however Azizbekov changed Turkestani to Azerbaijani-Turkic. The reasons for such POV editing are not clear. The part about atrocities is an OR as well. The book only says:

During the suppression of the Warsaw Uprising in July 1944, these Moslem volunteers were attached to the infamous Dirlewanger Brigade, notorious for the hideous atrocities committed wherever it operated. Nowhere near sufficient recruits were forthcoming to bring the division up to its nominal strength.

No particular mention of Azerbaijanis is made in the book, while Azizbekov misquoted the source again. The picture of mufti of Jerausalem says that he is pictured with “Soviet Muslim volunteers in German army in Berlin” [1], Azizbekov changed that to “Azerbaijani members of the Waffen-SS”. I would like to ask third party users to check this article for neutrality. --Grandmaster 11:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not understand why I am attacked by a second user now for writing about Azerbaycan-Germany connection. One user already tried to get another article deleted. Azerbaycanis did important thing to try liberate their homeland from Soviet teror, but we must not glorify nazis, and write article so polish and other hurt popeple underrstand. I am new to wiki so this is confuseing.Azizbekov 16:40, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I re-add info and change some word. Maybe grandmaster is right. I am interested in this period of azeri history - I just did not want to sound I am naxi and support this. On image of the mufti, I find it here http://www.germanwarmachine.com/hitlersforeignlegions/exploitingbalkan.htm and it says they are azeri, you can also agree by his arm patch. Azizbekov 16:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I did not find the image of mufti at that URL. Stop making POV edits. Grandmaster 04:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you missed it. Scroll down on this page, I see it fine: http://www.germanwarmachine.com/hitlersforeignlegions/exploitingbalkan.htm and an enlargement: http://www.germanwarmachine.com/hitlersforeignlegions/images/exploitingbalkan/162.htm

Is it ok now?Azizbekov 05:32, 7 August 2007 (UTC) Also, you can see their Azerbaijani patch very clearly, right?Azizbekov 05:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Deleted unsourced POV and changed the heading to "Participation" since there was no sourced info on any atrocities. Azizibekov, please provide sources. Ehud 05:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

All sources have been provided, it is not my job to make you read it, go read on the massacre of poles, or maybe you are OK with Nazi activity?Azizbekov 05:44, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Ehud is right. You add this paragraph to the article:

First they took part in massacre of 50,000 civilians in the Wola massacre, then moved to the Old Town (another 5,000 sick and wounded murdered after the Polish forces withdrew from the area, the remaining 35,000 being sent to concentration camps) and then to Czerniaków and Powiśle - along the Vistula.

And cite no source for this info. Is it your original research or you can back up this statement with relialble sources? --Grandmaster 06:13, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Azizbekov, I am acting in accord with Wiki rules. You indicate the unsourced information about alleged human right abuse record and providing unsourced numbers. This makes it unacceptable with Wikipedia rules. [2]

Coming to my national origin and your comment on my history, I will not tolerate that insulting attitude. I would appreciate if Administrators could warn the user for starting personal attacks on my national identity and making sarcastic remarks on my ancestors[3].

Nothing makes me a fake Jew. This article is not made "Nazi friendly". It would have been Nazi friendly if I deleted any information relating to extermination of Jews, Polish or any other ethnicities for that matter.

If sources for the part of article I removed are provided by you, it would come into accord with Wikipedia rules. You can't just get the numbers out of nowhere and post them into the article, OR get them from some source which claims there have been massacres by Nazis, AND relate it to Azeris serving in German Army. For now, I will revert it to previous version until the sources are provided. Ehud 06:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Sources are not provided again and Azizbekov refuses to do so. This is against Wikipedia regulations. Ehud 05:37, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

You are doing nothing according to wikipedia rules, nor showing any compassion for the suffering and indignity of Poles and some Jews who were in Warsaw in 1944. Calling you a fake jew when you really are one is a not of fact not a personal attack. Again, I cannot force you read to sources, only provide them. I added some more and hope this time you will read them.Azizbekov 05:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Azizbekov, I do follow Wikipedia rules. Again, you can jump back and forth trying hard to present me as a "fake Jew", this does not and will not change my ethnicity.

I made several changes to your contributions to this article. Below are the explanations:

* You're trying very hard to present the Azerbaijanis as animals thus calling the heading "Murderous crew"; I suppose that's your primary target. I changed the heading of the article to Participation of Azerbaijani conscripts in operations in Poland for the following reasons:

1) The section talks about Azerbaijani brigades' attachment to Dirlewanger Brigade describing its participation even though nowhere in sources does it describe your additions such as "During the Warsaw Uprising in July, this unit was attached to the infamous Dirlewanger Brigade, notorious for atrocities wherever it operated". Azerbaijani battalions may or may not have participated in specific actions within Dirlewanger Brigade; therefore your addition "wherever operated" should be excluded;

2) The sources I requested for the following text (Dirlewanger Brigade took part in massacre of 50,000 civilians in the Wola massacre, then moved to the Old Town (another 5,000 sick and wounded murdered after the Polish forces withdrew from the area, the remaining 35,000 being sent to concentration camps) and then to Czerniaków and Powiśle - along the Vistula.) relating it to Azerbaijanis were not presented. All you did is refer it to a source describing the events which I appreciate, yet again nowhere in the source does it mention Azerbaijanis per se. Now, I am not saying that Azerbaijani conscripts may have not participated. It is just logical to refer to a source where the Azerbaijanis are mentioned, if you indicate they have committed atrocities according to this specific source;

3) Azerbaijanis per se were not called "murderous crew" as you would like to label them. This is an allegation. The source clearly states "..."The 29th Division of Waffen SS Rona" (Russian anti-Communist formation that under the command of Miziestlaw Kaminski, SS Brigadenfuhrer, left Russia together with the German Army), two Azerbaijan Battalions, and also Ukranians, Cossacks and Turkmenians. They were the "murderous crew" (as even Germans called them) who raped and shot women-even those who were lying in hospitals" Therefore, the quote is either an alleged opinion that is applied to one of the groups of ethnicity, or is applied to all groups mentioned in the source but definitely not specifically to Azerbaijanis only. I corrected the text mentioning the whole quote leaving it to a reader to determine who was called "murderous crew", and not to your biased and choosing judgement

* I made minor corrections to the quotes from Memoirs of Lieutenant Thieme. First I italicized all of them for being a quote/excerpt from memoirs and in the beginning of the quotes indicated whose memoirs this text belongs to. Second, I added a sentence about Hitler's orders on Warsaw. Ehud 19:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Azizbekov, the picture that you claim shows Azeris in Warsaw actually shows Armenians in Greece: [4] So it should be moved to an appropriate article. --Grandmaster 05:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Grandmaster. These picture actually is a picture of Armenian SS soldiers in Greece. I removed the picture. Ehud 06:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Grandmaster, lets add the picture to Armenian SS article. because Ar man from panaryan.com forum is notorious for his credibility. VartanM 07:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Description of Insignia

Not a part of the above discussion... I noted that the image of the patch/insignia does not match the textual description, which is blue-red-blue with a crescent and a five-pointed star. The patch I see is blue-red-green, with a crescent and an eight-pointed star. My inclination is to do a minor edit to make the textual description conform to the image... unless I'm misunderstanding, and the patch described in the text is something other than what the image shows. Anyone who knows is encouraged to enlighten me on this... Xenophon777 19:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)