Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chaim Dov Keller: Difference between revisions

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Chaim Dov Keller

Does not fit the criteria of WP:BIO PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 00:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 00:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete unless sources giving significant coverage are found Corpx 01:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Not notable. Chocolatepizza 01:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The lack of reliable sources is a major concern here for this subject. There are also notability issues as well. --S iva1979^{Talk to me} 02:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as per above. Yehoishophot Oliver 03:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as per above. The article claims notability, but without any citations. Fails WP:BIO as it is. ~~May even be a speedy delete~~ — Becksguy 05:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
D - non notable person, WP:BIO. Speedy, snowball close, anyone? G iggy\^Talk 06:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep until the procedure actually mentioned at WP:BIO has been gone through. Namely, it says only that If the article can not be improved or is clearly not an appropriate subject for Wikipedia, then it could be nominated for AfD. No one has said the article cannot be improved. The name gets nearly 500 Google hits. Absence of sources is not sufficient for deletion here. Charles Matthews 07:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have added references, and expanded the article. Please reconsider votes based solely on the absence of references. Charles Matthews —The preceding signed but undated comment was added at 17:07, August 25, 2007 (UTC).

- Further comment: I'm glad to see the article transformed into a longer piece. There is clearly a NPOV discussion going on about it, but as far as I'm concerned Keller is clearly enough a notable figure of controversy, and there should be an article here on those grounds. Charles Matthews 11:14, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Only 62 unique ones once you exclude wikipedia [1] with many of them mirrors of wikipedia that do not mention the word wikipedia in them. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 13:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, with all due respect, the absence of sources is grounds for deletion, per WP:BIO: "Ultimately, and most importantly, all content must be verifiable using reliable sources...". Also see WP:NOTE. In this case, the subject may be notable, but reliable secondary sources are needed to establish that. Further, if your interpretation of that clause in WP:BIO was correct, no article could ever be deleted, because any article could be improved, except for obvious non-encyclopedic ones. At this point, the article is essentially the same as when it was created on April 4th. There are zero references. It was nominated for WP:PROD for the same reason (WP:BIO) on July 30, and then contested. If people want to keep this article, the solution is to find sources and place them, and this can be done as the debate continues. I saw one case where consensus changed from delete to keep because of the work done on sourcing during the debate. — Becksguy 15:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It takes a few seconds to find other references, to "Chaim Keller", or "Rabbi Keller". Also, with due respect, the guy can be presumed notable enough from 62 references. I came here out of particular concern on the proposal to close by invoking 'snowball'. Snowballing votes compiled over a period of at most seven hours strikes me as particularly a worry. WP:BIO says debates will run for 5 days, not that they will be closed while you are asleep. Also the full citation runs as follows Ultimately, and most importantly, all content must be verifiable using reliable sources, and, if the subject is living, we must follow the policy at our policy for biographies of living people. So it must, but simply killing the debate when less than 10% of its alloted span has run is not an 'ultimate' test at all.

Charles Matthews 07:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do any of the sources give "significant coverage"? Also, I agree that Snowball Delete should not be an option for AFDs, so as to give contributers more time to respond Corpx 07:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Charles? Leave me alone. Stop stalking my AfD contributions. And stop making stuff up - nothing you've said asserts any reason to keep the article. I'd expect better from an ArbCom member... G iggy\^Talk 07:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:STALK: Wikistalking refers to the act of following an editor to another article to continue disruption. Not doing that. Valid criticism of your wish to snowball discussions in a few hours is shared by someone else on this page. And I've referenced the article. Charles Matthews 07:53, 25 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep 1 As the head of a prominent yeshiva (Telshe yeshiva (Chicago)) he is notable. 2 The web is wrong place to look for citations of rosh yeshivas; try looking in the Jewish Press (not replicated on the Web) --Redaktor 00:21, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep- although, per the deletion policy, lack of sources is valid reason for deletion, I agree with Charles's other points. The subject is notable, and the sources he has provided are enough to make the article keep-able. --Boricuaeddie 00:32, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep this notable rabbi (many articles about rabbis start small and are built up, so it's no excuse to delete them without asking for editorial input first.) Rabbi Chaim Dov Keller is probably one of the best known rabbis in Chicago at the present time. He is not a congregational rabbi, but serves as the co-rosh yeshiva ("dean") of the largest yeshiva in Chicago. He is mentioned in key articles relating to Haredi Judaism. A Google search for "Chaim Dov Keller" yields over 470 hits (a large number for such a person in the world of Orthodox Judaism) many connected to numerous and significant publications in the world of American Orthodox Judaism and particularly Haredi Judaism for which he is leading spokesman and scholar with Agudath Israel of America. He co-heads the Telshe yeshiva (Chicago) and he has played a major role is speaking out on the issue of the messianic claims concerning Rabbi M.M. Schneerson of Lubavitch, see Controversies of Chabad#The soul as "the essence of God". Note that it is (mostly) the pro-Chabad editors who are (pushing for) voting to delete...Wikipedia is not chabad.org! IZAK 07:50, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Is this a claim of WP:CANVASSING? — Becksguy 22:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletions. IZAK 07:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Google hits do not measure notability, as it must be provided through reliable sources. If anyone can cite any of these sources, I'll gladly change my vote Corpx 07:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Coprx: The point I was making was that those Google hits refer to reliable articles and sources. I am now working on bringing some of those into the article. IZAK 08:30, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi again: Take a look at the article now. IZAK 12:21, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, notable rabbi and rosh yeshiva, no need to delete a stub that just needs expanding. --MPerel 08:47, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep references have since been added. --Shuki 08:56, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep He is very notable and the article is fine as a stub. --Jayrav 14:50, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Thanks to Charles Matthews for jumping in and kicking this AfD up into a real discussion. On the face of it, it now appears that there are sufficient references to make Keller notable. However, I am not sure that the references are credible. Keller is a religious fundamentalist, much like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and James Dobson. Keller’s statement about a gay student association (it’s an “abomination”) could well have come out of Falwell’s mouth. Fundamentalists (of all religions) believe that they are right, have the only true religion, and everyone else is wrong, regardless. These people are highly intolerant and have used advocacy journalism and other means (including extreme means) to push their agenda. Neutral and objective reporting is not true in many parts of the world (including the US — e.g. Fox News). Since we are supposed to cite independent, objective and reliable sources, I cannot agree that notability has been established here, until the sources have been run through various human rights and watchdog organizations, and with publications doing the kind of work that FAIR Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting does. So no, I’m not changing my recommendation yet. But I withdraw mention of a speedy—this one may take more than 5 days. — Becksguy 21:52, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Becksguy: You are making a huge error. Keller is not like Falwell or the others you quote. He is not concerned with making pronouncements to the world at all. Rabbi Keller is only working within the orbit of Haredi Jewry and expressing it's views vis-a-vis other JEWISH Orthodox groups. The issue of gays is not Keller's invention because ALL of Orthodoxy, be it Haredi or modern Orthodox condemns it since it violates a Biblical commandment that is part of the Orthodox belief system. So Rabbi Keller's significance, especially as a living rabbi has more to do with internal struggles and it is no use killing the messenger if you don't like the message. If you hate Keller you will hate all Orthodox Jews because essentially he speaks as a quintessential Orthodox rabbi. You seem to miss a point here that there is an additional hatred of Keller by the Chabad people because he has denounced their false messianism by their worshipping Rabbi Schneerson as the messiah and even as a god, and I suspect which is why they tried to get this article about him prodded and are now pushing to have him dumped altogether from Wikipedia, but all this maneovering cannot cover up the basic truths and issues and what Keller represents so that hopefully you do not misunderstand what is happening here. IZAK 22:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Non-notable, and seems to be guilty of WP:SYNTH as well (there is no record of his views…) Avi 04:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Avi: What you are saying is not clear. There are segements quoting entire parts of articles written by Rabbi Keller, and since when is it "WP:SYNTH" to quote newspapers and magazines read by Haredim that quote the subject of this article? IZAK —Preceding unsigned comment added by IZAK (talk • contribs) 09:09, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
Keep. Notable among the Ultra-orthodox Jewish community and probably also outside it, especially for his anti-Messianic stance against Chabad, as mentioned above. Sources not available on the Intarnet but are probably available in Printed religious Jewish magazines. No good reason to delete. Nahum 04:05, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You can cite sources that are not on the internet, as long as they're verifiable Corpx 04:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like the only controversial section and that which lacks sources is "Views." This section may need to be deleted or revised. No reason to delete the whole article. -- Nahum 04:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All the refs in the article are essays written by him or articles that only give him mention in passing, neither of which asserts notability Corpx 05:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Corpx: You are wrong. Many of the articles are written by Rabbi Keller. Secondly he is quoted in many other articles directly. Thirdly you are being ridiculous when you say "You can cite sources that are not on the internet, as long as they're verifiable" which is like saying that "you will need sources for a source" -- either a source is a source or it isn't and it is not for you decide that now Wikipedians need to provide "double source"! Finally, even if statements are made in passing, they may still be the only way that the notabality of Orthodox and certainly Haredi rabbis can be determined since so few of them actually write Haredi "public opinion" pieces in secular mediums or the general media. IZAK 08:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per IZAK --Yeshivish 04:44, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Heads a yeshiva and is an American Haredi leader. gidonb 05:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Many NPOV violations and NOR problems (e.g. attributing his personal views to Aguda as a whole). When all these problematic parts are removed (and they should), there is little left that actually asserts his notability. JFW | T@lk 10:46, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- JFW: It is suprsiing that you are not aware of Rabbi Keller's stature in the American Agudath Israel movement, particulrly when he has written many key articles and "position papers" expressing Agudah's views to the world that tracks Haredi life. IZAK 08:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - IZAK: I was not attacking Rabbi Keller, please reread my comment. I accept your statement that Keller is not like the Christian fundamentalists I mentioned, and I'm sorry you are upset. I refuse to get in the middle of a fight involving Jewish Orthodoxy, especially when I know very little about it (I had to look up Chabed). We are here to discuss whether the article meets WP article requirements. In my comment, I was trying to establish an understanding of why news sources involved in (or too close to) fundamentalist issues, religious schisms, contentious issues within a religious group, or any other polarizing issues, have to be looked at especially hard. This is necessary to determine if they are performing credible, neutral, and balanced reporting, and have a reputation of doing so. I'm not looking at this as a debate on fundamentalism or the religious issues involved, just whether Keller is, or is not notable. He has zero references in The New York Times and in both the major general circulation daily newspapers in Chicago—The Chicago Tribune and the Chicago Sun Times. And neither does the Yeshiva. To me, that indicates lack of notability. Furthermore, being the head of a yeshiva, or a church, or a college does not, per se, make one notable. And I agree with the last comment from corpx. — Becksguy 11:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Becksguy: Your comments are appreciated, however you are still missing the point. If one were to wait or reply upon The New York Times as an absolute source for biographical material about notable rabbis, let alone Orthodox or Haredi rabbis, then Wikipedia would have close to zero articles about current living or recent rabbis. Thus far, it has been up to editors familiar with the subject at hand to decide if the rabbis or personalities at hand are notable and in turn that is backed up by the published material that is related to those subjects. It all depends on one's orientation, to know what is important as a source and what is not. How on Earth could any articles be written about any notable Haredi rabbis if they avoid the secular media and very little is available in other sources? That is where the expertise, and consensus, of EXPERIENCED, RELIABLE, and TRUSTWORTHY editors is a key. Just as quite often, "new editors" are not allowed to edit general Wikipedia articles in all areas until such time as their reliability and editing "credentials" can be relied upon, similarly in cases where it is important to SEEK out and elicit the INPUT from experienced editors. This is something that User:PinchasC tried to skip and also you seem not to grasp. In this case, The Jewish Observer magazine, as the official magazine of Agudath Israel is key, and the role of the Yated Ne'eman (United States) as a newspaper guided by the Agudah leadership is crucial because that is where one can "hear it from the horse's mouth" so to speak. Unless a rabbi has written books that are widely known, which not all do, then one must rely upon the sources closest to him, and in this case (of Rabbi Keller) they are there and full of thorough articles that express his views and those of that segement of the Haredi population he represents and speaks for. To ignore or minimise it's importance would be a great shame, and an encyclopedic loss to Wikipedia. IZAK 08:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep a shaper of litvishe yeshivishe guys should be noteble to them--יודל 16:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wait for source citations, which should be available, leaning towards Keep. The article notes he is head of the Telse Yeshiva, was spokesperson for Agudat Yisrael of America, and describes his role in Yated Ne'eman (United States). This is easily sufficient notability to satisfy WP:BIO. POV and citation problems can be fixed. An AfD discussion assesses whether the topic is a notable and verifiable topic, not whether the current article is a quality article. Religious sources and media of notable religious organizations are perfectly acceptable reliable sources to establish notability of religious subjects and figures. Notability in the field, not notability in general media, is the standard, and that is met here. There is no problem I can see that can justify a delete vote. --Shirahadasha 17:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 50: / Line 50: @@
 Hi Becksguy: Your comments are appreciated, however you are still missing the point. If one were to wait or reply upon The New York Times as an absolute source for biographical material about notable rabbis, let alone Orthodox or Haredi rabbis, then Wikipedia would have close to zero articles about current living or recent rabbis. Thus far, it has been up to editors familiar with the subject at hand to decide if the rabbis or personalities at hand are notable and in turn that is backed up by the published material that is related to those subjects. It all depends on one's orientation, to know what is important as a source and what is not. How on Earth could any articles be written about ''any'' notable Haredi rabbis if they avoid the secular media and very little is available in other sources? That is where the expertise, and consensus, of EXPERIENCED, RELIABLE, and TRUSTWORTHY editors is a key. Just as quite often, "new editors" are not allowed to edit general Wikipedia articles in ''all'' areas until such time as their reliability and editing "credentials" can be relied upon, similarly in cases where it is important to SEEK out and elicit the INPUT from experienced editors. This is something that User:PinchasC tried to skip and also you seem not to grasp. In this case, ''[[The Jewish Observer]]'' magazine, as the official magazine of Agudath Israel is key, and the role of the ''[[Yated Ne'eman (United States)]]'' as a newspaper guided by the Agudah leadership is crucial because that is where  one can "hear it from the horse's mouth" so to speak. Unless a rabbi has written books that are widely known, which not all do, then one ''must'' rely upon the sources closest to him, and in this case (of Rabbi Keller) they are there and full of thorough articles that express his views and those of that segement of the Haredi population he represents and speaks for. To ignore or minimise it's importance would be a great shame, and an encyclopedic loss to Wikipedia. [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] 08:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * '''Keep''' a shaper of litvishe yeshivishe guys should be noteble to them--[[User:Yidisheryid|יודל]] 16:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
+'''Wait''' for source citations, which should be available, leaning towards [[Keep]]. The article notes he is head of the [[Telse Yeshiva]], was spokesperson for [[Agudat Yisrael of America]], and describes his role in [[Yated Ne'eman (United States)]]. This is easily sufficient notability to satisfy [[WP:BIO]]. POV and citation problems can be fixed. An AfD discussion assesses whether the topic is a [[WP:N|notable]] and [[WP:V|verifiable]] topic, not whether the current article is a quality article.  Religious sources and media of notable religious organizations are perfectly acceptable [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] to establish notability of religious subjects and figures. Notability in the field, not notability in general media, is the standard, and that is met here. There is no problem I can see that can justify a delete vote. --[[User:Shirahadasha|Shirahadasha]] 17:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)